Thinking outside the box

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Thanks for that informtion, dergrosse372. That just underlines my point that we Mopar L-A and Magnum guys and gals need an affordable, hi-flow cylinder head for sale in the aftermarket for our motors. I think it can be done by raising the roof of the intake poer on existing designs by adding longer valves, but I'm not an engineer, so I could be very wrong about that.

A taller head (to accommodate the taller intake ports) would require longer head bolts and longer pushrods, but all the other valve-train hardware should work with existing parts if the valves are not moved, laterally. That would help keep the cost down.

Probably not ever gonna happen, but, it's a nice dream... :)

Bill, in Conway, Arkansas
 
Steve,

Thos may indeed be the heads that the Booth/Arons team used to make their "hybrid", Frankenheads... I don't know.

But, what they did (and forgive me if I'm over-explaining this) was to take FOUR heads and make two out of them by horizontally slicing them in unequal sections so that when they put the two larger sections together, they had a head that was significantly taller than the originals. Two were cut 2/3rgs of the way down, and the other two, 2/3rds of the way up, if you can visualize that. Nobody else (no AMC teams, nor anyone else) had heads like these.

I'm ssure it took a monumental amount of work to get aeverythng welded back together, since I'm sure nothing matched, exactly. Probably leaked water like a seive, at first.

But, if they were originally CAST with those taller dimensions, that wouldn't be a problem. As I originally stated, NHRA didn't like the fact that they wone a LOT, and banned welded heads in Pro Stock when they got them worked out... in true NHRA fashion. I'm sure if it had been a Chevy, it would have been A-OK.

The problem, now, is finding a company that will gamble the R & D time and money on such an ambitious project for the L-A and Magnum engines.. Like I said; probably never happen... sigh.

Thanks for showing me those NASCAR "X" heads. I wasn't aware of them.

Bill
 
Bill Dedman said:
The problem, now, is finding a company that will gamble the R & D time and money on such an ambitious project for the L-A and Magnum engines...
Click to expand...

With the economy in shambles and people abandoning drag racing like crazy I don't see much happening for the development of the LA/Magnum small blocks.
The 5.7L HEMIs are everywhere now and can be had pretty cheap which do not help matters any.

The standard EQ heads are cheap because there is a large market for cheap replacement stock type Magnum heads. They are competing against the factory Magnum heads (for stock replacement purposes), and the Mopar Performance R/T heads for the mild performance audience.
They bolt directly onto every Dodge Ram with the Magnum V8 engines that are extremely prone to cracking and for less money then a factory replacement or even a lot of the factory remanufactured/rebuilt heads. I'd be willing to bet this is where most of their sales come from and will continue to come from as these engines age.
Producing a 300 cfm head will only market a very small audience which means the price will be higher due to not as much demand/sales volume. The audience would be the extreme performance crowd as most (even a lot of the performance crowd) doesn't need (or won't buy, even though they say they will) that radical of a head. Being cast iron makes this worse because if people are spending money on heads they want aluminum, which will up the price even more.

Even if EQ (or anyone other bargain based company) produces "your" head (even in cast iron to keep their production costs down) don't think for a minute they are going to sell them to you cheap. A 300cfm out of the box Mopar head will cost $1,500.00+. Add in the mandatory custom manifold (~$450.00+) and 99% of people would be better off buying ported aluminum Edelbrocks.
 
I know you're right, Daniel. You pointed out a lot of very true facts.... facts that I should have included in my original post. It's too bad they (EQ) can't use something like this as a "loss leader" as an image maker to build themselves a reputation in the high peformance marketing arena. As it stands, they're pretty obscure.

You can buy a set of 300+cfm aluminum Escalade, bone-stock, heads for an LQ-9 Chevy truck motor for $800.00, ready to bolt on.

You'd think that Mother Mopar would want to counter that with SOMETHING.

Paying more than double that for for some roughly equally-flowing (ported)aftermarket (Edelbrock) heads doesn't set right with me.... or, a lot of other people, I am sure.

I was just dreaming.... obviously. A waste of bandwidth, in the final analysis.

Thanks for a very useful, interesting and well-written post.

