Testing the HiRev 7500

[Mattax]

It depends on the type box and how crappy it is. Some actually have high RPM retard designed it to help protect against detonation at high RPM.

It's clear as mud whether any retard was purposely built into HEI or other units, or this was just some BS marketing people came up with as they struggled to explain what was happening. See that link on Speedtalk I posted earlier the thread.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

The next test should be a Pertronix I.. I want to see no spark scatter at 11,000.

I’ve tested a couple of those, but it’s been several years. I know they were not bad but I don’t recall the details.

If I can find one I’ll test it.

I have several Unilite’s sitting around. I can test one as a stand alone and with the box when get a minute.

 

[toolmanmike]

I’ve tested a couple of those, but it’s been several years. I know they were not bad but I don’t recall the details.

If I can find one I’ll test it.

I have several Unilite’s sitting around. I can test one as a stand alone and with the box when get a minute.

That would be great. One magnetic, and one optical. It would be interesting how they perform and compare.

 

[Mattax]

Okay, for us dummies who are struggling to understand this, tell me if this is correct. The timing retard on all these boxes doesn't really become significant until high rpms. 7,000, 7,500, etc. For a motor that only goes to 5500-6,000, it is not a significant problem.

I think the answer to this is yes and no, depending on how the distributor is set up.
In practice, as @GTX JOHN @92b and @MOPARMAGA posted, the effect can be seen 3000 - 6000.

To be clear, the effect being discussed is the apparent retard. Spark scatter and strength is a different matter we can come back to later.
The timing retard seen in the videos is coming from the time it takes for all of the components to react to the signal created in the distributor and the coil releasing high energy. Its the time it takes for each and every electrical and electronic switch to react and do whatever it needs to do. A question raised is whether the type of initial signal is a part of that sequence? For example mechanical switch (points) versus magnetic pickup versus optical (Hall effect). But regardless, most of the time taken is in the electronics.

So, if we locked a distributor, as shown in the videos, then the retard seems to be fairly linear.
Lets say we have a system with slew of 1* per 1000 rpm.
If Joe Cuda sets up his engine timing to be locked at 32* BTC and checks it at 1500 rpm, and then 2500 rpm he may not notice that 1* retard.
His engine won't idle at 500 rpm, so starting at 1500 the engine sees 32, then 2500 it sees 31*BTC, @ 3500 its 30* BTC, and @4500 rpm its down to 29* and by the time its nearing peak Hp at 6500 its 27*.

None of this slew effect shows up on a factory distributor setup.
The mechanical advance rate is more than 1* per 1000 rpm. So when we check timing on the engine, we never see the slew rate until after the advance stops.
When Direct Connection released their electronic ignition race distributors (aka tach drive distributor), the slew rate compensation was built in using a very heavy secondary spring. The explanation in the book may have been slightly off, but the importance was understood even if the bulletin writer didn't fully know why.

The problems with retard mostly show up when the distributor advance is set up to be "all in" at low to mid rpm.

Lets look at a factory high performance timing.
Here's the limits considered acceptable when the inital timing was set to be 10* at 650 rpm.

And this is the timing curve of a Chrysler built MP distributor I measured on my 340.
In this case timing was set at 32* at 2800 rpm.

Whatever retard existed in the ignition system (MSD 6T) is covered or hidden by the mechanical advance.

The problems with slew I ran into with that engine came along when I tried out (a) shortening the advance by stopping the weights early and
(b) using the then new 'adjustable' MP distributor built by Mallory (promoted by the experts as the new trick.)

With the Mallory advance mechanism, the timing was "all in" around 2500 rpm. Early on I started to get timing measurements indicating retard or bounce (or both) about 1000 rpm above the "all in"

^^^This shows advance^^^ its not timing on engine. Add the initial timing to the advance to get timing on the engine that I measured. All of these were measured on the engine, not the Sun machine.

