Small block engine won't start now need help!

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fbcuda69

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My 69 barracuda setup is a 360 block with j heads and 340 spec camshaft. I have ecu on unit on the car (orange box with mopar original black coil and 1/4 ohm ballast resistor). My alternator, voltage regulator and starter relay are new.
The engine is basically new and the car had been starting fine, but the engine still needed to be timed. Yesterday, again the car started up fine and I got to where the car was idling much better and the vacuum at manifold was holding a pretty steady 18-20 range. However when I hooked up the vacuum line from distributor to the elec. choke edelbrock (vacuum port on passenger side no vacuum at idle) and removed the vacuum gauge line, the timing seemed to jump 10 degrees and wasn't idling quite as good. It seemed like the car was idling at it's best at about 5 degrees btdc, without the vacuum line hooked up. Last thing I did was have my brother run the engine up to 2500 rpm to get a reading, after that the motor started running sluggishly for a minute or two and then conked out like it would if you had just ran out of gas, which I thought is what happened. ( I did put some gas in the car and fuel is getting to carb)
The motor cranks like it wants to start, but doesn't kick over. I checked the voltage at the battery with multimeter and that tested fine at about 13 volts. The funny thing though is that my voltage meter when key is switched on now only is reading about 12 volts, whereas before it was reading just over 13 all the time.

I checked the primary and secondary resistance of mopar ignition coil and the primary was at .4 ohms (which seems low to me) and the secondary was right at 10,000 ohms, which I believe is just about right. I also pulled the the number one spark plug wire to see if I had spark, and there was a blue spark between plug and metal. I tested the ballast resistor with the two wires pulled and it was reading .25 ohms and there is no indication of it being fried on the back or front. Lastly, even though the timing chain is a new double roller, I did pull the distributor cap off and had someone crank it to make sure the rotor was turning, which it was. The ignition switch does click when turning the key, but I am sure there is a better way to test. Could it be the ignition switch?, could it be that the coils primary resistance is too low and is not producing enough voltage even though I am getting spark at the plug? Could it be the orange box? Starter relay? Else.... Any help is appreciated and if there are some other tests that can be done to try and figure out problem please describe step by step, so I am sure I am doing it right and getting correct readings. Thanks, Dave
 
LOTS to digest there

You say the engine is "basically new" but "needs to be timed." This sounds as if it has not run long enough to break in the cam??

Who put the engine together?

Who adjusted the valves? (or are they factory non adjustable?)

YOU SHOULD be able to "static time" the engine to get it to run, then set it with timing light

LEAVE the vacuum disconnected until you get other things sorted out

SO
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1 Pull the no 1 spark plug. Stick your finger in the hole, bump the engine until you START to really feel compression. You may need to "go around" a couple of times until you get the "feel" (no pun) for this WHEN you start to get compression, turn your attention to the timing marks, which should be visible "coming up" if you look around the balancer. Now be more careful, probably use a socket on the crank bolt, and bring the marks NOT TO TDC but rather something BEFORE

(Depending on the cam) If you think this is a fairly stock IE factory 340 cam, set the timing MARKS at about 12* BTC "fer now."

Next, pull the no1 wire out of the cap so you can "see" what you are doing, and carefully MARK the top of the distributor housing under the CENTER of the no1 plug tower.

Bear in mind that "advanced" means "moving the distributor HOUSING counterclockwise

NOW LOOK at the distributor rotor, which should be COMING TO your mark in the clockwise direction. The reluctor tip should be CENTERED in the pickup coil core

If not, loosen the dist, and rotate it CLOCKWISE (to "get the slop out" of the drive) then slowly bring it COUNTER clockwise, until the reluctor tip is centered in the core of the pickup.

At this point the rotor, if you imagine it going clockwise, should be just "coming to" your mark you made on the dist. housing

THIS SHOULD be close enough that the engine will fire and run

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2 NEXT let's see what you have for spark.

