To advance or Not

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RAT ROD AL said:
Yes my crank gear has 3 keyways. A - 0 - R. So If I put it on the "A" on the key on the crank , then just line the Other "A" to the Cam gear ? and that's 4* Advance
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Maybe, maybe not. It depends on whether or not "everything" is machined to the same tolerances. That's the whole purpose of degreeing a camshaft. To overcome machining differences in timing sets and camshafts. When you are discussing timing in degrees, there's room for error, especially when mixing and matching different brands and a lot of times with the same brand. Unless you degree it, you have literally NO idea "where" the camshaft is installed in the engine.
 
Lemmee see if I got this right;
You demand accuracy, but tell the newbe it's ok to put the plunger of the dial indicator into the pushrod cup.IDK. That's a bad idea. Even the bottom of the lifter is NOT flat.
They make a proper tool for that job and it's pretty cheap.
If the heads are on, the job just got harder
I'm a newbe at degreeing too, having done it less than a dozen times. But I figured out real quick that the pushrod cup was not the thing to use. So I had a tool machined for me. Now they make the tool.
 
Harbor Freight has some affordable options on indicators and mounts, and a degree wheel is cheap. And this stuff will last forever. Easy to learn how to setup and use, unless one is feeling lazy which is the only reason not to do it. Spend how much on performance parts and the time to assemble an engine...but degree the cam? Meh? Come on!!!
 
brian6pac said:
Al, $20 and you are set

Summit Racing® Cam Degree Wheels SUM-G1057-16
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Won't work on a magnum engine! All the bushings to center it on the crank are to small for the bolt!! I bought one last week and tried to use it. I did make it work like everything I own use or buy it took tweaking!! It was my first cam degree and now I see how easy it is to do you shouldn't skip it.imo. My lunati cam and Hughes timing set were right on. I would suggest a positive piston stop! There's prolly 10 degrees of piston dwell ATDC and maybe 5 degrees on the cam lobes centerline. A lot of guessing if you don't do it correct.
 
Have you done it??? It's about getting repeatable results.

You are a riot... Carry on with more literature please/


AJ/FormS said:
Lemmee see if I got this right;
You demand accuracy, but tell the newbe it's ok to put the plunger of the dial indicator into the pushrod cup.IDK. That's a bad idea. Even the bottom of the lifter is NOT flat.
They make a proper tool for that job and it's pretty cheap.
If the heads are on, the job just got harder
I'm a newbe at degreeing too, having done it less than a dozen times. But I figured out real quick that the pushrod cup was not the thing to use. So I had a tool machined for me. Now they make the tool.
Click to expand...
 
RAT ROD AL said:
I was reading and it says if it's a hyd cam I would need to get a solid lifter and an adjustable push rod to degree it also ?????
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lots of info out there,too much!! That's what I thought till I posted the question a week or two ago. I got a lot of suggestions and worked out great! I'll say this and people can raise he'll about it but I just used a factory hydraulic roller lifter. Pain getting the dial indicator set up at the right angle but after all was good. The dial indicator doesn't even come close to putting pressure on the lifter ( cup??)
 
I believe the reason for the solid lifter instead of hydraulic is so when you are rotating/degreeing, there is no "give" with the solid lifter. There is "give" or preload with a hyd lifter.
Somebody correct me if I'm wong.
RAT ROD AL said:
I was reading and it says if it's a hyd cam I would need to get a solid lifter and an adjustable push rod to degree it also ?????
Click to expand...
 
4spdragtop said:
I believe the reason for the solid lifter instead of hydraulic is so when you are rotating/degreeing, there is no "give" with the solid lifter. There is "give" or preload with a hyd lifter.
Somebody correct me if I'm wong.
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@4spdragtop

The plunger will not be affected by any tension applied by a dial indicator. If you are doing the reading at the rocker arm, with actual spring pressure, yes, the hyd plunger will collapse. Use a solid lifter/shim the hyd or a checking spring instead in that case.

This isn't building rocket parts at .00001 levels of accuracy. We got that high tech coat hanger pointer in front of a wheel with numbers. Highly accurate to the hair on a gnats ***. LOL Move your head 2 inches left or right and the reading is different! When you do this, watch how little the crank needs to move for a .001 change in lift coming up from .040 to .050. It's about getting it in a reasonable position. If the cam I have should be in at 104 and the number work out to 103 or 104.5, I'm not wasting time to get it spot on unless I have the materials/parts to do so. Sometimes the chain has a better keyway to use. If not and you move it, now it's further away from the target, that's wasted effort. Use what you have and make a judgement. If I was building an engine for someone else and they said it had to be on this number, then they get to pay for the extra time/materials to do so if it was off and parts needed additional massaging. 1/2-1 degree either way isn't going to make or break anything most of us do in here.