Even after I was able to slow down the YH advance enough to solve the part throttle pinging (another reason no to be "all in" when using vacuum advance), the retard shows up.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

I think the answer to this is yes and no, depending on how the distributor is set up.
In practice, as @GTX JOHN @92b and @MOPARMAGA posted, the effect can be seen 3000 - 6000.

To be clear, the effect being discussed is the apparent retard. Spark scatter and strength is a different matter we can come back to later.
The timing retard seen in the videos is coming from the delay in all of the components to react to the signal created in the distributor and the coil releasing high energy. Its the time it takes for each and every electrical and electronic switch to react and do whatever it needs to do. A question raised is whether the type of initial signal is a part of that sequence? For example mechanical switch (points) versus magnetic pickup versus optical (Hall effect). But regardless, most of the time taken is in the electronics.

So, if we locked a distributor, as shown in the videos, then the retard seems to be fairly linear.
Lets say we have a system with slew of 1* per 1000 rpm.
If Joe Cuda sets up his engine timing to be locked at 32* BTC and checks it at 1500 rpm, and then 2500 rpm he may not notice that 1* retard.
His engine won't idle at 500 rpm, so starting at 1500 the engine sees 32, then 2500 it sees 31*BTC, @ 3500 its 30* BTC, and @4500 rpm its down to 29* and by the time its nearing peak Hp at 6500 its 27*.

None of this slew effect shows up on a factory distributor setup.
The mechanical advance rate is more than 1* per 1000 rpm. So when we check timing on the engine, we never see the slew rate until after the advance stops.
When Direct Connection released their electronic ignition race distributors (aka tach drive distributor), the slew rate compensation was built in using a very heavy secondary spring. The explanation in the book may have been slightly off, but the importance was understood even if the bulletin writer didn't fully know why.
View attachment 1716384260


The problems with retard mostly show up when the distributor advance is set up to be "all in" at low to mid rpm.

Lets look at a factory high performance timing.
Here's the limits considered acceptable when the inital timing was set to be 10* at 650 rpm.
View attachment 1716384264

And this is the timing curve of a Chrysler built MP distributor I measured on my 340.
In this case timing was set at 32* at 2800 rpm.
View attachment 1716384265

Whatever retard existed in the ignition system (MSD 6T) is covered or hidden by the mechanical advance.

The problems with slew I ran into with that engine came along when I tried out (a) shortening the advance by stopping the weights early and
(b) using the then new 'adjustable' MP distributor built by Mallory (promoted by the experts as the new trick.)

With the Mallory advance mechanism, the timing was "all in" around 2500 rpm. Early on I started to get timing measurements indicating retard or bounce (or both) about 1000 rpm above the "all in"
View attachment 1716384273
^^^This shows advance^^^ its not timing on engine. Add the initial timing to the advance to get timing on the engine that I measured. All of these were measured on the engine, not the Sun machine.

Even after I was able to slow down the YH advance enough to solve the part throttle pinging (another reason no to be "all in" when using vacuum advance), the retard shows up.
View attachment 1716384277

This should be a technical sticky. OUTSTANDING.

Also, I’ve never seen a real linear retard. I’ve seen them start at 1500 and I’ve seen them start at 6k.

On average the retard can be 1-2 degrees per 1k rpm. That orange box hanging on the wall is more retard per rpm than 2 degrees per 1k rpm.

 

[Mattax]

after all doesn't matter what happens before as long as the spark arrives at the right time

Exactly!

probably explains why the advance curve set in a points distributor from the factory differs so from the curve in an electronic...

Maybe.
Without having access to internal memos and documents its hard to know if any changes in the curves were due to performance goals or simply response to changes in engine design and emissions goals.
Got to go to '67 for US 49 state non-emissions timing curves in the shop manuals (or Sun cards, etc).
Electronic ignitions came in mostly 1972 and 73 model years.

