speedmaster stuff pulled from Summit racing shelves

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Seen a couple links

Company Overview

Speedmaster has become a leader in its field, built on a long term consistency of being a specialist in aftermarket automotive components. The team has shared all the finest moments in the numerous accolades for its people, its products, and its approach. Speedmaster is also one of the rare...
www.speedmaster79.com www.speedmaster79.com

 
subcom said:
I’m intrigued to see how this plays out. The name suddenly appearing on this VB just doesn’t accidentally happen. The drawing would have to be updated before sent to the CNC or someone took an existing VB plate and machined the name in to it. Something seems off about this story but the reality is probably no where near where any of us think it is. :)

From this:
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To this?
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I have been manufacturing and importing automotive aftermarket parts from China and Taiwan for over 20 years and I will try and explain how this happens and has happened to us. As far as SM is concerned this is 100% a mistake from the overseas supplier. The supplier was NEVER supposed to engrave the Broader Performance trademark on the product that they shipped to SM. It is obvious that this product was sent by someone to China to be copied, it most probably was SM but it could have been someone else. Under no circumstanced does SM ever want someone else's trademark on their product, it is a legal nightmare. Now how could this happen:
1- SM sent the product to be copied and the idiot supplier copied everything including the logo and shipped it to them. It would be exceedingly rare for something like this to happen as when you send a product to China to be copied you always get a sample from the supplier to test out and then approve before the final shipment. It is very common to get a sample that needs improvement or fixes before it is ready for production. You usually will not approve a new product without seeing an exact sample and testing it before you commit to a batch of them. Remember that factories have minimums, and it is usually in the hundreds if not thousands of pieces. This is a big investment and I am sure this is not a cheap part to make, even in China. If the logo was on the original sample it would have been removed from a later sample before the sample was authorized for production. They still could screw it up as they made one with the logo the first time, but I have never had this personally happen to us.
2- This was an off the shelf product from a Chinese manufacturer. Almost every factory in China has a catalog of "off the shelf" product and most of it is just copied product from some reputable manufacturer. It is just product that others have sent them to copy and they can manufacture at any point in time. SM just bought this as an off the shelf product that is in their catalog. For this to happen someone else sent this product to be copied, it had already been made and tested by someone else. This someone else may be copying this product using the Broader Performance name and selling it overseas as the real thing, where the US trademark laws would either not apply or be very difficult and costly to enforce, or they may be bringing this product to the USA and selling it on eBay or other online websites without anyone knowing it is a counterfeit. This product is usually manufactured with the Broader Performance name on it. SM would still have probably ordered a sample and tested it, it may have even come with the Broader Performance name on it, but they would have told the supplier to remove the name for them. The supplier just made a mistake and shipped them the product with the logo as this is how they usually manufacture the product.

It is more likely than not that SM knew that the product came in with the Broader name on it. Usually when we get receive new product we grab one from the fist batch and take a look at it, mostly to take photos of it and to make sure that it looks right. SM may not have ever opened a box and started just shipping them without knowing the Broader name was on it. Although that could happen the most likely scenario is that they received a batch of "x amount of pieces" with the Broader name on it and they just decided to take a chance and send them out there hoping no one would notice. I am sure that this has happened before to them and that is what they may have done before. When you get product like this you have 2 choices, sell it as is and hope the trademark owner does not get wind of it, or throw it in the trash and take a huge loss. The factory in China will probably not do anything for you.

We have had this happen to us a couple of times when we were starting out. We ordered off the shelf China product and it came with the original manufactures logo. We never ordered the product with the logo, but they screwed up. I will not go into it, but it does happen and it is a mess you do not want to be in. You either destroy the product and lose a ton of money or you risk selling it and hope no one notices. The fact that SM sent photos to Summit that do not show the logo leads me to believe that they knew the product had the Broader name on it and they just photoshopped it off. Usually when you get your first batch of product is when you take photos of it for your website, online auction sites, and send them to your wholesalers. There is a small chance that the photos are from an earlier sample that did not have the Broader name on it or from photos the supplier sent them without the logo, but no matter how it happened I can assure everyone that SM never intended to sell the product as a counterfeit, they just wanted to sell a copy of it which is totally legal.
 
