Super Victor port matching

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mopowers said:
I've heard and read nothing but great things about Wilson's intake porting service. I can only assume their reputation was built on the performance of their product and not looks.
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Andy F… Who posts on another Mopar forum a good bit, has designed and sold parts for Mopars, and is active in dynoing Mopars( especially big blocks) out West. Several years back had Wilson port a manifold for an already well flogged big block stroker he uses as a dyno mule.
Motor picked up like 30 horsepower after Wilson got done with it.
They most definitely know what they are doing, but, they certainly aren’t cheap.
If money was no object, I would send my heads and intake to them to have them sort out the intake to the heads.
 
B3422w5 said:
Andy F… Who posts on another Mopar forum a good bit, has designed and sold parts for Mopars, and is active in dynoing Mopars( especially big blocks) out West. Several years back had Wilson port a manifold for an already well flogged big block stroker he uses as a dyno mule.
Motor picked up like 30 horsepower after Wilson got done with it.
They most definitely know what they are doing, but, they certainly aren’t cheap.
If money was no object, I would send my heads and intake to them to have them sort out the intake to the heads.
Click to expand...


I rarely read your post anymore since I put you on ignore but curiously got the best of me. So Andy picked up 30 horsepower for 2000.00. I’ll show you some testing on different intakes and before and after number. Now before I go to far a good gasket match probably accounts for 70% of the gains. First example will be a Speedmaster that I bought on sale to port and sell. I don’t particularly like dual planes but they have their place.

Speedmaster


.550 lift. Before———-after

216. —— 242
Gains. 25

Super Victor

.650. ——— 268. -293
Gains 24

Victor340 on a TrickFlow head
.600. - 257. - 283
Gains 26

This is a 325.00 (at the time) job by a millwright turned head porter. How many horsepower should those numbers account for. There is no way in this world could I justify 2000.00 for any street car or bracket car.
 
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pittsburghracer said:
There is no way in this world could I justify 2000.00 for any street car or bracket car.
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John, as far as I can tell, no one is disagreeing with you. I basically said exactly what you just wrote in two of my posts. When I talked with them on the phone, I told them straight up that there was no way I could justify that kind of cost for my application. They understand, it's not for everyone. Paying them to do their thing is a choice, not a necessity. They seem to do very well without my money so no harm, no foul.

Would I like to have one of their pieces? Yes. Will I ever have a true need for one? Probably not. Was it worth the inquiry? Yes and in fact, it helped confirm my decision by illuminating exactly what I didn't need. Gotta start somewhere.

The problem is not everyone is able to port heads and intakes at home effectively. It takes an investment in tooling, time, effort and a willingness to accept screwing things up when you first learn the techniques. It's taken me 3 tries to get to where I am (I'm obviously still a hack). For those following along at home, that's 3 intakes I've rendered unusable. If I went to replace them with new ones I'd be out at least a grand. Plus buying burrs, sanding rolls, several sets of intake gaskets, Dykem etc. My time is worth something as well so however many hours I've spent bent over intakes breathing aluminum dust trying to figure out how to do this has to have value. When you add all that up, $2K does not sound so far fetched.

Again, I didn't post this thread to discuss the pros and cons of sending an intake to Wilson so let's put this topic to bed.

- Greg
 
rmchrgr said:
John, as far as I can tell, no one is disagreeing with you. I basically said exactly what you just wrote in two of my posts. When I talked with them on the phone, I told them straight up that there was no way I could justify that kind of cost for my application. They understand, it's not for everyone. Paying them to do their thing is a choice, not a necessity. They seem to do very well without my money so no harm, no foul.

Would I like to have one of their pieces? Yes. Will I ever have a true need for one? Probably not. Was it worth the inquiry? Yes and in fact, it helped confirm my decision by illuminating exactly what I didn't need. Gotta start somewhere.

The problem is not everyone is able to port heads and intakes at home effectively. It takes an investment in tooling, time, effort and a willingness to accept screwing things up when you first learn the techniques. It's taken me 3 tries to get to where I am (I'm obviously still a hack). For those following along at home, that's 3 intakes I've rendered unusable. If I went to replace them with new ones I'd be out at least a grand. Plus buying burrs, sanding rolls, several sets of intake gaskets, Dykem etc. My time is worth something as well so however many hours I've spent bent over intakes breathing aluminum dust trying to figure out how to do this has to have value. When you add all that up, $2K does not sound so far fetched.

Again, I didn't post this thread to discuss the pros and cons of sending an intake to Wilson so let's put this topic to bed.