Here's a couple of comparisons that are interesting.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

The first 5 min was enough or me.
What the gentleman ignores is that it could be the electronics in his m/c that is causing the retard.

The only true way to see if the ign is retarding [ or advancing ] is to watch the ign trace on a dual trace osciloscope, where you can see the initial generation of the spark v the spark being delivered on the time axis. Once you have the time difference & rpm, you can calculate any retard.

After a two and and a half hour conversation about this, my answer is correct.

The operation of the Allen machines are different than a Sun machine. They are from two different eras.

The answer is my machine is fast enough that is isn’t skewing the results.

As the video shows, the ignition is the same as it would be run in the car.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

I'm not saying that boxes don't retard but I have seen timing retard go from 6ish degrees of retard to 1ish degree with the same box and two different types of distributors. On running engines not a distributor machine. I don't know for sure but I think the results will be the same on a distributor machine. Most test including this one are done with the same type of distributor. Self generating ac signal.

Exactly. But that’s a different issue and it has zero bearing on my testing.

 

[MILO]

My 67 GTX 4-Speed has points in the distributor and its a high winder no problems with power If I have a passenger they have to hang on

 

[RustyRatRod]

My 67 GTX 4-Speed has points in the distributor and its a high winder no problems with power If I have a passenger they have to hang on

Dang right. They work well when they are maintained. That's all it takes.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Exactly. But that’s a different issue and it has zero bearing on my testing.

I just left a message. Call me back.

 

[bee1971]

all very interesting

you weren't as shouty and angry as i expected ..... some might say "real life" affable.. in fact

probably explains why the advance curve set in a points distributor from the factory differs so from the curve in an electronic...
they chose which compromise they wanted to live with,
mechanical switch that wears out, burns out, limits current and involves some owner skill to replace and set up or 2 of them that takes even more skill to set up
or
an electronic switch where the timing varied in what was probably, with one manufacturer and a known supplier of parts, a predictable way, that could be masked by a different curve...on a system that involved less skill to set up.... 1 brass feeler gauge and a light.

after all doesn't matter what happens before as long as the spark arrives at the right time

cost of support and ease of ownership won out...

its all linked to the current in the primary and the coil used...higher current, the faster coil gets to max flux, the shorter dwell needed, the higher rpm or greater no of cylinders supported. trouble is you have to switch that current and too much will wreck your switch.

i remember arguing with a fella who insisted a coil with a primary made from solid copper would be great, think of the current said he...!....
A slight misunderstanding or transformer theory was leading him way way down the wrong path


Dave

its all linked to the current in the primary and the coil used...higher current, the faster coil gets to max flux, the shorter dwell needed, the higher rpm or greater no of cylinders supported. trouble is you have to switch that current and too much will wreck your switch.

THIS ^^^

In the video you mentioned a canister coil that everyone uses - What would that be ? because isn’t that 90% of the issues to begin with , incorrect ignition coil - Yes you mentioned a better ignition coil with these ignition control modules , and what would that bee ?

And then you add or subtract the incorrect ballast resistor used or not = ####

Way to many variables

 

[Bewy]

The time taken for the primary side of the coil to reach it's max current rating [ saturation ] is based on the inductance, not the current value. More inductance, more time reqd to saturate.

 

[MILO]

I remember when magnetos were the rage And no batteries needed

 

[Bewy]

They are not anymore for very good reasons!
It is the heat in the spark that ignites the mixture, & the heat comes from the current in the spark.
Newbomb Turk claimed in a post a few weeks ago that a 3 amp magneto gave a hotter spark than HEI. Absolute nonsense! After 4 requests of proof of this claim, he provided a video that gave the magneto specs.
Spark current was 58 mA. About 1/3rd that of a Blaster 2 coil [ 140mA ] & about a 1/4 of tthe HEI coil [ 200 mA ].