HSDemon said:
I have been manufacturing and importing automotive aftermarket parts from China and Taiwan for over 20 years and I will try and explain how this happens and has happened to us. As far as SM is concerned this is 100% a mistake from the overseas supplier. The supplier was NEVER supposed to engrave the Broader Performance trademark on the product that they shipped to SM. It is obvious that this product was sent by someone to China to be copied, it most probably was SM but it could have been someone else. Under no circumstanced does SM ever want someone else's trademark on their product, it is a legal nightmare. Now how could this happen:
1- SM sent the product to be copied and the idiot supplier copied everything including the logo and shipped it to them. It would be exceedingly rare for something like this to happen as when you send a product to China to be copied you always get a sample from the supplier to test out and then approve before the final shipment. It is very common to get a sample that needs improvement or fixes before it is ready for production. You usually will not approve a new product without seeing an exact sample and testing it before you commit to a batch of them. Remember that factories have minimums, and it is usually in the hundreds if not thousands of pieces. This is a big investment and I am sure this is not a cheap part to make, even in China. If the logo was on the original sample it would have been removed from a later sample before the sample was authorized for production. They still could screw it up as they made one with the logo the first time, but I have never had this personally happen to us.
2- This was an off the shelf product from a Chinese manufacturer. Almost every factory in China has a catalog of "off the shelf" product and most of it is just copied product from some reputable manufacturer. It is just product that others have sent them to copy and they can manufacture at any point in time. SM just bought this as an off the shelf product that is in their catalog. For this to happen someone else sent this product to be copied, it had already been made and tested by someone else. This someone else may be copying this product using the Broader Performance name and selling it overseas as the real thing, where the US trademark laws would either not apply or be very difficult and costly to enforce, or they may be bringing this product to the USA and selling it on eBay or other online websites without anyone knowing it is a counterfeit. This product is usually manufactured with the Broader Performance name on it. SM would still have probably ordered a sample and tested it, it may have even come with the Broader Performance name on it, but they would have told the supplier to remove the name for them. The supplier just made a mistake and shipped them the product with the logo as this is how they usually manufacture the product.

It is more likely than not that SM knew that the product came in with the Broader name on it. Usually when we get receive new product we grab one from the fist batch and take a look at it, mostly to take photos of it and to make sure that it looks right. SM may not have ever opened a box and started just shipping them without knowing the Broader name was on it. Although that could happen the most likely scenario is that they received a batch of "x amount of pieces" with the Broader name on it and they just decided to take a chance and send them out there hoping no one would notice. I am sure that this has happened before to them and that is what they may have done before. When you get product like this you have 2 choices, sell it as is and hope the trademark owner does not get wind of it, or throw it in the trash and take a huge loss. The factory in China will probably not do anything for you.

We have had this happen to us a couple of times when we were starting out. We ordered off the shelf China product and it came with the original manufactures logo. We never ordered the product with the logo, but they screwed up. I will not go into it, but it does happen and it is a mess you do not want to be in. You either destroy the product and lose a ton of money or you risk selling it and hope no one notices. The fact that SM sent photos to Summit that do not show the logo leads me to believe that they knew the product had the Broader name on it and they just photoshopped it off. Usually when you get your first batch of product is when you take photos of it for your website, online auction sites, and send them to your wholesalers. There is a small chance that the photos are from an earlier sample that did not have the Broader name on it or from photos the supplier sent them without the logo, but no matter how it happened I can assure everyone that SM never intended to sell the product as a counterfeit, they just wanted to sell a copy of it which is totally legal.
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This just makes zero sense to me.

You are advocating is perfectly fine to steal intellectual property from someone, not pay them a red cent and then say its ok IF you do it right.

