Suggestions for new design Aluminum Mopar SB clean slate (kind of) cylinder heads

[Dale Davies]

Do not try and justify using junk **** ball stud rockers. It’s stupid. Why go backwards 6 DECADES?

For BPE the situation relates to production costs. Many engines use ball stud rockers that function very well. Are shafts more stabile? Yes. But for a street focused engine the stud mount are good for the cost. Also remember one of Johnny Mac's requirements was pushrod oiling. So that precludes the arguements. Shaft rocker assemblies are available for Ford and Chev applications that came originally with studs. For racers you can spend the required $.
We must keep the OP expressed conditions in mind with this.

 

[Dale Davies]

Is the plan for open or closed chamber heads

That is not expressed, but with the knowledge we have today open chamber is a nogo. Poor flame travel that promotes detonation. That slow flame speed requires more advance and is actually poor for emissions.
Seems the design iis intended toward Magnum, which should be closed chamber.

 

[446acuda]

All,

Time for our mopar sb lineup to get some love. I'd like to ask the masses to chime in with suggestions / observations for a BluePrint Engines Mopar SB cylinder head. (with a catch of course)

Here are some facts that are Non negotiable. Some of you won't love the "Limitations" , your opinions are welcome, but these are things I CANNOT change, based on block availability.

1. These will use pushrod oiling, and have stud mounted rockers. LA blocks in the world for a company of our Size are too sparse to use deck oiling or shaft rockers. Not interested in the cost of shaft rockers, or trying to oil shaft rockers through the pushrods. Just is what it is.
2. I hope to utilize the LA intake manifold bolt pattern opposed to magnum. Opens up aftermarket intake availability. I think the intake bolts (LA vs magnum) occupy the same realestate, so there won't be enough meat to machine both at the same time. has to be 1 or the other. correct me if i'm wrong.
3. Keeping in mind we're an engine manufacture first, not a head company....the idea is to use these on our engines first....and offer them to the aftermarket as capacity allows.
4. Must be magnum head -ish based. I cannot get into weird W2 ports, completely moving the pushrod holes, etc. These are primary going in 500HP and down cars, so they must fit without weird custom headers, use avail intakes, etc.

outside of the above, I would love to hear things you dislike about the other few heads on the market, or would change. EX: do the magnum edelbrocks have missing bolt bosses vs an LA? are magnum based heads fatter somewhere an LA isn't, so they make it hard to bolt on OE accessories. (may be completely false, just throwing out examples)

Should be a nice little 290 ish CFM street/strip head with a 2.08 intake valve that does everything we need it to do, w/o getting too exotic.

thanks everyone in advance for the input.

Since stud mounted rockers are required, is the head going to be rigid enough to use without a stud girdle... or is a stud girdle going to have to be used on solid roller high spring pressure applications?

 

[Dale Davies]

Symmetrical ports (ala SB2 NASCAR motor)? Maybe with an LS intake or something?

Direct injection?

Now you are way off the idea. Symetric ports requires new cams and manifolds.

7/16. Will use the same valvetrain we use in SBC's making 600 HP

Johnny Mac, you sure opened the fish bait can asking the Mopar crowd a question like this. Lots of hardcore racers that started to drool.at the mention of an Al head, and did not get past reading the rest of your requirements and stipulations.
Exciting presentation you have given.

 

[Rat Bastid]

That is not expressed, but with the knowledge we have today open chamber is a nogo. Poor flame travel that promotes detonation. That slow flame speed requires more advance and is actually poor for emissions.
Seems the design iis intended toward Magnum, which should be closed chamber

For BPE the situation relates to production costs. Many engines use ball stud rockers that function very well. Are shafts more stabile? Yes. But for a street focused engine the stud mount are good for the cost. Also remember one of Johnny Mac's requirements was pushrod oiling. So that precludes the arguements. Shaft rocker assemblies are available for Ford and Chev applications that came originally with studs. For racers you can spend the required $.
We must keep the OP expressed conditions in mind with this.

For BPE the situation relates to production costs. Many engines use ball stud rockers that function very well. Are shafts more stabile? Yes. But for a street focused engine the stud mount are good for the cost. Also remember one of Johnny Mac's requirements was pushrod oiling. So that precludes the arguements. Shaft rocker assemblies are available for Ford and Chev applications that came originally with studs. For racers you can spend the required $.
We must keep the OP expressed conditions in mind with this.

What do YOU think the cost difference is between shaft and stud rockers?

Look at the cost of a Speedmaster head. It has shaft rockers. So that’s an unrealistic idea that shaft rockers cost more.

All Blueprint wants to do is try and come up with a unicorn head. As long as you don’t move the pushrod it won’t be better than anything else out there.

Chrysler didn’t move the pushrod because they were stupid.

I‘m far from a “hardcore” racer and I read what he thinks he wants.

What he shouldn’t do is ask bubble gummers like you what the best head for a “street“ engine should be.

 

[rumblefish360]

Now you are way off the idea. Symetric ports requires new cams and manifolds.

