Steering Box Ratio

[MRGTX]

I'll just add another opinion about the steering ratio. The 16:1 manual steering has some major drawbacks that folks seem to underestimate.

IF you want the quick ratio because you want to do "sporty" driving, you presumably also have a performance oriented suspension (which it sounds like you do) and likely performance oriented alignment specs, likely some aggressive front tires, etc. If this is the case, this steering ratio sucks IMO. I don't care if you have arms like Sgt. Slaughter...yes, steering effort is the problem but it's not just a matter of arm strength. The problem for me is that there is a certain amount of slop built into the steering system in these cars and because of this, there are a few degrees (often quite a few degrees with worn steering parts) of "dead" steering wheel travel at any time. If you want to make quick or precise steering inputs, this drastic change in steering effort from basically nothing to super heavy is unpleasant even after you get used to it. It feels un-sporty and unrewarding, imprecise, and sloppy. Any manual steering box will have this to some extent but the extra effort required by the 16:1 presumably exacerbates the problem.

If you have stock parts, stock-ish tires, stock-ish alignment specs, and mostly just cruise around town, the steering system in these cars is fine. The 16:1 ratio is even fine. Then again, so is 20:1 or 24:1 for this purpose.

Honestly, I would just stick with whatever you have, freshen up everything else and drive it.

My experience will be on the extreme end of this. I have modern 200 treadwear tires, 5 degrees of caster, a smaller than stock diameter steering wheel...but the problems will certainly exist in more favorable situations as well even if it is to a lesser extent.

 

[66fs]

I'll just add another opinion about the steering ratio. The 16:1 manual steering has some major drawbacks that folks seem to underestimate.

IF you want the quick ratio because you want to do "sporty" driving, you presumably also have a performance oriented suspension (which it sounds like you do) and likely performance oriented alignment specs, likely some aggressive front tires, etc. If this is the case, this steering ratio sucks IMO. I don't care if you have arms like Sgt. Slaughter...yes, steering effort is the problem but it's not just a matter of arm strength. The problem for me is that there is a certain amount of slop built into the steering system in these cars and because of this, there are a few degrees (often quite a few degrees with worn steering parts) of "dead" steering wheel travel at any time. If you want to make quick or precise steering inputs, this drastic change in steering effort from basically nothing to super heavy is unpleasant even after you get used to it. It feels un-sporty and unrewarding, imprecise, and sloppy. Any manual steering box will have this to some extent but the extra effort required by the 16:1 presumably exacerbates the problem.

If you have stock parts, stock-ish tires, stock-ish alignment specs, and mostly just cruise around town, the steering system in these cars is fine. The 16:1 ratio is even fine. Then again, so is 20:1 or 24:1 for this purpose.

Honestly, I would just stick with whatever you have, freshen up everything else and drive it.

My experience will be on the extreme end of this. I have modern 200 treadwear tires, 5 degrees of caster, a smaller than stock diameter steering wheel...but the problems will certainly exist in more favorable situations as well even if it is to a lesser extent.

Once rolling the 16:1 box is fine. No skip, no slop. I had Firm Feel build me one. My only problem is my drive way. Tight turn out of the garage then a winding uphill till it levels and straightens out. The only hard part is the tight turn out of the garage. 1966 Formula S, 4 speed, stock steering wheel, nothing more than MOOG HD rubber bushings, ball joints, and a roller Idler arm. My alignment guy road races and absolutely loves my 66. I'm 67 years old, 175 lb, and normal arms.

 

[autoxcuda]

Once rolling the 16:1 box is fine. No skip, no slop. I had Firm Feel build me one. My only problem is my drive way. Tight turn out of the garage then a winding uphill till it levels and straightens out. The only hard part is the tight turn out of the garage. 1966 Formula S, 4 speed, stock steering wheel, nothing more than MOOG HD rubber bushings, ball joints, and a roller Idler arm. My alignment guy road races and absolutely loves my 66. I'm 67 years old, 175 lb, and normal arms.

What's your front tire size?

Stock large diameter steering wheel helps. Front tire pressure helps a bunch too.

 

[MRGTX]

Once rolling the 16:1 box is fine. No skip, no slop. I had Firm Feel build me one. My only problem is my drive way. Tight turn out of the garage then a winding uphill till it levels and straightens out. The only hard part is the tight turn out of the garage. 1966 Formula S, 4 speed, stock steering wheel, nothing more than MOOG HD rubber bushings, ball joints, and a roller Idler arm. My alignment guy road races and absolutely loves my 66. I'm 67 years old, 175 lb, and normal arms.