- Greg
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The point I’m trying to make is 2000.00 is a lot of money for most of us guys. Money better spent on better heads, maybe towards a stocker, nice carb, Dana 60 rearend or 9 inch, etc.
 
pittsburghracer said:
The point I’m trying to make is 2000.00 is a lot of money for most of us guys. Money better spent on better heads, maybe towards a stocker, nice carb, Dana 60 rearend or 9 inch, etc.
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John, not everyone runs on a shoestring budget.

Some guys are check writers. Good on the those guys. I wish I could.

I’d bet all I have that I could take that Wilson manifold, burr finish it and not only pick up power, it would be quicker and faster in the car and I don’t give a crap what it said on the flow bench said.


Saying all that to say that I’d also bet most everything I have that Wilson KNOWS that smooth finish isn’t correct.

But doing it correctly with a burr would make it very hard to sell for that kind of money.

And the worst part of it is you can NOT convince most guys you can’t get an intake manifold too rough.
 
pittsburghracer said:
I rarely read your post anymore since I put you on ignore but curiously got the best of me. So Andy picked up 30 horsepower for 2000.00. I’ll show you some testing on different intakes and before and after number. Now before I go to far a good gasket match probably accounts for 70% of the gains. First example will be a Speedmaster that I bought on sale to port and sell. I don’t particularly like dual planes but they have their place.

Speedmaster


.550 lift. Before———-after

216. —— 242
Gains. 25

Super Victor

.650. ——— 268. -293
Gains 24

Victor340 on a TrickFlow head
.600. - 257. - 283
Gains 26

This is a 325.00 (at the time) job by a millwright turned head porter. How many horsepower should those numbers account for. There is no way in this world could I justify 2000.00 for any street car or bracket car.
Click to expand...

Don’t disagree with anything you said. 2000 is way above my pay grade too. Just reporting that to those who desire/ have the budget/ reason, they indeed do great work. Andy showed it. I am sure you have read about it yourself. 30 horse is a bunch. 2000 in a bunch too.
 
Newbomb Turk said:
John, not everyone runs on a shoestring budget.

Some guys are check writers. Good on the those guys. I wish I could.

I’d bet all I have that I could take that Wilson manifold, burr finish it and not only pick up power, it would be quicker and faster in the car and I don’t give a crap what it said on the flow bench said.


Saying all that to say that I’d also bet most everything I have that Wilson KNOWS that smooth finish isn’t correct.

But doing it correctly with a burr would make it very hard to sell for that kind of money.

And the worst part of it is you can NOT convince most guys you can’t get an intake manifold too rough.
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Then like I said 8 out of 10 guys prefer a burr finish. And you and I are in that 8 group. Pretty is for women not intake manifolds.
 
B3422w5 said:
Don’t disagree with anything you said. 2000 is way above my pay grade too. Just reporting that to those who desire/ have the budget/ reason, they indeed do great work. Andy showed it. I am sure you have read about it yourself. 30 horse is a bunch. 2000 in a bunch too.
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I guess it didn’t sink in what I was trying to get across to you. How much of a gain would you see from 25 cfm, how about 24 cfm, how about 26 cfm. I’m for sure betting more that 30 horsepower.
 
jbc426 said:
Does the smooth vs course finish apply to both dry and wet intakes?
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Yes and no.

If you have the injectors down at the manifold face then you burr finish the manifold to about 3 inches or so.

There is still reversion in that case. And that’s EFI.

If you are using a system that puts fuel in at the top of the intake like a carb you burr finish all of it.
 
pittsburghracer said:
I guess it didn’t sink in what I was trying to get across to you. How much of a gain would you see from 25 cfm, how about 24 cfm, how about 26 cfm. I’m for sure betting more that 30 horsepower.
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Heck if I know.
I have always went by the general rule of thumb 2 horse per cfm.
I know the Bloomer heads( if you put a ton of stock in flow numbers..I don’t) reach around 300 cfm peak. But have been proven to support way more than 600 horsepower.
Guess it depends on the bench and other stuff regards numbers.
My old W5 heads went 299 on a bench Best machine used, and made 700 according to track numbers. Another set of W5 heads a very well known Mopar head guy and engine builder did went just barely over 300 on Vic Bloomers bench years ago
Ryan told me mine went over 330 after he did them initially, so as far as numbers go, I tend to take them sceptically.
 
This is the finish the guy locally who did my intake left

IMG_0016.jpeg
 
I've read up on burr finish vs. smooth. At one point when grinding the S.V. I realized that you need to be pretty accurate to leave the burr finish especially around the edges. I have a good feel for how the burrs work now so I suppose I could go back and rough up the smoothed areas but I'm not sure I'd want to since I'm just happy that the intake is still usable.

