Thinking outside the box

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lol... we were supposed to be discussing that...

Bill, no, no Ford guy ever. I think my 2nd best would be Pontiac. I learned to drive on one, and owned one for 2 weeks in 1990. Everything else has been a Mopar for me. I was referrring to Stock Eliminator. Not a person "SE". My point was in line with the comment 340 Drunk had posted about no other work but the valve job. That was funny, and again displays a certain ignorance of anything but small words read and pretty pictures looked at. My most informative years in terms of cylinder heads were working with Jaques and his crowd.
 
moper said:
lol... we were supposed to be discussing that...

Bill, no, no Ford guy ever. I think my 2nd best would be Pontiac. I learned to drive on one, and owned one for 2 weeks in 1990. Everything else has been a Mopar for me. I was referrring to Stock Eliminator. Not a person "SE". My point was in line with the comment 340 Drunk had posted about no other work but the valve job. That was funny, and again displays a certain ignorance of anything but small words read and pretty pictures looked at. My most informative years in terms of cylinder heads were working with Jaques and his crowd.
Click to expand...


"STOCK ELIMINATOR" = "SE"
I didn't "get it", and wondered if you were talking aboiut a good friend of mine who races in Stock (drives Jim Hale's '67 G/SA 383 Barracuda), whose nane is "S.E. Buchanan." He's an experienced Stock and Super Stock driver, having won the Indy Nationals a couple of times in a '69 Mustang 428CJ 4-speed car, but also drove the Banning/Slaughter '68 Barracuda S/S AA Hemi car for several years.

I used to run a Stocker, but haven't for years. A couple of my close friends do, however, and I stay current by going to the races with them sometimes, and reading a lot (Nat'l DRAGSTER, all the Mopar magazines, Hot Rod, Car Craft, Car and Driver, etc...) I frequent ClassRacer.com which is a website for Stock and S/S owners, drivers, and fans. Also, I was a tech guy at the drags for about eight years. Been involved in a lot of different ways, since 1955... (no typo; I was 17 when I got hooked that year...)

I just want some better heads for my Magnum without having to go into debt for them, and to get a 300+ intake port is $$$$$$$$ the way things stand. The reference to the LQ9 head was just an example showing that an out-of-the-box 300+cfm head with a true wedge valve arrangement was not only possible, but already a reality. So, it CAN be done...

I remembered the Booth/Arons AMC welded "TALL-PORT" heads of 1970-'71 and thought, why can't EQ, or somebody do that with a Magnum head??????

It sure would solve a lot of problems for me, all at once!8)

Orivbably not gonna happen
 
I see what you are saying. But if eddys, that are just moded stock dezigns are to much money for you. I don't know how a highly moded one with a changed port, that requires a different intake and exhaust are going to be more affordable.

My dad has a set of LS-7 heads on his C5R block. Let me tell you. They are not cheep!

The LS-1 LS-2 and LS-6 heads have the tall port. The bad dog LS-7 heads that are on the 500 HP vetts have rectangle ports. They are short and wide. Why? I don't know. But they are the heads out of all the LS type heads that are the badest. The only better ones I know of are the C5R race heads that are 5000$ or so.
 
Burntorange,
Thanks for the information.

Here's what I know (which isn't much) about the Corvette-based head deal...

Car Craft had an article about Chevy truck motors that were based on that new LS whatever design. After they dynoed it, they put a set of brand-new, out-of-the-box, Escalade aluminum heds on it and picked up considerable horsepower. Those aluminum Escalade heads are, according to that Car Craft article, just $800.00 a SET, complete with valves and springs, ready to bolt on, and they flow OVER 300cfm. They out-flow a lot of CNC-ported LS-1 heads. I don't think they are of the tall-port, "Cathedral-port" configuration, but that doesn't matter... they work.

These new heads that EQ casts are CHEAP, mainly because they're cast iron, I think. I just figured if they could raise the roof of the port about 3/4" and put longer valves in them,possibly, they wouldn't necessarily have to cost any more (or, MUCH more) than the heads they're selling now, and would flow a lot better, due to the increased port volume (taller.) A modified intake manifold would be needed to match the taller ports (and it would have to be a little wider), and longer head bolts, but all the same Magnum rocker arms, ball/stud pivots, etc. could be used, since they wouldn't need the kind of sideways offset that T-A and W-2 heads have... Also, longer pushrods would be needed, since the rocker arms would be farther from the cam.

