Solid wire ignition

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canyncarvr

canyncarvr

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**'We' digress, folks. This is not a question about inductance, capacitance, 'choking' spiral wounds or the like. This is not a question about the use of grounded or un-grounded Nology wires. This is not a question about generated noise and its limitation. The question is stated in the first sentence. I appreciate an interest and/or willingness of some to help but...it isn't helping. **

Anyone here use solid **edit-multi-stranded solid** ignition wires with an FBO HRR688 box? Your results?

...throw in, '...with non-resistor plugs and non-resistor plug caps'.

Clearly, I am older than I thought. I've run wire-wire plug leads forever, also non resistor plugs and non resistor caps. Now I'm reading/hearing...'You can't do that with electronic ECUs/distributors.' Evidently, in my case, the past handful of decades didn't really happen.

I do understand the liability of the matter. Say, 'You cannot!' use something in a particular fashion because it might maybe could sort'a cause a problem...so just say, 'No!'

I'm not asking that. I'm looking for the eating of the puddin' being proof enough (to me) that a configuration works...or does not.

Thanks.
 
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I don't know if that combo will work.

I put solid wire on everything, but they are spiral wound "inductive". The electronic noise from your wires can affect computers and be picked up by the module as a signal to trigger the coil. Don't route the plug wires near or parallel to the pickup wires and it might be ok.
 
My understanding of 'solid' spark plug wires is wires that just have stranded copper as the conductor...& nothing else. There is a reason they are not used & that is the erroneous assumption that the engine will make more HP less resistance in the leads. The solid leads have capacitance....& no one ever talks about what affect that has on spark delivery....
 
I use to rum Moroso Blue Max wires, stainless steel stranded wire with 8mm insulation & 11mm sleeve near the manifolds... Had a Direct Connection Electronic Ignition with a Chrome box... Never missed a beat.... Later converted to an MSD 6C.. Never an issue with that either... Now, the radio? Not happy...
 
i guess the reasons people say NO is radio interference

i.e the FCC might be upset :)

and if its going to mess with your ECU it will

if it isn't going to it won't

ECU as in something with a computer in it

i doubt the FBO box or a mopar orange box or an HEI would be considered a computer or an ECU if we use ECU to mean the brains of a modern engine control system

they have more in common with a switch than a computer

Dave
 
The solid wires I've seen personally are not stranded and of course, not to be bent back and forth too much. Lower resistance wires provide more voltage to the plug so the gap can be increased which can make more power or running and starting reliability improved. I've only run them in a spiral config (typically around a thin, fiberglass stranded core) for the emf and they are also solid wire/not stranded. I usually assemble using the accell super stock kit and blue max when they were available.
 
You think a few hundred ohms of wire resistance makes a difference? The rotor to segment gap resistance is several orders of magnitude greater than the wire resistance...not to mention the resistance of the spark plug gap itself.
In the test below, the wire with the least resistance [ #12, 0.00 ohms ] made...the lowest hp.

img370.jpg
 
The discussion is about best use of what reaches the plug wire terminal. Yes, ohms matter and plug gaps matter. I'm sure the boys at the magazine did their best, but output on back to back dyno runs can be different without touching anything and magazine clips are never the whole story. I won't post any clips from Vizard as you probably have at least one of his books in hand.
 
I too believe it is more microprocessor controlled "stuff" that is the issue. You say "not standed?" I have never seen wire core wires that are not stranded. Most I've seen are a quite stiff (tempered?) steel wire or perhaps tempered plated copper.
 
Wire resistance: Not the issue in regard to my question. What is the issue: The field effect of intermittent high voltage transmission, what happens as the field builds and collapses.

Not stranded: That is a reference to spiral wrapped core wires. I originally said 'solid', a reference to multi-strand (solid strands) wires. While not, in fact, 'solid wire', it is a description more often said as 'solid core'. I don't think anyone is going to confuse that with using Romex for connections between a distributor and sparky plug.