Bill, in Conway, Arkansas
 
Bill Dedman said:
You can buy a set of 300+cfm aluminum Escalade, bone-stock, heads for an LQ-9 Chevy truck motor for $800.00, ready to bolt on.

You'd think that Mother Mopar would want to counter that with SOMETHING.

Paying more than double that for for some roughly equally-flowing (ported)aftermarket (Edelbrock) heads doesn't set right with me.... or, a lot of other people, I am sure.
Click to expand...

Here is a link the the GM LQ9 245 HP & 380 lbs./ft. torque engine

Here is a link to the article that show & tells about the Escalade aluminum head

You're right it doesn't sit well with me either. These heads were easy for GM to produce because they already had the plans and tooling from the LS7 head. They are simply a modified for street/truck use LS7 head with changes made to fit the production line parts. Much like when Mopar modified the W2 race head to work on the small block (Magnum heads). The Magnum heads were a great leap forward in their time, but it was delveloped long ago and started in production in 1993. Unfortunetly for the Mopar camp the LS7 GM head is/was a new design with tons of technology and made of aluminum.
The HEMI is now Mopars small block. If Mopar counters it with anything it'll be for the HEMI engine series (5.7L, 6.1L, new 392 HEMI). The HEMI is a great engine stock and has the potential to be an awesome engine, however Chrysler has made it rediculously difficult for the aftermarket to help out. It hurts even more that Chrysler doesn't offer much for it and what it does offer are simple and usually poor upgrades that they charge "Viper" like prices for.
I do not think your "comparison" of the new LQ9 GM truck engine to the 5.9L is logical.

The LA & Magnum engine series have been out of production for a while now. Ma Mopar isn't going to gain anything by coming out with a new wonder head for these old engines. They have put a lot of money into producing & marketing the new HEMI engines. That was/is Mopars "new age" & performance engine. It has "high flow" aluminum heads already on it and they make good HP right out of the box (or truck...lol).

For $1,000-$1,600.00 you can find a clean complete HEMI engine (with your aluminum "high flow" heads already attached. Just get a carbureted intake manifold (~$500.00?) for it, a good tuned carb (~$600.00?), and some headers (~$400.00?) and you have a pretty power street engine.

It'd take some well laid out plans to get a stock 5.9L to that same power level. In my opinion you'd be a lot further ahead with the new HEMI engine too.
For the initial investment of puchasing/installing the above "stock" 5.7L HEMI you could build a powerful 5.9L.
But if something should fail internally in your engine it will be a whole lot easier/cheaper to go and source another used/stock 5.7L HEMI long block then to build another 5.9L long block to match the HEMIs power.
The HEMI engines are still in production so parts availability are becoming easier and cheaper to find with each passing day. The aftermarket is finally growing for these engines. As of late there is a pretty good boom because they are getting so reasonable to buy and run.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying everyone should toss their 360s and go buy a HEMI.
However there is no disputing that the HEMI is a superior engine over the dated 5.9L.

I am currently running two 5.9L engines and several 360 LA engines. The 5.9L in my 2001 Ram 1500 QC 2wd has Mopar Performance R/T heads (1.96" I / 1.625" E), Spectre Performance true cold air intake system, Dynomax Super Turbo 3" mandrel bent dual exhaust, NTK oxygen sensors, 180 degree Stant SuperStat, and a few other goodies with a few more to come. I like these engines alot and even race (at the strip for fun, few weekends a year) a 360 LA engine with a small B&M supercharger on it.
 
I guess my main confusion here is, are these new hi-tech gm heads a true bolt on for your typical 70's 350? If not, then the point is moot. I'm not a cylinder head expert, but I think the reson for the taller intake ports on the modern stuff, has to do with it being fuel injected.
That being said, I don't see anything wrong with wanting a better performing head that would be a true bolt on. I think the problem is, we don't always see all the proto type stuff. Who truley knows what is & has been designed behind closed doors. One thing for sure, its not going to done by Mother Mopar. This is going to be done by the aftermarket & individuls. Fifteen years ago, you could count on one hand the number of mfr's that produced heads for the small & bigblock Mopars. That has all changed now, lots of great speed parts now for Mopars.
Now as for comparing the 350 to the 360, I believe the 360 (using bolt ons) will outperform & out live the 350 by a long shot.
I'm a low buck guy who have been Drag & Street racing for 30 years, I have won many races with less perfomance componets than my fellow brand x'ers.
Now theres always going to be more suppliers for the gm stuff, this is very simple, VOLUME.
The thing that always got me was "ITS CHEAPER TO BUILD A CHEVY". Well lets see, aftermarket block, heads, crank, rods, pistons, I just don't buy that logic.
Let me get back on topic, the mans concern was the new gm heads, if you can't retro them to the early engine, I see know reason for comparison.
 