Thats BULLSHIT. It IS theft. Should you think I might be wrong, go out and COPY a book word for word and see how long you get away with that.

Or music. Copy someone's music and then publish it. You'll be in court so fast your shorts would have to catch up (not you specifically but you get what I'm saying).

The fact that some cases of theft of intellectual property are protected and prosecuted just means the courts don't give a crap about the automotive industry.

Theft is theft no matter what the courts do.
 
Newbomb Turk said:
This just makes zero sense to me.

You are advocating is perfectly fine to steal intellectual property from someone, not pay them a red cent and then say its ok IF you do it right.

Thats BULLSHIT. It IS theft. Should you think I might be wrong, go out and COPY a book word for word and see how long you get away with that.

Or music. Copy someone's music and then publish it. You'll be in court so fast your shorts would have to catch up (not you specifically but you get what I'm saying).

The fact that some cases of theft of intellectual property are protected and prosecuted just means the courts don't give a crap about the automotive industry.

Theft is theft no matter what the courts do
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If you do not want your product to be copied or "stolen" you need to patent it. I now have over 50 patents to my name as we do not want the product that we come out with copied. There is no theft in copying a product that is out there and no one took the time of effort to patent it, or it has been in commerce for so long that the patents expired. If you couldn't copy a product we would not have anything. Imagine that one day you wake up and invent a cell phone or anything else for that matter and no one could make another cell phone, or maybe you can up with the toilet, or a car, or a refrigerator and just because you were the first one to come up with it no one could ever copy it... We would just have a bunch of monopolies with no product development. The law is on YOUR side if you use it. We usually do not invest in new product unless we can patent it, not worth it for us now.

If you come up with a new product or idea just patent it, costs about $3,000 per product and I can tell you that no one in the US has ever copied a product that we have a patent on. If your product cannot be patented then it means that you copied that idea from an earlier inventor and maybe used it in a new way. Should the guy from Broader not be making a transbrake valve body because he did not invent it and only the original guy that came up with the idea be able to make one? Did he steal the product from the original inventor of the transbrake? Of course not, a transbrake is now old tech that anyone should be able to use.
 
slantsixdan said:
Read this book. I did, and it managed to lower my already-thought-it-couldn't-be-any-lower opinion of the lavishly subsidized sewer that is Chinese industry and its American enablers.

Lowering that particular opinion of mine is a neat trick, because I have direct experience with that festering sewer, from when I worked as a product development manager. One key bit from that experience: "Yes yes easy no problem, we mark all safety approve any certify you want, made in country mark by your specification!"

Attached are examples of targeted spam I receive. That "Daisy" sure does get around.

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Full mental jacket haha.
Farararara-rarara.
No offense lol
 
HSDemon said:
If you do not want your product to be copied or "stolen" you need to patent it. I now have over 50 patents to my name as we do not want the product that we come out with copied. There is no theft in copying a product that is out there and no one took the time of effort to patent it, or it has been in commerce for so long that the patents expired. If you couldn't copy a product we would not have anything. Imagine that one day you wake up and invent a cell phone or anything else for that matter and no one could make another cell phone, or maybe you can up with the toilet, or a car, or a refrigerator and just because you were the first one to come up with it no one could ever copy it... We would just have a bunch of monopolies with no product development. The law is on YOUR side if you use it. We usually do not invest in new product unless we can patent it, not worth it for us now.

If you come up with a new product or idea just patent it, costs about $3,000 per product and I can tell you that no one in the US has ever copied a product that we have a patent on. If your product cannot be patented then it means that you copied that idea from an earlier inventor and maybe used it in a new way. Should the guy from Broader not be making a transbrake valve body because he did not invent it and only the original guy that came up with the idea be able to make one? Did he steal the product from the original inventor of the transbrake? Of course not, a transbrake is now old tech that anyone should be able to use.
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Read what you said. A patent will protect you in the US but not from China or any other criminal element out there.

