Stroker 340>416 Build Advice

[Nat]

Speed Master heads?
Might as well bolt on a set of iron 308’s!

unless you are PBR and have mad skillz

 

[rumblefish360]

I think the booster I have is vacuum. Im checking details now.
Carb tuning skills are beginner but I have mechanic friends who can help me with that stuff (Im a newbie with a lot of this stuff still)
As for the cam type I know nothing about that so Id love some education if you're willing?
Yeah cruising around/going up to Phoenix is what I really want.
Rear tire size is approx 26" tall

3.55’s on 26 inch tires destine to cruise on the Hwy.
OK then! We are getting somewhere!

Basic cam Ed;

The duration will dictate the rpm in which the cam is designed to operate the engine. There’s advertised duration and duration @.050, which is the compare standard in which to compare various cams against each other. The .050 is just that much in tappet or lifter rise off the base circle of the cam.

The higher the duration number(s) the higher the rpm in the engine works in. The cam companies give a general area in which the cam performs in. This is not an accurate description for all engines. It’s general. If you were building a 340 or a 360, I’d say they closely apply and that is dependent on a few other parameters that won’t be discussed here and now. Build a smaller engine, 273/318, the rpm range is higher. Build a bigger engine, 408/434 or larger, the rpm range is lower. How much higher or lower also depends on the rest of the engine and it’s equipment.

Hyd cams offer reasonable performance with zero maintenance.
Solid cams offer more performance and higher rpm abilities with minimal maintenance. Solid tappet cams can be nearly as radical as race roller cams.

IMO, a good solid cam with enough lift to let the engine breath well at high rpm’s but not so radical on the engine parts is where you’ll find the best performance and bang for the buck.

At what rpm would you like to cruise down the Hwy at?
This is the first important question.

 

[rumblefish360]

unless you are PBR and have mad skillz

I’m not fully getting your reply. But I’ll say…..

If you know how to port a head, these may… MAY be a good head to use. If you don’t know how to port and you do not want to pay big bucks for a head porter, then the best cylinder head I can think of are the Trick Flow heads capable of helping you to screw together an engine to clear into the upper 400’s or mid 500hp area with the correct parts.

I still think the Edelbrock is a good head for mid 400 hp OOTB as cast. The thread starter could use OOTB as cast Edelbrock heads to obtain an easy 450hp. It would take a mild cam to do so and it would not be to big as to cruise the Blvd. or Hwy. Heck, copy the Blue Print engine cam.
241/247 @050. BAMM-435 hp

 

[Psychobob22]

Right now the car is at like 3200rpm or a bit higher at 60/65mph which is not preferable. Id like to get under 3k while at 65 or so. Thats part of why I am planning on taller gears to help bring it down.

So it sounds like the two major heads to choose from are trick flow or eddy? Do the trick flows need work out of the box generally?

 

[autoxcuda]

Right now the car is at like 3200rpm or a bit higher at 60/65mph which is not preferable. Id like to get under 3k while at 65 or so. Thats part of why I am planning on taller gears to help bring it down.

So it sounds like the two major heads to choose from are trick flow or eddy? Do the trick flows need work out of the box generally?

Buyers of them seem to say no work needed.

you have headers now or going to get them?

 

[rumblefish360]

Generally no. But if you don’t know what to look for and/or lack the tools to do so, the cost isn’t much for a machinist to check out. He could also, for a few bucks more, tweak the valve job and/or do some bowl work to further enhance low lift flow which is most important.

The ones my wife bought were really very nice in there OOTB condition and perform very well.

The Edelbrock also falls under the above. My last set was nice. There good for around, give or take, 475/500 hp. But it will be a little harder to achieve against the TF head because the flow less. Calculate the added expense of porting the Edelbrock head to match the TF head and I think you’ll find the TF head is advantageous to purchase over the Edelbrock head. Valve gear is also a consideration expense.

Whwn all is said and done, I like the TF option for better performance and a higher performance ceiling.