 

[Newbomb Turk]

They are not anymore for very good reasons!
It is the heat in the spark that ignites the mixture, & the heat comes from the current in the spark.
Newbomb Turk claimed in a post a few weeks ago that a 3 amp magneto gave a hotter spark than HEI. Absolute nonsense! After 4 requests of proof of this claim, he provided a video that gave the magneto specs.
Spark current was 58 mA. About 1/3rd that of a Blaster 2 coil [ 140mA ] & about a 1/4 of tthe HEI coil [ 200 mA ].

I’ll make it simple for you.

When an HEI is used to fire a fuel burning funny car, then I’ll say you are correct.

A 3 amp mag will out perform ANY battery fired ignition. PERIOD.

The reason they are not used much any more are pretty simple.

Dumb asses like Warren Johnson (among others) claimed it took too much power to drive a mag. That’s a lie. It takes LESS than 1 hp to drive a mag. How do I know? My machine will spin a mag and it has a 1 hp motor.

Then there was the high RPM retard. People make a big deal about it, but the fact is every single OE and aftermarket ignition retards with RPM.

Of course, the size is an issue. It’s a ***** fitting a mag with a tunnel ram. You can buy an offset drive but those are hard to fit in some cars.

And probably the biggest issue next to the lies is the fact than an actual magneto (one without a points box) is difficult to get a two step and retards to work. And rev limiters. I never ran a rev limiter but I wish I had a two step.

Those are the FACTS. Your HEI is nothing special. There is not even a single HEI zone any blown alcohol engine worth a ****.

Let me know when your HEI will fire a 99% load of fuel.

I’ll wait…

 

[Bewy]

Turk,
Those are your 'facts'...in your head....not the reality in real life. A 3 amp mag is a low output mag. A 44 amp is not. It is the heat in the spark that ignites the mixture; the heat comes from current. A 3 amp xyz generates 3 amps of current. A stock HEI module puts 5.5 -5.6 amps into the coil, nearly double.....
And post some evidence of a 3 amp magneto igniting a 99% fuel load.

 

[RustyRatRod]

Turk,
Those are your 'facts'...in your head....not the reality in real life. A 3 amp mag is a low output mag. A 44 amp is not. It is the heat in the spark that ignites the mixture; the heat comes from current. A 3 amp xyz generates 3 amps of current. A stock HEI module puts 5.5 -5.6 amps into the coil, nearly double.....
And post some evidence of a 3 amp magneto igniting a 99% fuel load.

View attachment 1716386316

Spark current ignite gasoline? Not when I strike a match or spark a flint. It's the flame or spark.

 

[Bewy]

Can you read?
I said it is 'the heat in the spark' that ignites the mixture. Pure gasoline does not burn, it requires the oxygen in the air to burn. That is what burns in the chamber, the O2, not the gasoline. The gas is merely the catalyst.

 

[4spdragtop]

 

[RustyRatRod]

Can you read?
I said it is 'the heat in the spark' that ignites the mixture. Pure gasoline does not burn, it requires the oxygen in the air to burn. That is what burns in the chamber, the O2, not the gasoline. The gas is merely the catalyst.

I was pokin fun at you. I read fine and I don't have to resort to insults.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

Turk,
Those are your 'facts'...in your head....not the reality in real life. A 3 amp mag is a low output mag. A 44 amp is not. It is the heat in the spark that ignites the mixture; the heat comes from current. A 3 amp xyz generates 3 amps of current. A stock HEI module puts 5.5 -5.6 amps into the coil, nearly double.....
And post some evidence of a 3 amp magneto igniting a 99% fuel load.

View attachment 1716386316

What’s funny is people read this **** you post and laugh their asses off. They understand that you haven’t a clue.

I don’t need to post anything. You’ll argue it to death even when you are wrong.

And just like the puke you are, you have fucked up another thread. It’s classic you.

What I want you to do is post up YOUR testing. Show us your test bench, how you do the tests and show your results.

You won’t because you can’t.

