Time to decide on an ignition. Opinions please.

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By the way can you get an 8 pin HEI inside a Mopar ECU box?

Yep:D and there are four connections to make to the ECU (like four pins on the socket or five) hint: hint: :D


Yes, they can fit.
It just takes a little creativity with a heatsink surface and some soldering to the connector pins.

Sorry man, that 72 is kickin my *** the last few days and I'm sore and tired. :D
 
MSD ecurve. No box needed, and completely tunable by turning screws. Far superior to the mopar distributor. Best 300 I spent on the engine. BTW, I have used the stock with various boxes, the FBO system, and the GM HEI module.
 
MSD ecurve. No box needed, and completely tunable by turning screws. Far superior to the mopar distributor. Best 300 I spent on the engine. BTW, I have used the stock with various boxes, the FBO system, and the GM HEI module.

Uh huh, those ecurves are nice.
300 to. :D

That's a lot of money for us daily drivers when there are so many options for so much less and still totally capable of driving how we do.

I'd drop 3 on a distributor in a heartbeat if milliseconds mattered wherever I needed to go. :D
 
True, it is pricey. But super easy to tune, if you have modded the engine.
 
Where does "OEM system" = economical come from? I see OEM setups w/ new parts for ~$200 on Summit and elsewhere. I bought the Chinese ready-to-run HEI distributor for $45, plus $20 for an e-core coil. It is much simpler hookup and stronger spark (no ballast). But, it doesn't use the standard GM 4-pin module. I may put a GM 8-pin in its place to get the sealed connectors and computer spark control.

Many use MSD, and it offers many options like rev limiters, but is in another cost sphere and is much more work to install. I wouldn't fault MSD for all the failures. There were many counterfeit knock-offs sold that were almost empty boxes w/ a single little transistor inside. All have the same SN. So if you find a cheap MSD box, be suspicious.
 
Bill,
Pentronix sells a adjustable rev-limiter 4 pin hei module for $70, they work great, I have two of them one in my duster and the other is in my vette.
 
Bill,
Pentronix sells a adjustable rev-limiter 4 pin hei module for $70, they work great, I have two of them one in my duster and the other is in my vette.

Yea, but not an 8 pin yet, punks. :D
I want one with the weatherpack connectors and timing control capable, but NOOOOO
 
Yea, but not an 8 pin yet, punks. :D
I want one with the weatherpack connectors and timing control capable, but NOOOOO


Patience grasshopper,
When they announced they were building a 4-pin one I bought and paid for it, 8 months later it came in the mail one day.
They did keep me updated every couple of months that they were having production issues and kept asking me if I wanted a refund, good company to deal with.
So I probably have one out of the first production run.
Just a 4-pin but with rev control for the money it is hard to beat the price.
 
Patience grasshopper,
When they announced they were building a 4-pin one I bought and paid for it, 8 months later it came in the mail one day.
They did keep me updated every couple of months that they were having production issues and kept asking me if I wanted a refund, good company to deal with.
So I probably have one out of the first production run.
Just a 4-pin but with rev control for the money it is hard to beat the price.

I have a brand new in box 2 stage limiter that I can't even begin to think about just because there might be an 8 someday. :D
 
8-pin would be sweet, patience..........
 
Remain aware of the Rule of One: There is no such thing as just one change. This applies especially to electrics, which are liable to The Curse of Alessando Volta.

Keep it simple, keep it stock, keep it reliable. If you can't figure out why the alternator is not charging, why do you think you can string up electrical magic? Sometimes a man just has to recognize his limitations. That's better than going dark a lot - and that will never happen close to home.
 
Remain aware of the Rule of One: There is no such thing as just one change. This applies especially to electrics, which are liable to The Curse of Alessando Volta.

Keep it simple, keep it stock, keep it reliable. If you can't figure out why the alternator is not charging, why do you think you can string up electrical magic? Sometimes a man just has to recognize his limitations. That's better than going dark a lot - and that will never happen close to home.

That's not in the right order for me.

I like keep it simple keep it reliable and then we'll see how keeping it stock fits after the first two are met.
 