You can justify intellectual theft all you want, it won't make it right.
 
Newbomb Turk said:
This just makes zero sense to me.

You are advocating is perfectly fine to steal intellectual property from someone, not pay them a red cent and then say its ok IF you do it right.

Thats BULLSHIT. It IS theft. Should you think I might be wrong, go out and COPY a book word for word and see how long you get away with that.

Or music. Copy someone's music and then publish it. You'll be in court so fast your shorts would have to catch up (not you specifically but you get what I'm saying).

The fact that some cases of theft of intellectual property are protected and prosecuted just means the courts don't give a crap about the automotive industry.

Theft is theft no matter what the courts do.
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Books fall under copyright laws and so does music. It cannot be copied for obvious reasons as it help its creators control and receive payment for their works. If no copyright laws existed books and music would not exist in a commercial sense. You would write a book and no one would publish it as there would be no money in it, you would write a song and you could not make any money on it.

The courts do not give a crap about any industry. There are laws to protect you as an inventor you just have to use them. The courts will back you up IF you use the law.
 
Newbomb Turk said:
Read what you said. A patent will protect you in the US but not from China or any other criminal element out there.

You can justify intellectual theft all you want, it won't make it right.
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I am not justifying anything. First thing is that you are assuming that by copying a product there is some intellectual theft involved. There may be or there may not be. Was there any intellectual theft on SM part of the Broader product? Probably not, he was not the first guy to come up with a transbrake, he "stole" that intellectual property from someone else, he did not come up with the C4 Valve body that was "stolen" from someone else, he did not come up with the solenoid that was "stolen" from someone else. So what intellectual property did SM steal that Broader that did not "steal" beforehand? The only thing SM "stole" was the look of the product and obviously the issue here is that the product has the Broader trademark on it. If you do not want to have the look of your product stolen you can get a design patent for it if that is the only "new" thing your product offers. If that SM valve body did not have their name on it NO ONE WOULD CARE. Almost everything we buy now was copied from someone else, and your car and my car have a TON of copied product on them that no one gives one iota about.

You want to know how much everything is copied? I once had a friend who knew both Ed Iskendarian and Harvey Crane, he has a speed shop that started in the early fifties and ran all the way to the early 2000's. Ed Iskendarian used to ***** all the time about how Crane stole his camshaft ideas and patterns. My buddy would by the Isky cams and sell them to Harvey Crane... Before the China man was doing it to us we were doing it to us we were doing it to ourselves.
 
HSDemon said:
I am not justifying anything. First thing is that you are assuming that by copying a product there is some intellectual theft involved. There may be or there may not be. Was there any intellectual theft on SM part of the Broader product? Probably not, he was not the first guy to come up with a transbrake, he "stole" that intellectual property from someone else, he did not come up with the C4 Valve body that was "stolen" from someone else, he did not come up with the solenoid that was "stolen" from someone else. So what intellectual property did SM steal that Broader that did not "steal" beforehand? The only thing SM "stole" was the look of the product and obviously the issue here is that the product has the Broader trademark on it. If you do not want to have the look of your product stolen you can get a design patent for it if that is the only "new" thing your product offers. If that SM valve body did not have their name on it NO ONE WOULD CARE. Almost everything we buy now was copied from someone else, and your car and my car have a TON of copied product on them that no one gives one iota about.

You want to know how much everything is copied? I once had a friend who knew both Ed Iskendarian and Harvey Crane, he has a speed shop that started in the early fifties and ran all the way to the early 2000's. Ed Iskendarian used to ***** all the time about how Crane stole his camshaft ideas and patterns. My buddy would by the Isky cams and sell them to Harvey Crane... Before the China man was doing it to us we were doing it to us we were doing it to ourselves.
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True story. Can't just brame china
 
Newbomb Turk said:
Right. China isn’t the problem. It’s the thieves who think they can copy another’s work and profit from it.

Theft is theft.
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I say all crime against another person should be dealt with by torture...
 