Johnny Mac, you sure opened the fish bait can asking the Mopar crowd a question like this. Lots of hardcore racers that started to drool.at the mention of an Al head, and did not get past reading the rest of your requirements and stipulations.

Lack of reading/reading comprehension can s the issue combined with pipe dreams written down even though there ought side the parameters of what’s written.

Again, for me, a head that doesn’t interfere with the alternator, more room/metal to port the head is a home run.

I’d like shaft rockers myself even though it seems to be a no go thing in favor of the Chevy rocker set up. While I’m not amused with this since it’s not as good as a shaft rocker set up, it seems that getting the shaft design set up right is an issue. Why I don’t know but the two main culprits are shaft stand location and rocker design not being right for where the shaft stands are placed.

If the cheap Chevy rocker set up is done right & girdles are needed for a high rpm engine, then that’s what it’ll be.
Sometimes no matter what is said, the company doing the work will do what they wanna do.

So you might end up with a Chevy head fitting a Chrysler engine.

 

[273]

My guess for the chevy rocker magnum choice is probably most of their blocks are magnum so no cheap choice for shaft oiling, where I got a magnum I'd be interested if priced right.

 

[Johnny Mac]

Will these be less expensive that Trick Flow 190's?

Of course! And won't take expensive rockers.

 

[pittsburghracer]

Just posting this for the bigger “pinch” crowd. If you look closely at the one picture you can see where I slightly as planned kissed my brass tube. Doing this, pushing the common wall over, and raising the roof to the Edelbrock gaskets slowed the airspeed down from a pegged 401 fps flowing 260 cfm to a 375 max airspeed flowing 290 with a 2.02 valve. Same pinch will go 308-313 with a 2.055 valve, and 325-330 cfm with a 2.08 valve. There’s still material left to play with if I needed it but I don’t.

 

[Rat Bastid]

Just posting this for the bigger “pinch” crowd. If you look closely at the one picture you can see where I slightly as planned kissed my brass tube. Doing this, pushing the common wall over, and raising the roof to the Edelbrock gaskets slowed the airspeed down from a pegged 401 fps flowing 260 cfm to a 375 max airspeed flowing 290 with a 2.02 valve. Same pinch will go 308-313 with a 2.055 valve, and 325-330 cfm with a 2.08 valve. There’s still material left to play with if I needed it but I don’t.

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I know what you’re saying John, but there is more to it than just air speed and flow numbers.

The pinch is bad. You won’t find any decent head with that pinch there.

There is a reason TF only used a 2.02 valve.

 

[pittsburghracer]

I know what you’re saying John, but there is more to it than just air speed and flow numbers.

The pinch is bad. You won’t find any decent head with that pinch there.

There is a reason TF only used a 2.02 valve.

I know you continue to say this but my junk doesn’t run to bad for an engine being shifted at 6700 rpm. I think I have 5300.00 in this build so there are no “special” parts and still on an 11 year old port job on an open chamber Edelbrock head. The next set will be much better and hopefully will have a bigger cam than the present .650 lift.

 

[Rat Bastid]

I know you continue to say this but my junk doesn’t run to bad for an engine being shifted at 6700 rpm. I think I have 5300.00 in this build so there are no “special” parts and still on an 11 year old port job on an open chamber Edelbrock head. The next set will be much better and hopefully will have a bigger cam than the present .650 lift.

So what? You don’t think a decent prepped W2 (lets say with the same porting time you put into your heads) wouldn’t be much quicker and faster?

If you don’t think that you are just shitting yourself. BTDT. I can tell you that you are cylinder head limited. Because you are bracket racing and going as fast as you want you are happy.

But claiming the push rod pinch doesn’t matter is nuts.

You can’t just change the area in the port and not have consequences.

 

[Johnny Mac]

Machining complexity + extra specialty parts = $$$, I covered canting the intakes in post#115. Easier with keyed pedestal style rockers, but He wants studs & ball fullcrums, that means custom guide plates. That's more of both which bumps the price up. He's also not designing "World beater" heads, if You get the OP, these are hot street or street/strip target OOTB.

We will provide the guide plates with the heads when we get to retailing them. They won't add any cost. If we can make heads....we can make guideplates lol no worries there. We already do for sbc BBC sbf

 

[pittsburghracer]

So what? You don’t think a decent prepped W2 (lets say with the same porting time you put into your heads) wouldn’t be much quicker and faster?

If you don’t think that you are just shitting yourself. BTDT. I can tell you that you are cylinder head limited. Because you are bracket racing and going as fast as you want you are happy.

But claiming the push rod pinch doesn’t matter is nuts.

You can’t just change the area in the port and not have consequences.

Ohhh ok

 

[Johnny Mac]

Going to Johnny Mac's post he lists hard and fast requirements.
1: Stock port locations.
2: Stud mount rockers oiled through the pushrods.
I know valve length and installed heights. I went through this to install the LM7 valves in my 1966 289 heads.
As I mentioned, Magnum valves can be used. Pretty much all the OEM's are using beehive springs these days. My PAC springs were not cheap either. Now when Blue Print Engines orders up valve springs, they will be ordering a few sets more than you or I will ever use giving them a better price point. Now if they are building a bunch of Gen 3 GM engines and the same springs can be used the prices look better.
When designing a new head they can engineer in pretty much any installed height for the springs that work for them. They can specify valve stem lengths and head diameters to fit their needs and on their volumes the costs balance out a bunch.
Maybe Johnny Mac could comment a bit on this, with a vviewpoint from their end and considering input to this point.