Maybe the Firmfeel box solves the slop problem. If so, my complaints only apply to a stock unit.
What alignment specs are you running?

 

[72Duster440]

Maybe the Firmfeel box solves the slop problem. If so, my complaints only apply to a stock unit.
What alignment specs are you running?

I run a PST 20:1 and that same slop is there. I can yaw the wheel back and forth a bit with no response out of the steering. I was hoping the new box would eliminate that issue, but it didn't, same as it was with the stock 24:1 box.

 

[66fs]

What's your front tire size?

Stock large diameter steering wheel helps. Front tire pressure helps a bunch too.

195/55R15, V rated, 200 tread wear, 35 psi. I may try a 20:1 box myself.

 

[66fs]

Maybe the Firmfeel box solves the slop problem. If so, my complaints only apply to a stock unit.
What alignment specs are you running?

Not sure of the specs, not as good as yours. I run standard rubber upper and lower control arm bushings, no offset upper control arm bushings. May be 2 or 2.5 camber. Jeff will get as much as he can and I trust his judgement. He has done all of my cars for 40 years. I have seen open wheel race cars on his rack. I run C body tie rod ends, but I think it is the roller Idler arm that does not deflect. I guess it all adds up.

 

[MRGTX]

195/55R15, V rated, 200 tread wear, 35 psi. I may try a 20:1 box myself.

It really seems like Barracudas can get away with shorter tires and visually, I can't work out why that is but I am envious. It would open up some tire options for sure. As it stands, if I ran a 23" tall tire on my Dart, the gap between the OD of the tire and the wheel arch would be horrendous!

 

[MRGTX]

I run a PST 20:1 and that same slop is there. I can yaw the wheel back and forth a bit with no response out of the steering. I was hoping the new box would eliminate that issue, but it didn't, same as it was with the stock 24:1 box.

This is disappointing to hear but thank you for the data point.

 

[PST]

I run a PST 20:1 and that same slop is there. I can yaw the wheel back and forth a bit with no response out of the steering. I was hoping the new box would eliminate that issue, but it didn't, same as it was with the stock 24:1 box.

There should be no slop in the new steering boxes that we supply and if you have that would be the first I have seen. Is all the rest of your steering linkage new? I only as is that you mentioned you had it prior to replacement of your order boxes. Was the play the same amount? Our boxes are adjusted upon assembly but that is not say that the one you received maybe slightly loose. Have you made an attempt to adjust it? Did it make a difference? If not adjustments are made the same way as outlined in your vehicles factory service manual.

Please let us know we are here to help.

James From
PST

 

[autoxcuda]

195/55R15, V rated, 200 tread wear, 35 psi. I may try a 20:1 box myself.

I think mrgtx has 225 or 235 wide front tires.

Early A-bodies weigh less than later ones. Earliest is lightest, latest is heaviest (in general)

35 psi helps too. The sticker on my 2015 Challenger says 32 psi.

And mrgtx is running +5 deg caster vs 2-2.5 caster.

All those things add up and will give quite a different effect.

 

[72Duster440]

There should be no slop in the new steering boxes that we supply and if you have that would be the first I have seen. Is all the rest of your steering linkage new? I only as is that you mentioned you had it prior to replacement of your order boxes. Was the play the same amount? Our boxes are adjusted upon assembly but that is not say that the one you received maybe slightly loose. Have you made an attempt to adjust it? Did it make a difference? If not adjustments are made the same way as outlined in your vehicles factory service manual.

Please let us know we are here to help.

James From
PST

I replaced everything steering related about 500 miles and there was still a dead spot at the center so I purchased a new box, thinking that's the only thing left it could be. (Bad assumption, but I wanted the tighter ratio box anyway). I have less of a dead spot in the center now, but it's still there. I have not tried to adjust it yet, but I will give it a try, it's easy enough to do. I also need to get someone underneath to see if any of the other new components have some slop in them while there is weight on the suspension, when it's up in the air everything appears tight. The steering wheel moves with absolutely zero efffort from about the 12 o'clock position to the 1 o'clock position, and then it requires the normal effort to keep turning. I was thinking if it was tie rod or pitman arm related, the tie rod would have to be noticeably loose for that much free play in the wheel, but they still felt tight when I swapped boxes.