A lot of the designs in the speed parts industry just plain aren't possible to protect with a patent. And a lot of well-established speed parts have some level of copying - for example, Aeromotive was started by people who had left Essex Industries, and a lot of their pumps and regulators look a lot like Essex designs. Or Cragar S/S wheels - they were a way to make a cheaper copy of the Torque-Thrust by bonding a steel rim to an aluminum center instead of an all-alloy design. A lot of times if you tried to sue another company for copying a part, they could reply "Yes we did, neener neener neener!" and the judge would still toss the lawsuit out of court. Sorry, but that's just how the system is.

But trademarks are a much clearer line. Trademarks say that you built the part and it's you who stands behind it. This is especially important when knowing the dimensions of a part doesn't tell you what tolerances to hold it to, what can go wrong making it, or how to support it once it's in the market. It's easy to prove a trademark violation in court. There's no weaseling out of it if you clearly have somebody else's logo on the part. As such, Speedmaster should have known to treat any part that has someone else's trademark as radioactive, whether they have a hidden subsidiary selling counterfeit parts or had a supplier botch things.
 
HSDemon said:
I am not justifying anything. First thing is that you are assuming that by copying a product there is some intellectual theft involved. There may be or there may not be. Was there any intellectual theft on SM part of the Broader product? Probably not, he was not the first guy to come up with a transbrake, he "stole" that intellectual property from someone else, he did not come up with the C4 Valve body that was "stolen" from someone else, he did not come up with the solenoid that was "stolen" from someone else. So what intellectual property did SM steal that Broader that did not "steal" beforehand? The only thing SM "stole" was the look of the product and obviously the issue here is that the product has the Broader trademark on it. If you do not want to have the look of your product stolen you can get a design patent for it if that is the only "new" thing your product offers. If that SM valve body did not have their name on it NO ONE WOULD CARE. Almost everything we buy now was copied from someone else, and your car and my car have a TON of copied product on them that no one gives one iota about.

You want to know how much everything is copied? I once had a friend who knew both Ed Iskendarian and Harvey Crane, he has a speed shop that started in the early fifties and ran all the way to the early 2000's. Ed Iskendarian used to ***** all the time about how Crane stole his camshaft ideas and patterns. My buddy would by the Isky cams and sell them to Harvey Crane... Before the China man was doing it to us we were doing it to us we were doing it to ourselves.
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Pretty low grade if he knew crane was copying them.
 
HSDemon said:
I am not justifying anything. First thing is that you are assuming that by copying a product there is some intellectual theft involved. There may be or there may not be. Was there any intellectual theft on SM part of the Broader product? Probably not, he was not the first guy to come up with a transbrake, he "stole" that intellectual property from someone else, he did not come up with the C4 Valve body that was "stolen" from someone else, he did not come up with the solenoid that was "stolen" from someone else. So what intellectual property did SM steal that Broader that did not "steal" beforehand? The only thing SM "stole" was the look of the product and obviously the issue here is that the product has the Broader trademark on it. If you do not want to have the look of your product stolen you can get a design patent for it if that is the only "new" thing your product offers. If that SM valve body did not have their name on it NO ONE WOULD CARE. Almost everything we buy now was copied from someone else, and your car and my car have a TON of copied product on them that no one gives one iota about.

You want to know how much everything is copied? I once had a friend who knew both Ed Iskendarian and Harvey Crane, he has a speed shop that started in the early fifties and ran all the way to the early 2000's. Ed Iskendarian used to ***** all the time about how Crane stole his camshaft ideas and patterns. My buddy would by the Isky cams and sell them to Harvey Crane... Before the China man was doing it to us we were doing it to us we were doing it to ourselves.
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Appreciate your obvious knowledge and personal experience on this topic.
It’s too bad some people who know 1/50 as much about the in's and outs of this choose to try and peck away at you.
 