mikedevore said:
are these new hi-tech gm heads a true bolt on for your typical 70's 350?
Click to expand...

No they do not.
Even to retro fit them on the GM Gen III & IV engines they need new offset inlet rockers (~$100.00 for all) a special L76 intake manifold (~$450.00), and a special head gasket ($ is a wash on this one considering any new head replacement will need a new gasket).
 
I agree with everything you've said, but there is this to consider; There are already thousands of L-A and Magnum 360s in swapped-in "hot rods" such as my Valiant, Dusters, Darts, Demons, etc. The "3rd-generation Hemi" is new enough that the number of them running around in Dusters, etc. as street/strip cars is relatively small, right now.... but, of course, that will change as the junk yard supply for these motors continues to increase, over the next few years.

The odds are that most of the Hemis from junkyards are going to go into new projects; I can't see guys who have already invested in a cam, headers, heads and a good intake system/carb setup for their 360, yanking it all out and replacing it with a "new" Hemi just because they can. What do they do with the old motor? They could sell it, but a motor like that is not going to pay the seller anything like what he's put into it, usually.

It's people like that, (myself included) who already have a lot invested in a360 wedge motor that need these reasonably-priced 300cfm heads, and I think the market is there for them.

Like you, I attacked the problem with forced-induction, but as you have found out, probably, there are no simple solutions to making a 360 Magnum breathe (without spending a small fortune on W9 heads and all the attendant hardware.)

But, supercharging is not cheap, either, if done right (forged everything, a 6-bolt-per-cylinder block, and a mega fuel system, boost retard and a $500.00 water/alky injection system.)

Supercharging isn't for everyone...

So, we're back to the guy with the EXISTING "hot rodded" Duster who doesn't want the hassles of swapping in a 440, to replace his 390hp crate motor 360, or necessarily, to drag out that $5,000.00 wedge he's got his money invested in, to put a junkyard Hemi in, ALTHOUGH it really IS the wave of the future.

Better heads if relatively CHEAP ones can be found, would be his best option, but as you have pointed out MA ain't gonna be providing them.. That's why I thought EQ would be the better candidate, since they obviously have the engineering wherewithall to build cast iron heads at reasonable prices.

But, it will never happen... and you have done an excellent job of pointing out why it won't. Sometimes I need to be jolted back to reality... lol!

Thanks for the considerable insight.

Bill
 
I think if NASA could get a room full of Stock Eliminator engine builders, they could get an engine to fly to the moon with a prop! LOL
 
Mike Devore said, "I guess my main confusion here is, are these new hi-tech gm heads a true bolt on for your typical 70's 350? If not, then the point is moot."

Mike, I thought it was a valid comparison, because.... the 3rd generation Chevy small block has been out for many years now, and the trucks with a derivative of that engine (called the LQ9 motor, I think) are showing up in junk yards in profusion, because they're wearing out.... trucks get driven a lot of miles, quickly.... and, Chevys don't last very long... :) So, the junkyard supply for these motors is getting pretty good, now.

Having said that, let me say this: The engine in question (an LQ9) is a kissing cousin of the original 350 small block, has the same bore-center spacing, is all cast iron, and is generally of a similar design to the original small block 350s in that they are both cam-in-block, pushrod motors and have cylinder heads that are of the "true wedge" design, (like the Mopars) without the benefit of canted valves.

All of the above makes them very similar to a 360 Mopar motor, as far as basic engine design features go. They are 360-something cubic inches; virtually the same size, inside and out. as a 360 Dodge motor... Small blocks, if you will.

