Starter drain the battery dead???

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318willrun

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Subject: '77 Dodge Van 318. Van runs perfect, and we have traveled through 7 states so far in it! Zero issues on the road.
Problem: If it sits for a couple weeks, the battery goes dead
Test Results: Disconnected the Negative post and put meter between cable and battery post. Shows "neg 1.9" so power is being drawn

What I've tested and tried:
  1. Pulled each fuse out one at a time and checked the meter. Meter still reads "neg 1.9" for every fuse.
  2. Replaced alternator, Voltage Regulator, Starter Relay, and Battery one at a time. Meter still reads "neg 1.9" after each replacement. (I'm not sorry I replaced the parts, spares are nice to carry along!)
  3. Added two extra grounds. One from the motor to the body, and one from the ECU to the body. Re-cleaned other ground connections two. Still Neg 1.9
  4. FINALLY, A BREAK !!! I pulled the starter relay wires off one at a time (except the main battery cable) and when I pulled the starter cable off the relay, the Meter read 000.000 :)
I've not heard of a starter pulling power while a vehicle is off. Is this a thing?? (I did put the starter on new a couple years ago just to have the newer mini-starter)
 
I'd suspect the relay before the starter, even though you pulled the wire to the starter the power had nowhere to go so it went to zero.
Pull all the wires off the relay and check the resistance through the contact.


Alan
 
Cuda Al said:
I'd suspect the relay before the starter, even though you pulled the wire to the starter the power had nowhere to go so it went to zero.
Pull all the wires off the relay and check the resistance through the contact.


Alan
Click to expand...
Good idea, thanks! I do find it strange that the new relay would act the same as the old one pulled though
 
The only way the starter is going to pull power even at a trickle is if the relay lets it.


Alan
 
Cuda Al said:
The only way the starter is going to pull power even at a trickle is if the relay lets it.


Alan
Click to expand...
I will check how you said tomorrow. I appreciate it. Electrical is not my strong suit.
 
I've seen this a couple times back when I worked for a Chevy dealer.
I've also seen alternator's abd under hood lights draw. I also had one that the brake pedal would drop just enough when sitting to close the brake light switch and cause the brake lights to illuminate dimly and kill the battery.
Had a few new cutlass ciera's back in the seat that the ecm would kill a battery overnight.
I used to do a lot of electrical work when I was a mechanic. Most people were afraid of it.
 
318willrun said:
Subject: '77 Dodge Van 318. Van runs perfect, and we have traveled through 7 states so far in it! Zero issues on the road.
Problem: If it sits for a couple weeks, the battery goes dead
Test Results: Disconnected the Negative post and put meter between cable and battery post. Shows "neg 1.9" so power is being drawn

:)
Click to expand...
1.9 what? volts? amps?

You say you pulled the "starter cable?" What are we working with? Is this the common standard little relay? Did you pull off the "big stud" or the "square" screw solenoid wire?

 
Cuda Al said:
The only way the starter is going to pull power even at a trickle is if the relay lets it.


Alan
Click to expand...
I don't believe that is accurate. The big cable is hot all the time. The relay triggers the s terminal.
An internal short can come from a bakelite or plastic insulator cracking and allowing the hot post to get poor contact with something. A sub 2 amp draw can't be completing much of a circuit but it is very possible.
 
67Dart273 said:
1.9 what? volts? amps?

You say you pulled the "starter cable?" What are we working with? Is this the common standard little relay? Did you pull off the "big stud" or the "square" screw solenoid wire?
Click to expand...
  • Volts.
  • Factory starter relay.
  • Big Stud
 
HankRearden said:
I don't believe that is accurate. The big cable is hot all the time. The relay triggers the s terminal.
An internal short can come from a bakelite or plastic insulator cracking and allowing the hot post to get poor contact with something. A sub 2 amp draw can't be completing much of a circuit but it is very possible.
Click to expand...
We still are not sure what wires were pulled from where.


Alan
 
HankRearden said:
I don't believe that is accurate. The big cable is hot all the time. The relay triggers the s terminal.
An internal short can come from a bakelite or plastic insulator cracking and allowing the hot post to get poor contact with something. A sub 2 amp draw can't be completing much of a circuit but it is very possible.
Click to expand...
Also, I put a heater hose around the starter wires to protect them recently. However, this draining of the battery has been going on for about 1.5 - 2 years.
 