For now I will just run the stock type system and think about which way I really want to go. So could someone point me to the right wiring for what I've got. The car has single point dizzy and a 2 pin box with a 2 pin ballast, that's what it is wired for and has not been cut up. I would like to use the Mopar electronic dizzy that came with the 360 I installed. I did search but can't find anything with the 2 pin ignition box ??? I did download the FSM but it is for a 72 Scamp. Mine is a 71 built in Canada if that makes any difference. Thanks.
 
Where does "OEM system" = economical come from? I see OEM setups w/ new parts for ~$200 on Summit and elsewhere. I bought the Chinese ready-to-run HEI distributor for $45, plus $20 for an e-core coil. It is much simpler hookup and stronger spark (no ballast). But, it doesn't use the standard GM 4-pin module. I may put a GM 8-pin in its place to get the sealed connectors and computer spark control.

Your suggestion looks great and i'm sure like an MSD system would be superior.
Rock Auto offers all the oem pieces necessary for less than $100 tot.including wires
I think they had 'warehouse closeout' 7mm wires available for $7.98 a while back
.that would be economical to someone on a budget.
.Just offering a practical alternative.
 
If you go stock better carry an extra box,modual ,ballist,coil ect. in the trunk cause' eventually your going to need them..and they have no where near the spark output of an MSD..
 
Just going stock for a few months till I decide on the fuel injection and what ignition. So anybody have an answer for this? Last question above.
 
With measuring instruments you can see a visual representation of the better ignition you're getting. Read the links off that first one to understand why better ignition is better.

You're free to hold that opinion; I've provided data showing the shortcomings of the stock system.

Dan you have a point, it is inferior in some ways. But ir3333 is also correct that it is perfectly adequate for some applications. That's where Tom Condran's point ought to be given serious consideration.

The real goal here is to light off the fuel-air mix for the particular situation. Bigger and stronger is not always helpful. Well chosen and placed tinder, kindling and firewood can be lit equally well with a match or a butane lighter. In a situation where the tinder is inadequate, or there are wind or dampness issues, the longer lasting, more intense flame of a lighter be can help initiate the burn. But why stop there? Lets really light this thing off with a torch! :twisted: Great idea except the tinder will be burned up and blown all over before it lights the kindling. :(

So it is with ignitions. A points system is like the match - when everything is working, it does the job just as good. I believe a OEM type HEI system (such as Dan links too) instead of a Chrysler OEM electronic is akin to using a better lighter. In some situations, it may provide an edge in reducing misfires or getting better initiations. That depends on the A/F mixture, mixture distribution, compression, etc. However, these change with rpm and load, so one size does not fit all.

A racing engine, or somewhat racy (hot rod) engine, have different combustion requirements than a stock engine. Idle mix is usually poorly distributed (compared to stock) due to less manifold vacuum. It needs to operate at higher rpm than stock, at least to 5500 rpm. A lot of ignition systems made for normal use start to have problems as the rpms climb and the combustion environment around the spark plug changes. That's where dual points, special coils, capacitive discharge, and other tricks can be helpful. However they often come with disadvantages too. Dual points are a PIA, coils wound for higher rpm output are weaker at lower rpm and so forth.

All electronic systems suffer from slew rate which effects timing. As mentioned in another thread, this is one reason why a car with a well set up points system can often beat the same car with an electronic system in a race. For street use, its close to a non-issue, but start climbing above 3500 rpm and its valuable Hp lost if not addressed. This can be done internally by better design and faster electronics and/or compensated internally (as Pertronix claims for their Ignitor II or III) or externally in the distributor curve (as mopar performance used to do).

As far as the OP's original question about which distributor - For a close to stock engine, any distributor will work with an MSD 6 series box, including his existing points dizzy. The points will see little wear, although the load on the rubbing block will remain a service item to keep in mind. A used magnetic pickup distributor will also work fine. But at least as important as the ignition system type is the distributor curve! IMO This is where time and effort should be spent tuning no matter what the ignition system, because this is where Hp and mpg can really be gained or lost.
 
For now I will just run the stock type system and think about which way I really want to go. So could someone point me to the right wiring for what I've got. The car has single point dizzy and a 2 pin box with a 2 pin ballast, that's what it is wired for and has not been cut up. I would like to use the Mopar electronic dizzy that came with the 360 I installed. I did search but can't find anything with the 2 pin ignition box ??? I did download the FSM but it is for a 72 Scamp. Mine is a 71 built in Canada if that makes any difference. Thanks.