For those reading this (#10 or so post) and not the beginning:

Anyone here use solid **edit-multi-stranded solid** ignition wires with an FBO HRR688 box? Your results?

...throw in, '...with non-resistor plugs and non-resistor plug caps'.
 
67Dart273 said:
I too believe it is more microprocessor controlled "stuff" that is the issue. You say "not standed?" I have never seen wire core wires that are not stranded. Most I've seen are a quite stiff (tempered?) steel wire or perhaps tempered plated copper.
Click to expand...
I've not seen them either, since the '80s when I worked for an auto parts store and could look at everything hands-on. I know GM performance and Accel both sold SOLID copper core wires, not coiled or varnished, with the disclaimer of not for "HEI, rev limiters, or similar devices" due to potential interference. Copper with nickel added does not fracture as easily, but I doubt they bothered. These wires were on the $ low end.
 
I got no experience with the HRR688.
and I don't have speakers in my car.
But I do have "solid wires", a Super Coil, and Electronic Ignition.
It seems they all get along just fine under my hood.
 
As long as the wire conductor is metal [ & not carbon ], far too much time wasted about nothing, when something like a better coil, ign system, or correct spark plugs, plug gaps, will make a difference you can feel.
 
Far too much time wasted about nothing: Sorry. You are missing the point. The point? Said in the first post. Repeated in the 10th post.

I have a $300 ignition system that ran in my car for a bit over ten minutes. Then it quit. I'm looking to find out why. If others here (and where else are you going to find more Mopar folks?) have run solid wires with an FBO setup for years with no problems then the likelihood of my running one for ten minutes just to see if it worked...and it didn't...solid wires are not the issue.

Switch vs ECU? The FBO box is a bit more than a switch. It is NOT an engine control unit for sure but it's got 'lectronics in it that a mopar-style 4/5pin box does not.
 
canyncarvr said:
Far too much time wasted about nothing: Sorry. You are missing the point. The point? Said in the first post. Repeated in the 10th post.

I have a $300 ignition system that ran in my car for a bit over ten minutes. Then it quit. I'm looking to find out why. If others here (and where else are you going to find more Mopar folks?) have run solid wires with an FBO setup for years with no problems then the likelihood of my running one for ten minutes just to see if it worked...and it didn't...solid wires are not the issue.

Switch vs ECU? The FBO box is a bit more than a switch. It is NOT an engine control unit for sure but it's got 'lectronics in it that a mopar-style 4/5pin box does not.
Click to expand...
Well then I suggest you call up FBO on the fone. They are the ones who "engineered" the thing. NObody, and I mean NO BODY in the commercial world EVER tells the story up front. They NEVER put out in plain 'Murican what will or will not. Or what does or does not. Or what is or is not. They hide EVER ee THANG behind a bunch of advertising hype, and if there IS SOME warning in the destructions, they don't EVER explain WHY or just WHAT are the consequences.
 
67Dart273 said:
Well then I suggest you call up FBO on the fone. They are the ones who "engineered" the thing. NObody, and I mean NO BODY in the commercial world EVER tells the story up front. They NEVER put out in plain 'Murican what will or will not. Or what does or does not. Or what is or is not. They hide EVER ee THANG behind a bunch of advertising hype, and if there IS SOME warning in the destructions, they don't EVER explain WHY or just WHAT are the consequences.
Click to expand...

That is exactly the rub. I find nothing on the FBO site about NOT using solid plug wires with their box. I did ask FBO if I could use a solid COIL wire...they said NO. OK. I put together a spiral-core coil wire. Only then did I think...wait...I didn't ask about solid PLUG wires! I asked FBO that question. No response. Given their response to my coil wire question, there is NO reason to think the answer to the solid PLUG wire question would be, 'Sure. No problem.' Fact is...the coil wire operates at a MUCH higher frequency. Given that, it did seem a possibility that the coil wire would have to be of a suppression nature BUT the plug wires would not.