B3422w5 said:
Appreciate your obvious knowledge and personal experience on this topic.
It’s too bad some people who know 1/50 as much about the in's and outs of this choose to try and peck away at you.
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So government sanctioned theft is ok? Can we no longer determine what theft is unless we let the thieves tell us what it means?

Wrong answer. Theft IS theft. Bet your *** if someone was stealing from you and making big money from it you’d be singing a different tune.
 
And yet even with all the objections to China stealing our product designs, I find it disappointing that so many people here are happy to photocopy wiring diagrams, service manuals and all sorts of copyrighted written documents and publish them online for free.
 
MinnesotaMopar said:
And yet even with all the objections to China stealing our product designs, I find it disappointing that so many people here are happy to photocopy wiring diagrams, service manuals and all sorts of copyrighted written documents and publish them online for free.
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People are very not sure if this is right but let’s try frickle. They wear blinders judging others when their house is “dirty”. They Dont like Chinese goods but 80% of their tools are from Harbor Freight. They badmouth Speedmaster but promote using Molnar cranks and rods. Possibly dyno engines on “MUTT” dynos with parts from all over the world. Get up in the morning and put on their non American made underwear. I fought this battle back in the 1970’s and 80’s because I worked in an American steel mill but people bought offshore cars because they got three mpg better gas mileage. The Chinese and other countries sold steel
Cheaper than you could make it because the government knew it was better for people to work than to hand them a check for sitting at home making babies and drinking beer all day. They were going to pay out anyway so why not become a World leading producer. We made all of our 600-1000 Pound Babbitt bearing in our millwright shop. Our country shut us down from doing it. We had a bronze producer three blocks from us. Our country shut them Down. They produced gears that looked like jewelry. We had 87 Millwrights when I started my apprenticeship. Our machine shop could provide us in-house anything we needed and suppliers were trucked in weekly. Somewhere around 43 machinist. 4300 plant wide employees over three non stop shifts. We had our own motor rewinders. We produced hundreds of thousands of E’s and I’s in-house for motor producers across the World. Do you know how many employees ATI now has at my plant. 430
Employees. That’s right 430 employees. Dont blame the Chinese. Blame our own country
 
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pittsburghracer said:
People are very not sure if this is right but let’s try frickle. They wear blinders judging others when their house is “dirty”. They Dont like Chinese goods but 80% of their tools are from Harbor Freight. They badmouth Speedmaster but promote using Molnar cranks and rods. Possibly dyno engines on “MUTT” dynos with parts from all over the world. Get up in the morning and put on their non American made underwear. I fought this battle back in the 1970’s and 80’s because I worked in an American steel mill but people bought offshore cars because they got three mpg better gas mileage. The Chinese and other countries sold steel
Cheaper than you could make it because the government knew it was better for people to work than to hand them a check for sitting at home making babies and drinking beer all day. They were going to pay out anyway so why not become a World leading producer. We made all of our 600-1000 Pound Babbitt bearing in our millwright shop. Our country shut us down from doing it. We had a bronze producer three blocks from us. Our country shut them Down. They produced gears that looked like jewelry. We had 87 Millwrights when I started my apprenticeship. Our machine shop could provide us in-house anything we needed and suppliers were trucked in weekly. Somewhere around 43 machinist. 4300 plant wide employees over three non stop shifts. We had our own motor rewinders. We produced hundreds of thousands of E’s and I’s in-house for motor producers across the World. Do you know how many employees ATI now has at my plant. 430
Employees. That’s right 430 employees. Dont blame the Chinese. Blame our own country
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John, it's not so much about where it's made as it is about copying someone else's design. China made is a fact of life everywhere in the world today. If speedmaster was paying for a license to reproduce or a royalty, it would be a different story.

Would you be happy if someone took a set of you ported heads, digitally mapped them, then reproduced your work on a cnc machine and started doing heads for customers a lot cheaper than you can?

Sadly, our economy for the most part moved from manufacturing to service years ago. Yes, we all contributed to it.
 
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