So, I was hoping for a setup where the heads (cast iron) might not be expensive due to the material, and the only other changes that would cost much would be a new intake manifold with taller ports, the longer valves (maybe not necessary, I don't know) and 16 longer pushrods and head bolts. Of course, there would be some engineering costs to amortize, but since so little is changed (except for the height) that it might not be prohibitive.

Whether that would be cost effective, I don't know, but you'd have to compare it with a stage III CNC ported Edelbrock head, since this raised port cast iron head WOULD have to flow over 300cfm., or it wouldn't be worth the trouble.
Eddy heads that flow that much are fairly expensive, I think.

Just food for thought; nobody will ever do that, probably, but I think it's a nice possibility. Mega-flow for cheap...

It galls me that GM is selling those 300cfm Escalade heads that cheap, and I have to pay an arm and a leg for heads that flow that well for my 360 to compete.

However... I'd rather push a Mopar than drive a Chevy.... Believe it!8)

Bill, in Conway, Arkansas
 
I think the reason you dont see cheap 300cfm LA based heads is simple... You have to redesign the entire vlavetrain and intake system. The Magnums didnt even come close. They got cheaper to produce, not tremendously better. If one adds good injection and a mild hydraulic roller to an LA, you will get almost identical performance and economy, with a mild increase in emmssions. IMo, mopar has been asleep in the engine department. The new Hemi to me is not state of the art. Simply state of the art for Mopar. The big numbers wouldnt be cheap. Note all the W series packages that require the offset arms and different valve angles and everything tha accompanies those changes. The LS series engines are designed with many of these better features already.
 
Sadly, I think the Magnum heads are our version of the Escalade heads for the Chevy guys.

The reason they're cheap is because they're mass produced, the Chevy guys just happened to get lucky and theirs are aluminum and (and theirs don't crack).

Steve
 
Great thread, To bad 3404spdvaliant couldnt discus the topic without attacking people. He usually had some good info.
 
>>>He usually had some good info.<<<

Yeah; some of it was even true...:profilel:

I don't think for a minute that this tall port head is going to happen, but I do think it's feasible. My contention is that only the head bolts, valves and pushrods would need to be changed if the Magnum-style rockers were used. The rocker arms would be sitting higher (farther from the cam), but in the same location, laterally, so why would they need to be changed at all?

Same cam, lifters, rockers, valve springs, retainers, keepers... only the pushrods would need to be different (longer.)

A taller intake port would be the only real change to this system, which would, of course, dictate a wider intake manifold with taller ports.

I think the exhaust port would be okay to leave as it is, meaning the headers would be unchanged, too.

In the meantime, I'll have to rely on this hairdryer (see attachment below) for my 300cfm intake charge, and hope that EQ will eventually do something like this "tall port" idea that I can afford.

Hope they hurry; I don't have forever... LOL!

Bill, in Conway, Arkansas

100_1958222.jpg
 
Would think if you could aford that little jewel you could aford a desent set of heads?
 
Believe me, if I'd had ANY IDEA of how much it was going to cost me to supercharge this thing (and, do it right), I wouldn't have bought a blower.

As it is, I'm limited as to how much boost I can run because when I started this project, I didn't plan on supercharging it, so I thought OEM pistons would be fine... and, they would have been if it had remained normally aspirated, but it didn't.

To make this thing really work, I need some good rods and forged pistons, but my budget is not going to allow that anytime soon, so I have to limit boost to 10 pounds, which isn't all that much flow, with pi** poor heads.

Live and learn. If it'll run 12-flat quarter miles I'll be happy. We'll see...
(That's probably fast enough for a 70-year-old man in a 4-door sedan.)

100_3266.jpg
 
This is a subject that can be bantered backwards and forward for years.
First thought is that there is little to compare. The modern technology of heads has outpaced most of the common mechanic's limited skills. We have seen MANY types of heads over the years and we still have to deal with reality. The corvette even had two ports per cyc. a few years back ( not sure what they have now ). What I'm pointing to is that now we have computers to make-up for shortcomings of head designs while allowing the heads to flow big numbers and big hp ratings. Most of us are still in the middle ages and use carb's that are far less forgiving. I give you that we can put the big numbers up with our engines but how many engines that we have are TOTALLY COMFORTABLE in a traffic jam going to work?
The modern cars have a HUGE advantage and makes the average rodder look sick in some areas.
I think someone will soon come up with a computer upgrade for the older cars to do much better in daily manners.
But I still would like to have a set of the W-2 heads and valve train. The W-2's have been around since the 70's but still serve as a benchmark. Wonder what they would have been like if they had been designed with swirl technologies built in? W-2’s were made because there was a demand for a better head for the round track boys that demanded an iron head for class requirements and for the drag boys that just wanted more, like the Pro-Stock boys. If I remember right it is the head Bob Glidden used on his 340.