I doubt testing/verification of that issue ever happened. 'Ya never know until you ask though.

I do absolutely and with certainty of resolute mindset agree with EVER ee THANG you said.

...as unfortunate as such facts may be.


67Dart273: My first car was a '66 Dart GT with an HP-273. I was a fool for ever getting rid of that car. Unfortunately, The Fool repeatedly did similar dumb things with a '68 440 R/T Charger and two other 440 Chargers...another '68 and a '69 and a '73 440 Challenger.

I've been stoopid most of my life.
 
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the only thing an ignition box needs to worry about is
1) Flow through the box to power the coil, when it is on, for the period it is on for. ( dicated by primary resistance and ballast or just primary resistance)

2) The back emf from the primary side of the coil at switch off. this is dictated by switching speed and coil ratio. (impedance,resistance as well). so if the coil is sensible, no problem there, most fling back 250-400 V at the box. The box has some kind of "clamp" an electronic circuit to limit and leak-off any excess. This back EMF is normally used to fire simple tacho.

Think of the back emf as like the recoil of a gun. the ignition box pulls the trigger and suffers the backlash for each spark. with points, the condenser took the hit and some sparking at the points as they opened further dealt with it.

original 1974 HEI had a zener diode and capacitor combination to limit back EMF to 350 V because the module would break down when 400V going the "wrong way" was applied back from the coil primary.

modern HEI just has a capacitor and can handle 400V
presume mopar and mopar style boxes had similar.
modern stuff can put up with greater back emf so the need for the clamping circuit is reduced

the box is divorced totally from the High power side of the system. the only link is magnetic field in the core of the coil.

the box may have some chip based electronics in it
BUT its in a metal, grounded enclosure. the chances of EM radiation wiping a chip or causing an issue are low. its not exactly a Faraday cage but it nods in the right direction.

ignition box is most likely to fail on the high current switching side.
either because the coil primary resistance is too low and therefore the current is too high
OR
its ability to control dwell at low rpm is compromised resulting in much the same problem too much current for too long with the car running at 800 rpm or left with ignition on and engine stalled. mag triggered ignitions in general guard against this "switched on" doing nothing problem.

OR

the Back emf from the primary was so high 400- 600V that is caused some kind of arc over in the box..

(This and bits of corrosion floating about is what used to cause the old MSD 6ALs to crap out. Replace the components near the burn mark, clean out all of the white aluminium furyness growing from the inside of the box, fix the fuse wire if burnt, and it will start to whistle and whine again.)

OR some kinda weird crap happens as a combination of voltage regulator failure and burnt out diodes in your alternator

an alternator driven with full battery voltage into the field instead of the usual 0-5 V will output some astronomical voltages if your engine can turn it..which i'm sure it can...


this sounds like bad luck and not a problem with your leads...

Poor grounding of box to chassis or motor to chassis makes anything that uses ground as a reference, do stuff it wasn't supposed to do.

Dave
 
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Call or write the firecore spark plug wire guy for information, as to why you are not using firecore wires and want solid old school wires is beyond me
 
field

if the wire is point to point straight the voltage builds and the spark starts and there is a flow of current
you have a field in concentric circles around the wire while the current flows and its size and density is based totally on the current that flows
i.e how much energy there is per unit of charge passing that point in a unit of time

The magnetic field around a current-carrying wire - Magnets and magnetic fields - Edexcel - GCSE Physics (Single Science) Revision - Edexcel - BBC Bitesize.


if the wire is coiled

I'd guess the system acts more like a solenoid and the field of each wire loop combines to make a bigger field. so a spiral wound ignition lead will ostensibly have a North and South magnetic pole for a split second each spark.

both will throw out a magnetic field from the ignition lead. size and orientation will differ for each configuration in the casing of the lead.

hard edges are "hammered off" that field, by suppressor cap or inbuilt resistance of the lead

if you can keep the sparks inside the cable, an engine will run with household copper or flat battery jump lead as an ignition lead

might not be ideal but it shouldn't kill the ignition module

it might however cause havoc on a modern car with a true computer controlled motor by messing up signals from crank and cam triggers, which usually come from magnetic triggers connected using shielded coax with a data rate way higher than the pulses from your dizzy pickup. that coax cable can only shield so much. its just a wrap of plastic coated tin foil between the central wires and the case..