Just going stock for a few months till I decide on the fuel injection and what ignition. So anybody have an answer for this? Last question above.

Phill - Are we missing something?
Stock points system used no box. Electricity flows through the points, and when they open the coil discharges into the distributor cap and to the spark plug. The box is a signal amplifier for the magnetic pickup, lets the coil charge and then electronicly opens so the coil discharges.

If you have a Mopar electronic distributor and want to use it, you will have to change your cars wiring to some degree. Using a Chrysler type amp, there are Direct Connection wiring diagrams (reprinted in the Mopar Performance 'Engine Book' ). Two wires from the 4/5 pin connector go to the 2 pin connector on the dizzy. The others to the ignition wiring connections at ballast and coil.

Ground
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ECU Box
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Connector Wires:
1. Blue/Yellow attach to Igntion Switch ON side of ballast resistor
2-3. Attach to distributor pickup connector
4. Green/Red on dual ballast, attach to opposite side of ballast resistor on 5 ohm pair of a 5 ohm/.5ohm resistor
5. Black/yellow to negative side of coil.
 
One problem with all that (that I mostly completely agree with) is that if we light the kindling with a blow torch in and engine the flame stays in the cylinder and doesn't blow away. :D

On a cold day after the engine has not run for awhile and the "wood is wet" I don't want to sit there shivering while the lighter eventually gets it going.
I want that blowtorch to light it.
 
Phill - Are we missing something?
Stock points system used no box. Electricity flows through the points, and when they open the coil discharges into the distributor cap and to the spark plug. The box is a signal amplifier for the magnetic pickup, lets the coil charge and then electronicly opens so the coil discharges.

If you have a Mopar electronic distributor and want to use it, you will have to change your cars wiring to some degree. Using a Chrysler type amp, there are Direct Connection wiring diagrams (reprinted in the Mopar Performance 'Engine Book' ). Two wires from the 4/5 pin connector go to the 2 pin connector on the dizzy. The others to the ignition wiring connections at ballast and coil.

I think maybe he's getting the VR mixed up as part of the ignition system.
 
I ran a stock electronic distributor and an old Mallory CD hi-fire 5, worked great and the Mallory was cheap used, like $25 at a swap meet. They can even fire off a points which would last forever as there is no coil kick-back to the points that would wear them. The thing with a distributor is that its still subject to the timing chain flutter that every Mopar has that doesnt run a tensioner. Its just a sloppy system that was 'good enough' for all V8's back in the day. Crank trigger is the best, ie EDIS but you have no control over the advance unless you control it with a compatible ECU, ie credit card sized programmable Mega-jolt.
 
Ground
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ECU Box
|
Connector Wires:
1. Blue/Yellow attach to Igntion Switch ON side of ballast resistor
2-3. Attach to distributor pickup connector
4. Green/Red on dual ballast, attach to opposite side of ballast resistor on 5 ohm pair of a 5 ohm/.5ohm resistor
5. Black/yellow to negative side of coil.

Sorry man, confusing. Just find the darn diagram and post it. I don't entirely disagree with the point you are trying to make.

1....Colors change depending on the harness

2...No current, "new" Mopar or Mopar "like" replacement box uses a dual ballast resistor

Frankly, as far as "changing wiring" Pertronix might be the easiest to install with less invasive. The one thing I don't care about Pertronix is that you really need to buy TWO of them so you have spare parts. They do however seem to be reliable.

But you CAN make something like a home-made EFI nearly non-invasive. There exists.......and you could do this yourself.......an HEI heat sink which bolts to the bottom of a Mopar breakerless dist. (They are not a dizzy)

http://www.designed2drive.com/

Dist_Bottom.JPG


Dist_Side_Wires.JPG



So here is how "invasive" this would be once you get it mounted to the distributor

1...Pull out breaker points distributor and install the breakerless unit

2...Connect the HEI + wire to the coil + while leaving the old coil power wire attached, as well as the radio suppression cap

3...Connect the HEI coil - wire to the coil, leaving the tach wire if present also attached

4...Go up to your factory ballast and make a small jumper wire with male quick connects, and jumper across the ballast.
 
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