Sorry, just think out loud.
 
Tarr,

Thanks for your comments!

This is not an argument... at least, the only thing I am "arguing" is that I think that if EQ can make the heads they're making right now (in cast iron), they could ALSO make a version with taller ports by just adding a 3/4" section to the middle of the existing head and increase the intake port height, and volume, by a lot.

The whole idea is to get more cfm port flow on the intake side without having to move the pushrods, which this would accomplish.

The W-2's are expensive to utilize because they DO move the pushrods over out of the way, but they require special offset rockers to accomplish this. It works great, but requires a lot of $$$$$$$ by the time you buy everything, including the longer valves (not necessary on the econo W-2's.) With the raised port EQ head, the valves and rockers would stay in the same place, laterally. Longer pushrods would be necessary, though. MYABRE longer valves, too.... not sure about that.

I keep saying that I am NOT "comparing" Mopar technology to the late LS-1/LQ-9 G.M. heads, and I am NOT.... But I mentioned them because they do flow 300cfm, and only have 2 valves per cylinder. If they can do it, I think a raised port Magnum head could, too.

That's my only "argument..." a "can do" attitude.

I hear what yoiu're saying about road manners/driveability, and that was one reason my car was not very quick witout a blower; 13.35-sec quarter-mile, through the mufflers on a 95 degree day at sea-level on drag radials.

But, it idled at 475 rpm... and had tons of low end torque due to the mild cam.... made 12 inches of vacuum at idle for the power brake booster.

Since then, I have added a Crosswind intake (Air-Gap style 180-degree), replaced the cast iron 340 exhaust manifolds with TTI step headers, and bolted on a 10-pound boost Vortech blower.

It should have the same street manners it always did (same cam), but if I am lucky, it will run around 12 flat, now... which will make me grin.

But, talk's cheap.... I need to do it and THEN talk about it. It's almost ready to make its maiden pass down the 1,000-foot strip at Centerville with forced induction. Ran 11.0's before in 1,000 feet. Hoping for a 10.0 time card, now.

That is, if the head gaskets hold....:angry7:

Bill, in Conway, Arkansas
 
Anything can be made to run hard. Given enough time and money. If it was a Chrysler world, and it's not, then Mopar would be head of the pack.
 
Consider this:

The only motor approved for Top Fuel and Fuel Funny Car in NHRA racing has Chrysler Hemi specs. No Chevys need apply (Ford is building a Chrysler Hemi "clone" for John Force's cars, currently.) Chrysler Hemis have dominated Top Fuel and Funny Car racing almost since it was invented.

Arias makes a Hemi head for a Chevy, but it hasn't ever been very successful, and it LOOKS just like a Mopar engine. They say that imitation is he most sincere form of flattery. 8)

Mopar OWNS Top Fuel and Fuel Funny Car... no question.

NHRA's Pro Stock Eliminator is not a Mopar stronghold although at most NHRA national events. there will be at least five Mopars in the top 16 qualifiers. Occasionally, they will win one. That could change overnight, as they are usually only a hundredth or two off the winning time, and qualify in the #1 position, frequently.

Super Stock: The quickest and fastest "legitimate" Super Stockers in existence are the factory-issued 1968 Hemi Barracudas and Darts that are SO fast that NHRA created a class just for them (SS/AH.) Nobody (not G.M. nor Ford) has ever built a car that can run anywhere close to them... They OWN Super Stock, when it comes to "fast." The only cars in S/S that are faster are the ex-Modified Eliminator cars that were put into S/S when Modified Eliminator was cancelled, and they run off pounds-per-cubic inch rules, not pounds-per-horsepower, so it's not a direct comparison.

Stock Eliminator: The Louisiana-based 1970 Hemi GTX of Ronnie West, and the East Coast's David Barton "NASCAR" (single 4bbl) Hemi Dodge are the quickest A/SA cars in the country.
The new classes ("AA/S" and "AA/SA") have yet to produce a dominating car, but John Shaul's Stage III Wedge '64 Savoy is usually the quickest car in the class, wherever he races (and, he races all over the place.)

Competition Eliminator: It's a crapshoot, with everything from weirdo 4-cylinder boat motors and turbocharged V6s ruling the roost from time-to-time, so, there's no particular "make" domination there...

In NHRA drag racing, it would seem to me, at least, that yes, it really IS a Chrysler world... even though Chevys make up something like 77-percent of the entries. The Mopars are just hard to beat...