318willrun said:
Also, I put a heater hose around the starter wires to protect them recently. However, this draining of the battery has been going on for about 1.5 - 2 years.
Click to expand...
Have you swapped the starter. Sorry if you already said. Im having trouble reading the thread on my phone.
 
HankRearden said:
Have you swapped the starter. Sorry if you already said. Im having trouble reading the thread on my phone.
Click to expand...
Yes, I put in a new mini-starter (bought one for a Dakota). That was also about 1.5 - 2 years ago. I cannot remember if the battery drained before or after the swap. I think we owned the van about 3 years or a little more now and I know it used to not drain the battery dead.
 
So electrical trouble shooting is just a matter of isolating the draw and then the component.
I would disconnect the both cable and trigger wire from the starter then just connect your meter from hot post on battery to big post on starter. There should be nothing so if you get a reading blame the starter.
 
HankRearden said:
So electrical trouble shooting is just a matter of isolating the draw and then the component.
I would disconnect the both cable and trigger wire from the starter then just connect your meter from hot post on battery to big post on starter. There should be nothing so if you get a reading blame the starter.
Click to expand...
Thanks, I can do that!
 
My guess would be the starter relay. I would start there if you haven't done so already
 
Clean the battery case with lots of water and baking soda. Batteries can discharge through the case. Has the battery had a load test?
 
Murray said:
Clean the battery case with lots of water and baking soda. Batteries can discharge through the case. Has the battery had a load test?
Click to expand...
No load test, but it's the second battery and both did the same.
 
318willrun said:
  • Volts.
  • Factory starter relay.
  • Big Stud
Click to expand...
Volts is not what you want. You want CURRENT however----I NEVER start with a meter, because some meters are not protected very well for current or if they are, the fuses in the meter (Fluke) are VERY expensive. So, Start with an INCANDESCENT test lamp, not LED, and put that in series with the battery ground cable. You can get an idea from the brightness of the current. If it seems very bright, then try a stop lamp bulb and judge the brightness of that. If you "feel" that the current is within your meter specs, set it up for the high amps setup and see if you can get a reading, and if necessary, drop down to milliamps.

As said earlier above, a starter CAN CERTAINLY generate a drain, AKA internal moisture and corrosion bridging across the insulation of the solenoid.
 
I assume you pulled all the fuses, but you likely know there are other items in these old girls that are not fused. A good study of the wiring diagram might give you a hint. Don't forget added items, the radio (modern radios run the output transistor(s) "hot" all the time, and they are supposed to be "cut off" when the radio is shut off. Double for remote amplifiers. Glove box lamp, trunk and underhood lamp. Someone mentioned the alternator, just disconnect the output stud. Pull the horn relay. Don't discount that the battery itself might be iffy. Charge it up and store the veh. diligently with the neg cable disconnected. Obviously if it still goes down, its the battery.

Sosmeone already mentioned, but make absolutely sure that the brake light switch is not on the ragged edge, and sometimes sticking 'on'

Did someone connect something like a tach and wire it "hot?"
 
67Dart273 said:
I assume you pulled all the fuses, but you likely know there are other items in these old girls that are not fused. A good study of the wiring diagram might give you a hint. Don't forget added items, the radio (modern radios run the output transistor(s) "hot" all the time, and they are supposed to be "cut off" when the radio is shut off. Double for remote amplifiers. Glove box lamp, trunk and underhood lamp. Someone mentioned the alternator, just disconnect the output stud. Pull the horn relay. Don't discount that the battery itself might be iffy. Charge it up and store the veh. diligently with the neg cable disconnected. Obviously if it still goes down, its the battery.

Sosmeone already mentioned, but make absolutely sure that the brake light switch is not on the ragged edge, and sometimes sticking 'on'

Did someone connect something like a tach and wire it "hot?"
Click to expand...
  • I'm certain nothing is on such as a radio, tach light, or brake lights. Nothing.
  • As mentioned in the first post, I pulled all the fuses. I even disconnected the connectors under the hood that would pull apart. Everything. The only thing that let the meter read zeros was when the main starter cable was disconnected.
 
If I am reading correctly:
the current draw STOPPED when the wire connecting the starter rel to the starter was removed.
This suggests there is some internal leakage of the starter sol to grd because the wire removed powers that sol.
 
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