I'm the same person that's been told putting a 108 LSA cam in at 100-102 is stupid... except when that's the part you have to deal with and need it to run! Then proceed to have it run the life out a similar build that was installed where the cam manufaturer suggested it should be. 60' was .07-.1 better and not a .1 MPH different in the traps. Same with ignition timing, pick your approach and go... some methods work better than others.
 
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RAT ROD AL said:
Ya , exactly every one explains it different. And then talk of cam card ? WTF is that and where ?
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If you stick with the intake center line method, you'll not go wrong. I have the Comp degree kit. It's nice. Has everything all in one convenient case. Instruction video included.
 
Check with Comp, a lot of their cams are ground with 4 degrees advance so straight up would be ok IMO, in Comp Cams install instructions it actually says its ok not to degree the cam but it is highly recommended, they also state to use the intake centerline method, but as others have stated it should be done to know where it is, how much difference you will see has to many variables to say for sure IMO but if you don't degree and aren't getting the performance you expected you will always wonder if it is an issue.
 
All this and when you degree the cam an find out it needs to move 2 degrees + or -
Then what? when the chain is 0 -4 + 4 and you can't get the 2 degrees anyway? Compromise?
 
I'll give you the experience I had. I've only installed one cam but I did degree it. It was a very small MP Purple shaft that I lot of guys would say not to worry about degreeing. Something in the machining was off so far that I thought for a while that I was doing something wrong. Found that the key-ways in the double roller timing set were not 4 degrees apart as advertised. I ended up using the closest of the 3 key-ways and had to make an offset key for the timing gear. If I had installed dot to dot, the cam would have been retarded 6 degrees. I decided then, any cam I ever install will be checked although I will have to study up to be able to do it again.
 
billsdartgt said:
Check with Comp, a lot of their cams are ground with 4 degrees advance so straight up would be ok IMO, in Comp Cams install instructions it actually says its ok not to degree the cam but it is highly recommended, they also state to use the intake centerline method, but as others have stated it should be done to know where it is, how much difference you will see has to many variables to say for sure IMO but if you don't degree and aren't getting the performance you expected you will always wonder if it is an issue.
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This is only true of you trust there is zero tolerance stack up.

If Comp (or any cam grinder) puts 4 degrees advance on the cam (or maybe they put it 2 ahead or 6...the number doesn't matter) there is a very good possibility the cam lobe is where it should be.

But, the key way may be off on the cam gear. Or the crank gear. Or the crank itself.

And it happens. A lot. And even the cam grinder can miss.

I almost never use a cam off the shelf. When I order a cam I tell them NOT to add any advance to the cam. I put it where I want it, and don't need that added to it.

But that's just me.
 
66jim said:
All this and when you degree the cam an find out it needs to move 2 degrees + or -
Then what? when the chain is 0 -4 + 4 and you can't get the 2 degrees anyway? Compromise?
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That's why I now always use a set with nine keyways in the crank gear.
 
Use a offset cam woodruff key for fine tuning - mr gasket . If cam is advanced more low end, retarded more top end. Remember the stupid big ford 1972+ timing sets stamped 10 degrees retarded for emissions?
 
Marcohotrod said:
Use a offset cam woodruff key for fine tuning - mr gasket . If cam is advanced more low end, retarded more top end. Remember the stupid big ford 1972+ timing sets stamped 10 degrees retarded for emissions?
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Yes, Ford did that through about three decades. The 351M and 400 were about the worst. Especially the 400. When they gave it that 4" stroke, they suddenly found out what a detonation monster they made. They tried everything they could, lowering compression several times, retarding camshaft timing more than once to discover all they had to do was put a quench style head on it like the 4V 351 Cleveland and they'd have solved it.
 
Absolutely my experience with the 400 M RRR
Pistons and Head
but look how it did in the Enginemasters build
We tried to build some for propane PITA
ended up using 460s
BTW mopar truck and industrial also used that retarded timing
and our Chrysler autos went through the compression drop stupidity
no vac advance until speed or gear
the 73 400 in the spedo cable rpm switch- A great Find
performance cams used for emissions
70's was a big downhill slide
Made a lot of money rebuilding transit bus motors
That's where the KB piston came from
 
I had a 73 Torino with a 400 and that was the one with the cracked block, I drove it for 3 years and tried to kill it and couldn't. I cranked up the timing and drove it back and forth to Florida and got 21MPG, I couldn't believe it got that kind of mileage.
 
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