Of course, NHRA drag racing is only a small part of the whole spectrum of the automotive world, (and again, this is only my opinion...) but, I don't think its significance can be overlooked.

My 2-cents...

Bill, in Conway, Arkansas

abodybannerRight.jpg
 
Here is a pic of a Mopar flowing head. 446cfm @700 int. 304cfm @700 ex

BooBOo004.jpg

BooBOo007.jpg


Roll pin marks!!
BooBOo003.jpg

BooBOo005.jpg
 
Bill Dedman said:
Of course, NHRA drag racing is only a small part of the whole spectrum of the automotive world, (and again, this is only my opinion...) but, I don't think its significance can be overlooked.

My 2-cents...
Click to expand...

Right, but in the modern realm of the "street legal" actual heads-up racing scene, such as Outlaw, Drag radial, NMCA, etc. Mopars are almost entirely absent.

Of course, most of that is small block, which brings us back to wanting better heads for our small blocks.
 
Whatever happened to the small block Hemi's that Mopar made way back in the 50's? Those would have been cool if Mopar would have kept making them. I think Mopar had the head thing going on way back with the Hemi and the polyspherical(semi Hemi) design. They just never kept running with it.
 
Machined,

Good point.

What I have read is that true Hemi heads, like the early 241 Dodge engine in '53 and the 331 Hemi Chrysler motor introduced in 1951 (hope that's right!) were excessively expensive to manufacture because of the double rocker shafts and the sheer size of the heads (necessary because of the valve layout and valvetrain.)

The Polysphere wasn't a bad idea, to have an almost hemispherical chamber with only one rocker arm shaft, but the heads were still wider than a true wedge, with all the valves in a row, and the Polys didn't apparently flow all that well.

All the early Hemi motors were also VERY heavy for their displacement, mainly I think, because of all that necessary iron in the heads.

They (the Hemis) were great drag racing engines, for sure, but Chrysler didn't see the necessity of staying with that cylinder head design in the face of all the practical considerations, or so it wouuld seem.
 
Big Dummy posted some really impressive numbers for a head I don't recognize.

The block looks like a Hemi block (top row of stud receiver bosses) and the shape of the ports look like 426 Hemi stuff, but the pistons don't have that HUGE Hemi dome.... Maybe they're low-compression blower pistons???

Fill me in, please. I'm lost....:angry7:

Bill
PS I'll bet dollars to donuts it won't bolt onto my poor ol' 360 Magnum, though... lol!
 
Have you looked at the Brodix heads at all?

They're not cheap, but they'll flow 300 CFM ported....
 
Bill Dedman said:
Big Dummy posted some really impressive numbers for a head I don't recognize.

The block looks like a Hemi block (top row of stud receiver bosses) and the shape of the ports look like 426 Hemi stuff, but the pistons don't have that HUGE Hemi dome.... Maybe they're low-compression blower pistons???

Fill me in, please. I'm lost....:angry7:

Bill
PS I'll bet dollars to donuts it won't bolt onto my poor ol' 360 Magnum, though... lol!
Click to expand...
Fred Brewer Heads

The compression is 14.3876 to 1 .001 out of the hole:-D

4.99 cid from a 400
 
Bill interested in your charger system. Been thinking about trying one in the sprintboat. Considering going with a 416 stroker. 9 to one compression. Want to go with a procharger an injection. How much boost do you run? I am worried about the lag because when I need throttle I need it now. How is the lag on your setup? Can you control it with the boost? How is the wear on the drive belt? Been watching a guy play with one over seas on a chev. Probably watch him try to work the bugs out of it this year. Try to learn as much as I can an get after it next year. If you have had any other major problems would be interested in hearing about them. Have never played with one before so sure it will be a work in progress. Cool toy anyways. They say if it isnt blown it sucks anyways.
 
daryl h said:
They say if it isnt blown it sucks anyways.
Click to expand...

Dunno about that; there are some REALLY fast cars out there, normally aspirated!!!

Send me an email at [email protected] and I'll send you some info and pictures that might help you in your quest.

Lag isn't a problem with belt driven systems; that's a turbocharger phenomenon.

Let me hear from you...

Bill
 
GM ls2 engines come standard with the cathedral port heads that I imagine flow good numbers for a stock head. They now have an ls3 6.2 motor in the 08 G-8 sedans that have a stock tall port head with 2.16 int and 1.59 exh valves, and they flow close to or over 300 cfm out of the box. These can be had for under $400. ea
 
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