IF you do not have them, buy a 12V test lamp, a digital multimeter, and a couple of bags of clip leads from somewhere like Radio Shack. Less than 50 bucks gets you the whole mess

Run a clip lead from the COIL + terminal to a battery source such as the "big stud" on the start relay

Use a grounded probe, such as a 12V test lamp, or a clip lead and screwdriver. Remove the coil wire from the coil, and hold your probe at the top of the coil tower. Crank the engine, either with the key, or by jumpering the start relay. You should get a NICE fat blue spark.

Remove the clip lead from the coil to battery

While you're at it, how are the rotor and cap? New? If not, take a GOOD look. Dirt, oil film, wet? Replace 'em.

What shape are the plug wires? More than 10 years old? Replace em

Next, we want to make sure system voltages are actually GETTING TO the igntion system.

Remove the distributor connector, the ECU connector, and resistor connectors, and "work" them in/ out several times to "scrub" the terminals clean. Inspect them for corrosion, and "feel" them to see how tight they are

Then take your meter. Hook one probe to the battery (starter relay stud is OK)

Clip the other probe to coil + Prop the meter up so you can see it and crank the engine USING THE KEY and NOT by jumpering the start relay. You are hoping for a VERY low reading, and anything more than a few tenths of a volt is TOO MUCH. Over 1/2 volt is way too much, and indicates a voltage drop problem in the harness or switch, or connections

Next, with the meter still hooked to the battery, clip your other probe to the dark blue "ignition run" lead which comes out of the bulkhead and feeds the ignition resistor. You can also hook to the IGN terminal of the voltage regulator

Turn the key to "run", engine OFF. Again you are hoping for a VERY low reading. Anything over .3V (three tenths of a volt) means you have a voltage drop problem.

The circuit path you are checking is from battery -- fuse link -- bulkhead connector -- ammeter circuit --ignition switch connector -- through the switch -- back OUT the switch connector -- back out the bulkhead -- to the ballast resistor, voltage regulator

IF you get a higher reading with either of the above tests, you have a bad connection somewhere. Your top suspects are the bulkhead connector, the ignition switch connector, the switch itself, or maybe the ammeter circuit

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3 FUEL How confident are you that the fuel system is OK? That the fuel in the tank is not AFU?

IF there is ANY question as to this, you might "rig" an overhead can SAFELY and siphon down into the carb with some fuel hose until you get the fuel system sorted out.

Is the tank gummy/ rusty/ dirty?

Is the fuel filter in the tank gummed up?

Are the two rubber connector hoses old, and collapsing?

Is the steel feed tube plugged, rusted, leaking, etc?

Is the pump in good shape? How new is it? Has it been sitting for 20 years? Replace it.

You can check a pump with your vacuum / pressure gauge

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VACUUM ADVANCE. You may simply be hooking the vacuum advance to the wrong carb port. Most Mopars use what is known as TIMED or PORTED vacuum. What this means is that there IS NO vacuum at idle at the advance port. At idle, the vacuum advance does not work, normally.

SO FOR NOW until you get the engine running OK, simply LEAVE it unconnected
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DO you have a shop manual? You can download some here:

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=132309&highlight=manual,+download

You have to scroll around and try them, because some links are broken, and have been fixed further down the thread

Two manuals that are COMPLETE are the 72 and the 66. Some of the others are "body only" or are missing electrical. Stuff like checking fuel pumps is laid out in either the 66 or 72 manual, and will not matter the year of the car
 
Some more ramblings from the old and wrinkled

1 Are you SURE your timing marks are correct? There's a simple method with a piston stop if you have not checked

2 Try "tuning" the timing with your vacuum gauge. Slow the idle down, turn the dist. for max vacuum, and turn the idle down again if it goes up. Tune for max vacuum, then see where you are "on the light." Don't be surprised if you show idle timing (initial) of more than 12*. If the starter does not kick back when starting, then OK

3 The voltmeter problem you mentioned could be one or more of several things.

The meter in the car might not be accurate

Maybe the charging system is not working, or you have run the battery down some cranking it a bunch

Your car might be suffering the usual "damaged bulkhead connector" Read this MAD article for a view on what goes on:

http://www.madelectrical.com/electricaltech/amp-gauges.shtml

more from here:

http://www.madelectrical.com/electrical-tech.shtml
 
73AbodEE said:
wow 67, you really covered this one :thumbrig:
Click to expand...