A 3 amp mag will fire 2500 plus hp on blown alcohol with a .026 gap.

A single 5 amp mag will fire 99% nitro up to what? 6000-7000 hp. Two 5 amp mags will fire 9000-10,000 hp.

How do I know? Because that’s the power levels for the era of the time when it was being done. That’s historical fact you idiot.

Again, I understand how MSD rates their mags. It’s bullshit. Mallory rated their mags the way mags were rated from when they were developed.

So let’s **** up the thread some more to show what a Buffon you are.

The heat energy is what fires the plug. You didn’t drop a knowledge bomb on anyone here. What I’m telling you is your beloved HEI doesn’t come close to developing the heat energy of an internal coil (think Vertex and many others) magneto. Not even close.

The external coil mags, like the Mallory generate far more energy than the internal coil mags. Let’s not forget that rare earth magnets make it so you never have to recharge the magnets.

Another thing about magnetos that make them different from ANY battery fired ignition is that with RPM they develop MORE spark energy, while every battery fired ignition will develop LESS spark energy with RPM.

There is a HUGE difference between firing a 15:1 NA alcohol engine at 8500 with a mag (and say a .028 plug gap) and trying to do the same with ANY battery fired ignition. Been there, done that on my own **** and with customer engines.

Someday, when you grow up and put on your big boy pants, you’ll do you own testing and post the results I your own words rather than relying on guys like Vizard who write books and never see the track.

A magneto will best your beloved HEI in every way, and in the ONLY away that matters and that’s horsepower.

Of course, you could build say a 730 hp 15:1 alcohol NA engine, one that actually makes 730 at 8500 and test your HEI verses a mag and prove me wrong.

In your own words and your own testing.

We all wait for your results.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

I was pokin fun at you. I read fine and I don't have to resort to insults.

When you figure out he is THE village idiot you’ll be better off.

I have a friend watching the two threads I posted. He laughs at the nonsense he posts.

Bewy and his half brother 92b love to trash a thread with bullshit, equivocate like mad, throw in a bunch of what if’s and why to for’s and then expect an answer when they know full well no matter what the answer is they’ll do more of the same.

Did you ever notice those two clowns NEVER a post anything they do? Ever? I don’t mean **** like Bewy loves to post about his 6,500 pound, four wheel drive Pontiac station wagon with a 326 and a power glide running 8 seconds flat on an uphill track in the snow type ****. Oh yeah, with a dead stock 1979 HEI and 1979 plug wires to boot. It just has that magic coil.

I’m talking about showing some actual testing of ANYTHING he does. You never see that. Because he doesn’t do it.

It gets damn old dealing with clowns like those two. Neither of them ever post their work.

But bet your *** if I post something they demand (Jpar is another village idiot who does the same thing) video proof of whatever it is or it doesn’t work. Yet they never do it themselves.

Bewy is quick to grab a book and post other people’s work, but of course he never tests to verify if the tests he’s reading about are actually true.

It’s sad really. Like I said, some very smart people are watching these two threads and they laugh at the idiocy put forth by these clowns.

I think the real pisser for guys like this is the FACT that the Hi Rev 7500 box is just as good and capable as any other ignition in the same class. Like 450-500 hp and down.

Obviously the tests I posted show how these boxes all retard. I’ve tested every trigger except the Ford and that’s just because one hasn’t come in and I’m not going to buy one of those just to test it.

The fact is single point, dual points, magnetic pick up or optical triggers ALL show zero retard below about 8,000 rpm. Over that you might see a crank degree of retard. Maybe.

Of course, many older distributor machines only rpm to 6k and a few go to 8k. Mine will do 11,000 rpm easily and I’m sure it would do 12k if I went in and did a bit of maintenance on the drive.

The upshot of all this is simple. The retard seen in my testing is all the box under 8k. All of it.

I don’t see anyone running out to their shop, firing up their test bench and proving my testing wrong. Because they can’t.