 

[glenn340]

Replaced my original sloppy steering box in my 1969 GTS with a PST 20:1. Huge difference. Nice and tight, feels like it should. All other front end components are new and tight.
I would recommend PST. It is a new box, not a rebuilt core.

 

[autoxcuda]

I replaced everything steering related about 500 miles and there was still a dead spot at the center so I purchased a new box, thinking that's the only thing left it could be. (Bad assumption, but I wanted the tighter ratio box anyway). I have less of a dead spot in the center now, but it's still there. I have not tried to adjust it yet, but I will give it a try, it's easy enough to do. I also need to get someone underneath to see if any of the other new components have some slop in them while there is weight on the suspension, when it's up in the air everything appears tight. The steering wheel moves with absolutely zero efffort from about the 12 o'clock position to the 1 o'clock position, and then it requires the normal effort to keep turning. I was thinking if it was tie rod or pitman arm related, the tie rod would have to be noticeably loose for that much free play in the wheel, but they still felt tight when I swapped boxes.

It's never going to feel precise off-center like a modern rack and pinon many get accustomed to in their daily drivers.

The pitman arm concept just amplifies any lash on a recirculating ball steering gear system. Also, there are more linkage joints with additional lash on a recirculating ball steering gear system than a rack system.

 

[72bluNblu]

I LOVE my 16:1 ratio manual steering box. Mine is from Flaming River, but regardless a new manual box shouldn’t have any slop. A worm/sector style box will have a small on center spot because of the nature of the construction of the box, but that shouldn’t mean it has a big dead spot. Yes, it feels a little different than a rack but shouldn’t have any performance impact whatsoever.

My car is used as my daily driver even with the 16:1 manual steering and 200 treadwear Falken Azeni’s in 275/35/18 up front with +6.5° of caster and a Tuff wheel (smallest diameter of all the stock steering wheels). It doesn’t take Herculean strength to drive the car, in fact at anything more than 15 mph or so it’s not hard at all and I can drive one handed at normal highway speeds. Parking isn’t bad if you can make all your steering inputs while still rolling, it can get a little heavy at slow speeds but IMO it’s manageable. Turning the wheel while not rolling is very difficult, but you shouldn’t be dry steering anyway as it wears out your tires and puts more strain on your steering components. If I had to parallel park everyday I might alter my opinion a bit, but I don’t and normal parking lots are fine.

 

[72Duster440]

There should be no slop in the new steering boxes that we supply and if you have that would be the first I have seen. Is all the rest of your steering linkage new? I only as is that you mentioned you had it prior to replacement of your order boxes. Was the play the same amount? Our boxes are adjusted upon assembly but that is not say that the one you received maybe slightly loose. Have you made an attempt to adjust it? Did it make a difference? If not adjustments are made the same way as outlined in your vehicles factory service manual.

Please let us know we are here to help.

James From
PST

I just wanted to give a shout out to James at PST. I sent him a video last night that showed a little bit of movement in the sector shaft of the 20:1 box I ordered. Without hesitation he offered to ship me out a replacement. I consider this to be excellent customer service, especially in todays age where most vendors don't even respond. Once again, thanks for the help James, and I will continue recommending your company to anyone looking for products that you sell.

 

[Moparmonster]

What's your front tire size?

Stock large diameter steering wheel helps. Front tire pressure helps a bunch too.

Okay, apologies for the delay in my reply. I work a lot and don't have a ton of downtime.

I finally spoke to Frank at Firm Feel yesterday and he confirmed everything you said. I was having some doubts but you were correct on every count so thank you for your help.

I know that I can always sell what I can't use so I won't be losing too much of my investment. That all said, I see two choices:

--In order to use the Firm Feel fast ratio pitman and idler arms, I have to use the '73+ style center link, but I'd have to purchase it ($350 plus shipping). If I go that route, the 16:1 steering box ratio is out because the car will be terrible to drive at low speeds.

--The rebuild kit I have is the PST polygraphite kit and if I go with the included pitman and idler arms, I can use the stock '65 V8 centerlink that I already have. If I go this route, I can go with the 16:1 steering ratio.

In either case, though, I'm probably going with the 20:1 steering box ratio just for driveability.

I've already gotten the pitman powder coated so I can't return it.

I honestly don't know the tire size off the top of my head, as they're buried in a corner of the garage. I'll post that when I'm able to get to them again.

60-66 A-bodies have unique K-member, centerlink.

 

[66fs]

I'd recommend this route.