I jus' hope some of it is right!! LOL

347th0j.jpg


dnyh37.gif
 
If it was running. you added vacuum advance and it died and wont start i,d pull the distributorcap and check that the weights didnt hang open and the advance plate is hung.Or just keep retarding the timing till it fires up.Either way if it runs its a distributor problem
 
check the air gap on the pickup coil in the distributor..
 
The 360 block was purchased directly from Chyrsler dealership, with new rings, pistons, timing chain, etc. and the cylinder bored out a very small amount(can't remember # off hand) 10.5 : 1 compression. Timing marks were aligned on camshaft; heads were purchased directly from Indy Racing, who many of you know is a very reputable company that deals a lot with Mopars, so I trust they had everything to specs. Everything was done properly in regards to the engine, primed with oil, TDC in regards to rotor and #1 spark plug, fuses, wiring, etc. The engine was running strong and the oil compression and vacuum compression were excellent. Like someone mentioned I think I am going to try and retard the timing more to see if that will get it to go. My thinking is it has to do something with the distributor too, since the car had been running and conked out when doing adjustments. Can anybody chime in regarding .40 ohm reading on the primary resistance of the coil. I saw a diagram on another mopar website and they said for the mopar coil the primary should read between .75 to .81 (or close to that) and the secondary 10 to 11,000 ohms. They stated if out of range coil is bad. Is this true or not? Like I said I did get a spark, but wouldn't want to change coil if it isn't bad? Thanks to all for your response and suggestions. I will reply back again to see if any of this got it to start; I hope so!
 
Update: I just got finish retarding the distributor more and she did fire up. I think what happened yesterday was that I didn't feel like it would turn anymore, so I didn't want to do something I shouldn't. I looked at my #1 and #6 plugs location on the distributor cap and noticed that there was definitely some room for retarding the distributor more.

However, the car is idling rough. I will start over with the timing (in a day or two) to see if I can get it to more of what I had yesterday. I have some more questions however; 70aarcuda you mentioned to check the air gap which I think was done, but I probably will check it again do you know off hand what it should be? Daredevil in your statement are you saying the distributor is still bad even though it will start now? If so, please explain again if you don't mind. Now I want to make sure when I time it this time around I am getting the right readings for the engine. I know ideally total advance should be in the 36 btdc range, which takes in effect the initial timing and the mechanical advance from the distributor correct? Initial timing would be with engine warm and car at idle right? When engine gets rev'd to 2500-3000 range is that showing your total timing, with vacuum line plugged ? Does anybody know off hand what mopar sets the distributors mechanical advance to from factory? (new mopar distributor by the way with tan cap) My car does have power brakes and power steering, can I get away with not using the vacuum advance canister on the distributor? If not, what is the usual vacuum degree setting on the Mopar distributor from factory? Would my total advance be more in the 50 btdc once I added the degree amount from the vacuum to the initial and mechanical or with all three added together should it be around 36 degrees? Is it possible that when I hook up a vacuum gauge and get a reading that is in the constant 18-20 steady (normal) range off of manifold pressure, that this would be a good indication that the timing of the engine is pretty near where it should be or is this a bad idea? If bad idea, can somebody walk me through the best/proper way to get the car timed right? I do have an adjustable dial timing light and vacuum gauge of course. Sorry for the long posts and all the questions, but timing is not something I have done before so I don't want to just think it is right, I want to make sure I'm doing it right and getting the correct specs. Thanks again to all, Dave
 
Watch this video and at 1.25 you can see how the plate moves. If it got stuck for any reason your timing would stay advanced hence the hard starting.[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFfnenMFQ3U"]Distributor Advances (Part 2) - Vacuum & Mechanical Explained - YouTube[/ame]
 
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