 

[Psychobob22]

Buyers of them seem to say no work needed.

you have headers now or going to get them?

I have Hooker long tubes on the car right now with the engine thats in it (matching numbers, not the one Im stroking). I was looking at the TTI long tubes to go up and over the steering so I stop scraping the ground occasionally

 

[autoxcuda]

I have Hooker long tubes on the car right now with the engine thats in it (matching numbers, not the one Im stroking). I was looking at the TTI long tubes to go up and over the steering so I stop scraping the ground occasionally

That’s what I run. Very nice stout headers, thick flanges. Super rugged for street.

 

[rumblefish360]

I think that for myself a Hyd. cam @ 247 is rather a large Hyd. for the street and I’m not really happy with something that large for MYSELF. I’ve run the Purple 292 before. While the performance was just fine, it did suck a bit with my power brakes. A lot also has to do with how the cam is ground.

 

[Psychobob22]

Ok so sounds like hydraulic is the way to go. Ill try to call Bullet and get some info from them. I imagine that their prices are more since its more custom? Beyond that whats the benefits of flat tappet vs rollers?

 

[Scody21]

Ok so sounds like hydraulic is the way to go. Ill try to call Bullet and get some info from them. I imagine that their prices are more since its more custom? Beyond that whats the benefits of flat tappet vs rollers?

Roller tappets are pushing 800-1000 bucks. And may need block machining for clear. Good flats are 200-500 for a set. And a custom ground cam from Howard’s was like 10 bucks more than a shaft cam.

 

[cpearce]

Ok so sounds like hydraulic is the way to go. Ill try to call Bullet and get some info from them. I imagine that their prices are more since its more custom? Beyond that whats the benefits of flat tappet vs rollers?

If you are all mechanically inclined, I'd go solid flat tappet over hydraulic. I just had Bullet grind me a custom solid flat tappet cam a month back, I belive it was $275.

 

[rumblefish360]

Ok so sounds like hydraulic is the way to go. Ill try to call Bullet and get some info from them. I imagine that their prices are more since its more custom? Beyond that whats the benefits of flat tappet vs rollers?

Hyd. Flat tappet = cheap and easy. Once up and running, you forget about it. Check 50 years after they bury you.
Hyd cams tend to be easy on parts, engine start up is easy, cruising is not an issue ever, IMO, is a win win for a No nonsense everyday driver and Blvd cruiser that will last for decades to come.

Solid Flat Tappet = cheap w/a minor PIA in lash adjustment. Check lash once in a while to see if it is growing in size. Readjust if needed. Check cam lobe for wear if the lash grows. A Minor inconvenience, seldom done. Once your up and running, a daily driver will be checked when ever there is that extra valve train noise.
If racing, every now and again.

A solid lifter cam offers more RPM over a Hyd.
Depending on how the solid cam is cut, they will very closely approach a roller cams performance.

Roller cam = expensive on ether Hyd or solid cam. There benefits are if you already have a (Hyd) roller cam engine, you can just swap one in and reuse your OE roller lifters.

If not, they get pricey for the set up which may very well not be such a great deal. there rate of lift (lifting the valve up) is normally greater than most hyd or solid cams. BUT a race style solid flat tappet cam out do street roller cam lobes on there rate of lift and if so ground, again, can approach a solid roller cam very closely.

The solid roller in racing is the ultimate for power seeking. You’ll find these ultimate power seeking ground solid roller insane grinds in the top fuel or top alcohol section of the cams catalog.

A standard street strip solid roller can be very effective IF your going to take advantage of it. If not, don’t bother. You’ll just be throwing money out the window. Build an beast with it or don’t bother with it. You can do quite well with a simple solid flat tappet. (SFT)

For your description above on what you want to do, a Hyd flat tappet (HFT) will bring the bacon home easy. Be trouble free and last a super long time.

 

[rumblefish360]

For myself, I have several styles of camshafts for specific purposes.