--The rebuild kit I have is the PST polygraphite kit and if I go with the included pitman and idler arms, I can use the stock '65 V8 centerlink that I already have. If I go this route, I can go with the 16:1 steering ratio.

In either case, though, I'm probably going with the 20:1 steering box ratio just for driveability.

 

[Moparmonster]

I'd recommend this route.

That's where I think I'm gonna go. I just have to get those pitman and idler arms powder coated and the steering box rebuild kit ordered and we're ready to **** some **** up.

 

[Moparmonster]

Thanks, also, for all the help, guys. I appreciate it.

 

[65TerrorCuda]

Changing to a smaller steering wheels quickens the feel a bunch and is easy to reverse if you change your mind. Or quit going to the gym. Visually maybe not what you're looking for

 

[Moparmonster]

Changing to a smaller steering wheels quickens the feel a bunch and is easy to reverse if you change your mind. Or quit going to the gym. Visually maybe not what you're looking for

This is what I'll be using for steering duties.

 

[65TerrorCuda]

This is what I'll be using for steering duties.

View attachment 1715986970

Looks good. The padded steering wheels definitely have an advantage over the old skinny solid rim ones.

Used to use a grant challenger 13.5" which is great until you quit going to the gym. Challenge your arms

 

[AJ/FormS]

My car runs the standard period Mopar PowerSteering box, but with added reaction springs to reduce the boost/ increase the effort/kill some on-center deadness. I just added reaction springs until I deemed the effort appropriate. Yes, I took the box out twice in one day, and again later in the week.
IIRC these are 15.7:1
It runs the standard arms.
It runs a very small steering wheel with a big fat integral foam padded rim.
I couldn't be happier.

This Steering wheel is about 3 inches smaller than the factory wheel was, for the 68 Barracuda. Which translates to about 3 x 3.1416=9.4 inches less circumference that my average arms have to swing, per revolution, which from lock to luck, thus translates to 3.5 x 9.4=33inches total, of not-required motion .
Now 3/15 is 20% so this is the same as going from; 24 to 19.2, or from 20 to 16, or from 15.7 to 12.56/ lol, without any of the fast-ratio installation hassles.
The effort was well worth the result.

But I'm a lil stumped; you said;

Once done, the car will live in the garage, straight in, straight out. I hate parallel parking but because of that, I don't mind walking a good distance from my car to the store. I don't mind cranking the wheel but I don't think that I'll really have to.

for which I have to wonder;
Why does ratio even matter?
If you are that averse to cranking the wheel, you really should be thinking about Power Assist. Like I said

I couldn't be happier.

Ok wait,
the fast ratio arms do not change the amount of turning angle!
That is controlled by the travel-limiting stops that are cast into your lower BJs. The FR arms only amplify the motion of the steering box , so that it takes less TIME to reach the travel-limiters. So then, of course, if your box has NO deadspot on center, you will be having issues in the Straight-ahead driving. Every motion you input to the steering wheel will be directly communicated to the direction of travel. STAY home on windy days, and stay off any road with even the most shallow of ruts on/in it.
It's hard enough for me with my dead-spot designed in, to deal with those situations.I cannot imagine it would be any better with FR arms or a box with a reduced on-center dead-spot.
Long live power-assist, lol.

 

[Kern Dog]

The problem for me is that there is a certain amount of slop built into the steering system in these cars and because of this, there are a few degrees (often quite a few degrees with worn steering parts) of "dead" steering wheel travel at any time. If you want to make quick or precise steering inputs, this drastic change in steering effort from basically nothing to super heavy is unpleasant even after you get used to it. It feels un-sporty and unrewarding, imprecise, and sloppy. Any manual steering box will have this to some extent but the extra effort required by the 16:1 presumably exacerbates the problem.

My experience will be on the extreme end of this. I have modern 200 treadwear tires, 5 degrees of caster, a smaller than stock diameter steering wheel...but the problems will certainly exist in more favorable situations as well even if it is to a lesser extent.

This is exactly the situation that inspired me to switch to a Borgeson steering box in my Charger.
I had a Firm Feel stage 3 power steering unit that had the usual on center slop that every power steering box seems to have. To make it worse, I had Fast Ratio steering arms.
Just like you wrote...the transition from high effort to slop then to high effort when sawing the wheel back and forth was terrible.
Look at the photos....this shows the amount of free play at the center of travel where the steering wheel moved before the tires responded. I had a good suspension setup, good coupler, good alignment and 275-40-18" tires.

The Borgeson eliminated the slop and made the car better to drive.