No, they aren't of the exact same design as an "original 350 Chevy," but, with the junkyard supply being what it is, they might as well be. In fact, they haven't made 350 Chevys for so long, they might be as "available" as the original SBC's are for the purposes of engine swaps, as the old-design 350s fade into the past. The aftermarket has embraced this "new small block" in a big way, with manifolds, cams, headers, etc., so I think you're going to be seeing a lot of them on the street, supplanting the old 327/350 motor, as time goes by.

So, I thought the $800 Escalade head deal was not a moot point at all, what with the availability of these new LQ9 motors increasing to the extent that they have.

Those engines ARE the "new small block GM motor." As such, I thought it was a valid comparison with the 360 Magnum, insofar as head design and availabilty was concerned.

Thanks for your comments. I learn something from everyone who posts here...

Bill, in Conway, Arkansas (your neighbor to the East) :)
 
Are you going to centerville this Saturday? I have some chevy buddys going & if the rain chances drop, I will be bringing my Dart Sport.
 
Yes, I am going to try to make it. I am not CERTAIN the Valiant will be there, but I'm going to try. I have never run it down the strip with the blower (just really got it operational recently) and I'm having some ignition problems with it, but I'll try to get those ironed out Friday and will be there, with or without that particular car. I may be in the wife's '97 Toyota Avalon.... it's polar white.

I have a friend (a racer, Bobby Roper.. see attached photo of his car) whose grand-daughter just got a new Jr. Dragster and they're going to have it there for some shakedown runs (Madeline Wilhite.) I'm close friends with that family and want to see her in the new car. It's going to be a lot faster than her old one. She won the points championship this last year at Centerville (2008), and got a jacket, etc., so she's excited about this new car; it's a lot faster than her old one. I think this new one has run mid-7's in the eighth for its previous owner.

Attached, also, is a picture of my ugly mug.... ugh! At least, youll know what to look for. Bobby may, or may not have his Camaro there; dunno... It's an NHRA A/SA 425hp 427... Brand X.... Has run a best of 10.19 @ 128.... Not too bad for a stovebolt... LOL!

God, I hate Chevys...

Maybe we'll hook up Sat. Hope so!

Bill

rooper-3.jpg


100_2667.jpg
 
MAN this is one heavy duty thread here i didn't read every post probably should but.....i like my mopars and i think dollar for dollar you can make a mopar run with a chevy and that's what i think
 
Bill you really started a storm here haha!

Good thread,read every post...

It is upsetting how well the stand GM LS series heads flow,
an luckily for them ( for now) we dont have a 360 off the shelf
head that flows as well an is affordable as theres.
 
nemesis said:
Bill you really started a storm here haha!

Good thread,read every post...

It is upsetting how well the stand GM LS series heads flow,
an luckily for them ( for now) we dont have a 360 off the shelf
head that flows as well an is affordable as theres.
Click to expand...

Do these heads accept 350 chevy rockers, valves, pushrods[stock 350 length], intakes,and springs?
The ports...are they in stock location? or raised?
LS7 don't work on a 4'' bore due to the giant 2.20 intake valves.
Oh wait the L92 use 2.16!!! intake valves

And looks like you'll need a new spring and retainer kit cause the L92 comes with wimpy stock lift springs.

huh offset intake push rod setup too...
 
I would rather have a set of RHS X-heads and do a lil, and I mean a lil work to them than have a chevy with these aluminum lQ9,L92 or whatever they are with there supposed interchangeability with old 350's.fwiw
 
1wild&crazyguy said:
I would rather have a set of RHS X-heads and do a lil, and I mean a lil work to them than have a chevy with these aluminum lQ9,L92 or whatever they are with their supposed interchangeability with old 350's.fwiw
Click to expand...
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I don't think there is ANY interchangability between the "old" small block Chevy parts and the newer LS/LQ series engines.

In fact, I'm sure of it. The old 350 had 5 head bolts per cylinder; the new one has 4, plus, the valve sequence in the head is totally different
(old: e-i-i-e-e-i-i-e; new e-i-e-i-e-i-e-i) so, even though they are both built on 4.4" bore centers, nothing fits.

There IS a company that has successfully grafted the new LS heads onto an old 350 SBC, but it took an act of Congress, and three men, and a boy, to get it done... and, who cares, anyway?
 
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