And once again an entire thread has **** the bed because one or two clowns have to confuse everyone with their bullshit.

Hopefully at least some people will learn from this and find a guy with a test bench local to them so they can test their entire ignition system as it runs in the car. Then it won’t matter if the retard is in the box or the trigger or anywhere else.

I’ll say it one more time for clarity.

The Allen 22-250 can test any trigger as a stand alone unit.

That means I can lock it out and test for retard. I can put the curve back in and change it, with just the distributor.

It doesn’t work the same way as a Sun machine.

 

[RustyRatRod]

When you figure out he is THE village idiot you’ll be better off.

I have a friend watching the two threads I posted. He laughs at the nonsense he posts.

Bewy and his half brother 92b love to trash a thread with bullshit, equivocate like mad, throw in a bunch of what if’s and why to for’s and then expect an answer when they know full well no matter what the answer is they’ll do more of the same.

Did you ever notice those two clowns NEVER a post anything they do? Ever? I don’t mean **** like Bewy loves to post about his 6,500 pound, four wheel drive Pontiac station wagon with a 326 and a power glide running 8 seconds flat on an uphill track in the snow type ****. Oh yeah, with a dead stock 1979 HEI and 1979 plug wires to boot. It just has that magic coil.

I’m talking about showing some actual testing of ANYTHING he does. You never see that. Because he doesn’t do it.

It gets damn old dealing with clowns like those two. Neither of them ever post their work.

But bet your *** if I post something they demand (Jpar is another village idiot who does the same thing) video proof of whatever it is or it doesn’t work. Yet they never do it themselves.

Bewy is quick to grab a book and post other people’s work, but of course he never tests to verify if the tests he’s reading about are actually true.

It’s sad really. Like I said, some very smart people are watching these two threads and they laugh at the idiocy put forth by these clowns.

I think the real pisser for guys like this is the FACT that the Hi Rev 7500 box is just as good and capable as any other ignition in the same class. Like 450-500 hp and down.

Obviously the tests I posted show how these boxes all retard. I’ve tested every trigger except the Ford and that’s just because one hasn’t come in and I’m not going to buy one of those just to test it.

The fact is single point, dual points, magnetic pick up or optical triggers ALL show zero retard below about 8,000 rpm. Over that you might see a crank degree of retard. Maybe.

Of course, many older distributor machines only rpm to 6k and a few go to 8k. Mine will do 11,000 rpm easily and I’m sure it would do 12k if I went in and did a bit of maintenance on the drive.

The upshot of all this is simple. The retard seen in my testing is all the box under 8k. All of it.

I don’t see anyone running out to their shop, firing up their test bench and proving my testing wrong. Because they can’t.

And once again an entire thread has **** the bed because one or two clowns have to confuse everyone with their bullshit.

Hopefully at least some people will learn from this and find a guy with a test bench local to them so they can test their entire ignition system as it runs in the car. Then it won’t matter if the retard is in the box or the trigger or anywhere else.

I’ll say it one more time for clarity.

The Allen 22-250 can test any trigger as a stand alone unit.

That means I can lock it out and test for retard. I can put the curve back in and change it, with just the distributor.

It doesn’t work the same way as a Sun machine.

Just like AJ. You never see anything he's built, present or past. Nothing he's ever done. Nothing. Same thing.

Did your friend ever give an opinion on my slant 6 dual point distributor? I may just sling it in and see what happens.

 

[Newbomb Turk]

Just like AJ. You never see anything he's built, present or past. Nothing he's ever done. Nothing. Same thing.

Did your friend ever give an opinion on my slant 6 dual point distributor? I may just sling it in and see what happens.

Call me tomorrow. Or later today as it’s today already lol.

If I don’t answer I’ll call you back. I’ve got a Chevrolet turd on the dyno and I’ll be making pulls.

I’m a bit deaf but it’s hard to hear the phone ring when the engine is running.