I 100% will be looking at the springs we already purchase. If we can make these use the same springs we do on an LS, SBC, etc, that'll be great. And yes....we buy pallets of them at a time.

 

[Johnny Mac]

Is the plan for open or closed chamber heads

Closed like a Magnum was the plan

 

[12many]

the bigger “pinch” crowd.

Being as I did mention “pinch” I’ll just add that I brought up the mention particularly since Johnny Mac is talking essentially about producing an aluminum Magnum style head, or better yet one with similar layout perhaps as the NZ produced Enginquest CH318B, that the mention of “pinch” is valid as we’ve no idea yet on what the ports would look like or how much “pinch” there could be.
Hopefully not as much as the Magnum EQ’s (NZ made) as shown here (mild clean up on the ports, barely removed any material at the pinch as shown)
Lots of “Magnum based” being mentioned in this thread so......

 

[Johnny Mac]

Since stud mounted rockers are required, is the head going to be rigid enough to use without a stud girdle... or is a stud girdle going to have to be used on solid roller high spring pressure applications?

We use stud mount rockers on BBC engines with 850 hp, and 600 hp sbc's without girdles. Rocker arm issues really aren't something we see at all. If someone wants to add girdles, no problem, but we rarely see anyone use them on ours.

 

[bigfoot]

We use stud mount rockers on BBC engines with 850 hp, and 600 hp sbc's without girdles. Rocker arm issues really aren't something we see at all. If someone wants to add girdles, no problem, but we rarely see anyone use them on ours.

What are your spring pressures, and what rpm are you turning them?

 

[rumblefish360]

Girdles are for high rpm and/or very aggressive and high lifting cam lobes. They are, IMO, not a big deal. Considering BPE is concentrate on a street head, I think, IMO, it’s really a moot issue point to quibble about.

Again, IMO, Pittsburghracer shows this with Edelbrock’s street head. It is a replacement style head. He does very well with it and he reminded what it is as well as what it isn’t. It isn’t a race head.

If BPE makes an aluminum Magnum head with mild enhanced features like the Edelbrock head(s) Magnum & LA, it’ll be great. For me the home run will come when it can be ported out better than what a Edelbrock head can be done to.

For street bound cars, the Edelbrock head is very good and the Trick Flow is for a heavier hitting engine and car. If you need to step up beyond a TF head, your really looking at a race head now aren’t we and that’s beyond the scope of the question at hand by Johnnymac.

So what’s the point of talking about such a head?
It’s not coming.

 

[bigfoot]

Girdles are for high rpm and/or very aggressive and high lifting cam lobes. They are, IMO, not a big deal. Considering BPE is concentrate on a street head, I think, IMO, it’s really a moot issue point to quibble about.

Again, IMO, Pittsburghracer shows this with Edelbrock’s street head. It is a replacement style head. He does very well with it and he reminded what it is as well as what it isn’t. It isn’t a race head.

If BPE makes an aluminum Magnum head with mild enhanced features like the Edelbrock head(s) Magnum & LA, it’ll be great. For me the home run will come when it can be ported out better than what a Edelbrock head can be done to.

For street bound cars, the Edelbrock head is very good and the Trick Flow is for a heavier hitting engine and car. If you need to step up beyond a TF head, your really looking at a race head now aren’t we and that’s beyond the scope of the question at hand by Johnnymac.

So what’s the point of talking about such a head?
It’s not coming.

The point is with a few changes in the casting, it will work fine as a street head and crate engine head, AND hopefully provide a lower cost casting for the guys wanting to build a 650hp and up engine. Thats where there is a huge hole in the small mopar head market.

 

[fishmens67]

I think after the cost of research and development for such head is weighed in by BPE, the idea will be scrapped. imo
They will find it's more cost effective to go with the other guy's head.

 

[273]

The point is with a few changes in the casting, it will work fine as a street head and crate engine head, AND hopefully provide a lower cost casting for the guys wanting to build a 650hp and up engine. Thats where there is a huge hole in the small mopar head market.

That would be nice but wouldn't say it's a huge market 600+ hp sbm, I say 500-550 hp with 10:1 cr 235-245 cam etc.. and for a good chunk of change under Edelbrock, Trick Flow prices is where there's a potential market , Magnum head design is a good choice since it can easily go on both LA Magnum short blocks thats where speedmaster fell short if they were only gonna sell one platform should of been magnum.
Be nice if 290 cfm was as cast with enough meat to grow some.

 

[Johnny Mac]

I run 10.20's in a steel car with a head that barely flowed 280. I appreciate everyone's input, and I think this should be a fun project. Thanks all for pointing out things I hadn't thought of!!

 

[qkcuda]

Johnny, thanks for sticking with us on this, despite all of the arguing.