I have this old Crane Hyd. cam for a general bracket engine. It’ll make for a nice hot rod in the street.

This solid Lunati roller for my slightly stroked (372) 6 pack engine.

This SFT Ultradyne cam for my drag engine.

There wide and varied. There all about 20*’s of duration @.050 apart.
Big difference in power band and performance. That first cam card is 236@050 and would work well in your stroker. I’m does have a low lift though. I’d look for more lift on your engine.

The Lunati will have ported heads, 1.6 rockers with a port intake and 1-3/4 headers as well as forged internals. The engine will get some tricks applied to it that won’t get listed. All in all, I’m looking to make a easy mid 11 street car.

The Ultradyne SFT cam will be on a big inch stroker with very well ported heads, TR intake, big headers, high compression & stall converter and big gears. Looking to run 9’s easy. Not 9.99 ET’s. Quicker.

OP, Questions, comments?

 

[autoxcuda]

I’m thinking around 240 to 245 @050, .515 lift, 110 LSA and marking a call to Bullet Cams.

Will he need adjustable lifters with the hydraulic?

If he can get away with stock rockers, then a 245-ish @050, and .515 lift advertised becomes a little smaller with 1.46 stock rocker ratio.

Can you run stock rockers with Trick Flow heads? Just wondering if one thing will require another major purchase?

 

[rumblefish360]

*I Think* you can run OE rockers. There is an option to purchase Harland Sharp rocker specifically designed for that very head. Edelbrock or Trick Rlow.

Like I said earlier, copy the Blue Print Engines camshaft. 241/257@050. Is add 1.6 rockers to get into the better area of head flow myself.

Mopar vs. Ford 408 Stroker Shootout in Engine Masters Ep. 11

 

[autoxcuda]

*I Think* you can run OE rockers. There is an option to purchase Harland Sharp rocker specifically designed for that very head. Edelbrock or Trick Rlow.

Like I said earlier, copy the Blue Print Engines camshaft. 241/257@050. Is add 1.6 rockers to get into the better area of head flow myself.

Mopar vs. Ford 408 Stroker Shootout in Engine Masters Ep. 11

I think thats a great target. But call Bullet Cams and have the tailor to his specific situation and requirements.

What can he do to help prevent premature cam failure? They have EDM for solids and I’ve seen great results. But anything extra for Hydraulic Flat Tappet Lifters?

 

[rumblefish360]

@autoxcuda

Off hand, IDK if there are EDM tappets for Hyd. cams.
Other than a good proper lube coating of the cam and turning the engine over two revolutions to prime the oiling system, I don’t know what else to do. That’s all I ever did and have never had a problem.

Setting up the distributor to fire right away is a small thinking moment to set up and do.

 

[rumblefish360]

Part two to the OP.

Notice in the video, the Ford vs MoPar 408 shoot out, that the Ford had a bigger cylinder head which allows more air and fuel in for more power.

Below is what happens when you port the cylinder head.
This is why I said that the Edelbrock is good but the TF’s are better (except price, but is it worth it?)

The TF heads are 195cc while the Ford head in the previous video was at 190 and the MP had the 170cc Edelbrock head. I also said that what ever head you get a machinist can check it out and then port it some for added flow. That’s your call but adding flow is power which is seen in the above video above and even more so in the below video.
(Do take note of the intake change.)

Skip to the 12:40 mark or so to see the final dyno run and results.
Engine Masters Ep. 21 Makes Free Horsepower with DIY Porting

 

[rumblefish360]

Now that you have watched both videos, seen what a better head will do and what a well ported head can do for you and and and - AND!!!
With that Hyd flat tappet cam!

241/247@050…

Yea, I’ve said here a lot for a long time, get the best cylinder head your wallet allows. Freiburger also states this.


For a very well ported Edelbrock head and a medium sized Hyd cam in that 408, not to damn shabby at all!