To be clear, I didn't go as far as polishing the surfaces so I guess there's still some amount of texture. When I got the intake with the Hughes porting it essentially had the same finish as what I ended up with - not baby butt smooth but not 60 grit sand paper rough either. You can feel it with your finger tip. The smoothing only goes in a couple inches anyway so most of the runner is still 'as-cast' or minimally ground on without smoothing. All of the plenum is still as cast too.

Conversely, the ports on the heads are smooth from the CNC machining. There's certainly peaks and valleys from the machining though. Not sure if that is considered texture or not.

Don - I see guitar cases...
 
rmchrgr said:
I've read up on burr finish vs. smooth. At one point when grinding the S.V. I realized that you need to be pretty accurate to leave the burr finish especially around the edges. I have a good feel for how the burrs work now so I suppose I could go back and rough up the smoothed areas but I'm not sure I'd want to since I'm just happy that the intake is still usable.

To be clear, I didn't go as far as polishing the surfaces so I guess there's still some amount of texture. When I got the intake with the Hughes porting it essentially had the same finish as what I ended up with - not baby butt smooth but not 60 grit sand paper rough either. You can feel it with your finger tip. The smoothing only goes in a couple inches anyway so most of the runner is still 'as-cast' or minimally ground on without smoothing. All of the plenum is still as cast too.

Conversely, the ports on the heads are smooth from the CNC machining. There's certainly peaks and valleys from the machining though. Not sure if that is considered texture or not.

Don - I see guitar cases.
Click to expand...

Just an FYI I always finish the ports and manifold to an 80 grit finish and then I burr finish.
 
rmchrgr said:
I've read up on burr finish vs. smooth. At one point when grinding the S.V. I realized that you need to be pretty accurate to leave the burr finish especially around the edges. I have a good feel for how the burrs work now so I suppose I could go back and rough up the smoothed areas but I'm not sure I'd want to since I'm just happy that the intake is still usable.

To be clear, I didn't go as far as polishing the surfaces so I guess there's still some amount of texture. When I got the intake with the Hughes porting it essentially had the same finish as what I ended up with - not baby butt smooth but not 60 grit sand paper rough either. You can feel it with your finger tip. The smoothing only goes in a couple inches anyway so most of the runner is still 'as-cast' or minimally ground on without smoothing. All of the plenum is still as cast too.

Conversely, the ports on the heads are smooth from the CNC machining. There's certainly peaks and valleys from the machining though. Not sure if that is considered texture or not.

Don - I see guitar cases...
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If I ported with the bur you are using I would quit today. I gave those away years ago.
 
rmchrgr said:
To these heads. (BPE) Intake ports are 2 1/2" tall and a few thousandths wider than standard gasket opening size. Gaskets hung over the roof and floor too much to leave alone. Looking down the runner through the plenum things line up much better now.
View attachment 1716308874

So (thankfully) this is an older Super Victor without the injector bosses. I am also happy to report that my cool-guy reverse-lip valve covers appear to fit. The previous owner painted it 273 red which eventually will be gone. He told me it fit under his flat hood. We'll see I guess.

At some point prior to my ownership it had been gasket matched by Hughes. It was a pretty nice job and I did feel a bit bummed about going over their work but what can you do. Someone told me their porter retired and they don't do it any more.

Overall, I'm OK with it. Couple flubs here and there but no catastrophic damage. My goal was to avoid bell-mouthing the openings as best as I could but easier said than done. No plenum work save for lightly smoothing a casting line under the carb flange. No other plenum work is planned for now.

It's not perfect but you get the idea. The sanding rolls help me see the final shape a little better but I know a lot of people like a burr finish these days. For what it's worth, Hughes used sanding rolls but I'm guessing they probably did this job more than 10 years ago. The dividers look wavy in these pics but they are not.
View attachment 1716308867View attachment 1716308868View attachment 1716308869View attachment 1716308870View attachment 1716308871View attachment 1716308872View attachment 1716308873

I definitely have some hours into this intake but it feels like I've spent more time trying to cut the gaskets out to the right size cleanly.

-Greg
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Nice work. That red intake looks familiar. lol
It''s going to be a nice piece. Cant wait to hear about how it performs.
 
Dang nice work you did there, @rmchrgr . I should send you my UNported Super Victor. Maybe them I could push it over the edge and get that elusive 10 sec timeslip. Lol

Well done!!
 
B3422w5 said:
What intake do you have now?
I am of the belief that not all combo’s will benefit with that swap.
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I run a completely untouched Super Victor. When you look down the plenum, the head ports line up about perfectly hence left it untouched. But I'm sure some roof blending and runner entry work would benefit it. Someday!!
 
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