8 big pulses from a mopar dizzy per 4 stroke cycle...

36 (-1) pulses per revolution of the crank from an FORD EDIS crank sensor pickup, one of which has to be missing to give TDC, any others missing and eventually after a few more cycles, it's assessment of where TDC actually is starts to drift. limp home mode initialised

i know which one is more likely to be messed up...


Dave
 
Here's an old story I was told and I think it came from the Champion plug guy, in the mid 70's. Champion used to have "booster gap" plugs. This was an intentional gap in inside the insulator of the plug. He claimed that it worked, and that GM "negated it" by making the rotor SHORTER which essentially made a booster gap in the cap. Evidently the idea is that if the plug is in a bad situation "firing" wise, such as mixture or oil, the gap will allow power/ voltage to build up and actually help the plug fire.

You have to realize, that even back in the very early days, there were all kinds of this sort of stuff, and MAY BE they actually worked to some extent.
 
the gap works to some extent
and you are right a higher voltage can in some cases produce a spark when a lower voltage won't

in the old days there was always some fella at a car show with a coil, a plug and wire, on a bench, selling a "spark booster" it will have had a nice box a nice price and well yes it certainly does something

(he was on the stall next to the fella with a briggs 2hp motor and a magic oil additive
running the motor at 2000 rpm with no oil.... something they will do quite happily for quite a while, additive added previously or no additive, just a low stress motor that will take ages to seize with no oil)

this was a small box that you put in the king lead and it boosted your spark
his demo was always impressive, you could hear the cracking of the spark,once the box was fitted and its seemed to be quite vicious at the plug as well .

A simple version of the booster plug mentioned above

it was basically a box with 2 pointed contacts facing each other with a small gap two screw terminal ignition lead connectors at either end.

in order for a spark to happen at the plug the voltage in the coil had to build to a much higher level to breach the gap in the box and hence once that gap was jumped the voltage seen at the plug was higher and you got a noiser, and in viewing terms, bigger spark

the problem with this is you waste spark energy making it jump
The gap in the special box
The rotor tip to contact
before it gets to the plug gap

increasing the voltage this way reduces length of time the current flows through the spark at the plug which ultimately is the carrier of the energy across the spark gap

The process basically stresses the coil for a little more performance from a marginal ignition system until your coil fails

the coil is surrounded by a magnetic field that collapses at high speed when the points open or the ignition box switches off

it collapses into the core of the coil that generated it, and makes a current and voltage in the windings around that core.
If the current can't flow, the voltage increases and increases, is pushed to an extreme by the collapsing field......... until a current can flow i.e a spark jumps the gap and starts at the plug

but the coil is made from varnished wire, the higher the voltage goes above specification the more likely the voltage is to find an inconsistency in the varnish and start arching out to the coil case or another compromised winding.

and eventually your coil fails

higher voltage needed to start the spark results in a shorter period of current flow,

it can have benefits i.e less likely to burn out a carbon rotor button

but really its all just better to run the stuff as intended without messing

if the plug gap is supposed to be 30 thou fine
if its supposed to be 45 fine

don't add in an equivalent of another 45 somewhere in the chain

diminishing returns messing with the voltage needed to spark
adjust it slightly by adjusting plug gaps rather than adding in a hurdle


and that's all before we get to arcing to the wrong place in the dizzy and the detrimental effect it has on the cap contacts

Dave
 
We used to run solid core plug wires years back in race applications only. I wouldn't suggest these days because of the static interference on radios and such.
 
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