 

[MOPAROFFICIAL]

Hey all!
Building a stroker 340/416 for my 70 Duster 4spd. Already bought the rotating assembly, getting the SCAT 416 all forged with the dished -20.5 cc pistons. Trying to figure out heads/cam and looking for what others have done or had experience with. The car will be a street car running pump gas so I was looking at about 10:1 CR and sticking to AL heads which I believe would be about a 65 cc chamber. Any suggestions on what heads and cam to use?

Look for a head with intake ports in the 180's cc and mid 260's to 270's cfm by .500
Cam in the 250 @.050 108 lsa with a few degrees ground into the int for a little kick. 280's -290 dur.
Dual or single, dual will be better off idle the single up top..though the dual plane can hang into 6000 rpm too. Oh and check out B3Racing for a geometry kit before ordering pushrods. More power 'imo less spring required to control the valve too'.

 

[autoxcuda]

I think a 108 LSA is more likely to lower his vacuum for his power brake booster. And make it a little tougher to tune (he said he was a beginner to carb tuning)

Would a bolt-on Trick Flow head be less expensive than having someone pocket port a Edelbrock head? Labor $ add up real fast.

 

[Nat]

He said “Scat” material. (Chink….)
You said “Molnar”, made in the USA correct.
Now it’s all down to who did the work. Or didn’t…

is Molnar made in the USA or just final machining done state side ? Agree on the made in China stuff for 100 or 200 more I'll buy made in North America if possible

 

[Nat]

I think a 108 LSA is more likely to lower his vacuum for his power brake booster. And make it a little tougher to tune (he said he was a beginner to carb tuning)
r
Would a bolt-on Trick Flow head be less expensive than having someone pocket port a Edelbrock head? Labor $ add up real fast.

my cam with 247@50 did not supply enough vacuum for power brakes needed a vacuum booster and yes labour and taxes add up fast taxes add 16 to 18% in commie Kanada sorry screwed up the post previously

 

[rumblefish360]

I think a 108 LSA is more likely to lower his vacuum for his power brake booster. And make it a little tougher to tune (he said he was a beginner to carb tuning)

Would a bolt-on Trick Flow head be less expensive than having someone pocket port a Edelbrock head? Labor $ add up real fast.

My pitiful solution to a vacuum problem;
Right Stuff Detailing EVP01 Right Stuff Detailing Vacuum Pumps | Summit Racing
The dollar issue of porting Edelbrock heads vs a OKTB TF head is down to the cost and work done by the machinist from start to finish is a variable no one can account for since prices and work performed vary to much from shop to shop never mind region. After one checks the prices differences in there region and preferred shop, then one could make a decision. While an argument can be made to start with a better head, the overall cost may be the determining factor. As it is now, we know the Edelbrock head is capable OOTB. Since the goal can be made with the OITB Edelbrock head, the only draw back is a limited ceiling on power production which seems not to be an issue for the OP. But will it later? Is it something a fully ported Edelbrock can solve? Knowing the mathematics of cylinder head flow coupled with the right cam and associated parts could very well produce an engine making an easy 1.2-1.3 ft pounds of torque and upper 500 to 600 hp, IMO, I think he is covered for a while.

is Molnar made in the USA or just final machining done state side ? Agree on the made in China stuff for 100 or 200 more I'll buy made in North America if possible

Without looking it up and going from memory, IIRC, it’s all American made start to finish. There are a few American made cranks. They are pricey. But there worth the price. Even more so if “Your going there” in terms of power.

The problem with the chink stuff is a lack of quality and adherence to what should be a final product spec. This may not be an issue with the Chinese. It is a two sided coin. If the Chinese aren’t doing what’s needed or asked in terms of meeting a spec, that’s on them. As of now, there doing a good job. The earlier Eagle cast cranks were not good and breaking under modest power. This has since been corrected. There forged cranks have always served well AFAIK.

I can’t remember hearing of a crank breakage on an aftermarket American crank in a long time. While I’m sure it’ll happen & has happened, no matter who’s crank it is, the reason why should be known before trashing the crank and the manufacturer.