To Stroke, or not to Stroke

[Vic Storm]

I am figuring out that the big big difference is in the amount of rotating wieght and thats using 440 parts, it's alot more drastic with the aftermarket kits. I think because of deck hieght being lower, you able to run alot lighter smaller piston (1930 grs.lighter ea) plus a more stiffer block because everything (including valve train)is shorter tougher built for big torgue and able to withstand alot of HP increase. Rotating assembly when completed is just short of 8 pounds lighter than either the 400 or the 440. The standard bore is bigger stock than the 440 so you are already starting out with more displacement when stroking and you can get bigger pistons in there without having to over bore so they run cooler and last longer under big hp. So you end up with an engine that has more displacement than a 440, revs faster with more torgue and runs twice as long. Just some observations I have gathered thanks to FABO.

 

[Petzschler]

I know im treadin on some opinions about stroker motors, but why stroke a bb when theres ton of power/torque in a good old 440? and clearance concerning fenderwell headers fit and have less clearance problems on 440 blk vs 400 blk been there done it and like my 440 with fenderwells and as far as perf goes and money and bang 4 the bucks I will stay with 440 though Ive had some 340s that were awesome performers... talking about economics 10-11's is not hard in a-body rb mopar with of the shelf parts---non stroker,no bottle etc. MAY BE OLD SCHOOL BUT IT STILL KICKS BUT.....just my 10 cents worth

cause stroking your...well... engine is the "in thing" to do now. problem is, with big blocks you run outta cylinder
head really fast and have to step up to high-price exotic pieces. stroked small blocks can get away with less cylinder head.
BUT i do agree with you that if you can't run 10's or 11's with a 400/440 in a A-Body.. your doin something wrong.
"360 rebuild with stock crank, rods and windage tray. Factory iron 360 heads from a 1979 motor opened to 2.02" intake valves with a competition valve job. Bowls lightly blended and runners lightly cleaned up. TRW flat top cast pistons rated at 10. to 1 compression. Comp Cams Magnum hydralic 280 cam. This cam has a .480" lift and 280 degrees advertised duration. Intake is an Edelbrock Torker II. Topped with a Carter TQ with .137 rear jets."
that'll get you 11's all day long. nothin wrong with old school.. works lika charm!
* To the OP, 512's DO NOT make a very reliable STREET engine.

 

[Dustpan]

The trick to the 440 Source 512 kit is the big block chevy journals. With the smaller chevy journals clearancing is generally not needed and it also uses a lower piston pin configuration so it doesn't require special rings.

 

[moper]

Chlgr, it's your choice. You seem to have the rest of the parts, so swapping in a bigger engine is not a big deal. If that's what you want, byt all means build it. But, if everyone could build a high powered 512 for $4K they would. Simply put, they can't. The cam choice is way wrong for a big inch engine. And no $1500 set of heads will make power on one that large. Having built more than one or two of both, the RB based package will cost roughly 20% more than a small block package and produce about 15% more power built similarly. Definately build what you want. Just be smart and realistic about it. The big engines are perfectly reliable when built and matched properly. More streetable than most too. 590hp/600tq that idles at 800rpm. But driving them can be an adventure. The 505 with reasonable sized rear radials is almost undriveable over 1/2 throttle in anything less than 4th gear w/3.54s in an E body. For me, I enjoy the small block packages more, and unless I planned to go with a longer stroke than 4", I'd build a small block. It's not cubic inches. It's the stroke. Plus it fits so much easier.

 

[chlngr1970]

Here is my thought process.

If you have a 383 magnum, you have X HP and Y torque. If you up the CID and built it in a similar fashion, you should have a percentage better of both. Sort of the same concept of 383 magnum to 440 magnum. The 440 magnum is always going to make better HP/TQ than the 383 Magnum in stock trim, so why not when both are treated equal? If I had a 383 Magnum in my Duster, and dropped in a stock 440 magnum, wouldn't I benefit from the added HP/TQ, or would the added weight cancel it out? What would need to be done to the 440 to overcome the weight disadvantage?

My question is, does a big inch motor have to have a super aggressive cam to run? I knew a guy back in Texas that had a 67 Barracuda Formula S with a 536 CID motor that sounded like it had a little more than a stock big block. I'm sure he had more than $4K in his motor as it had Stage V Hemi heads and two radiators, but it was very streetable. Why can't my 512 be?

j

 

[rmchrgr]

If you had a big ol' Caddy in the late '60s or early '70s, there's a good chance it may have had a 500 c.i. engine in it which would have produced around 400 hp and 500+lbs. ft. of torque in stock form.

Just something to chew on. 8)

 

[Petzschler]

Here is my thought process....

.... Why can't my 512 be?

j

becouse IMO with the super short skirts thats used in the 512, theres roughly 1/2 the support in
the bore as compared to a relativly stock setup. which cause the piston to load the trust side of the
bore like nobodies buisness. also I believe that the p/pins are into the oil rings, reducing oil control
of those rings. not saying its a bad motor, becouse its not. Its just not a reliable street engine. way
better off going with the 400/470 for the long term street use.

 

[chlngr1970]

Chlgr, it's your choice. You seem to have the rest of the parts, so swapping in a bigger engine is not a big deal. If that's what you want, byt all means build it. But, if everyone could build a high powered 512 for $4K they would. Simply put, they can't.

Do you think I am expecting too much from a combination like I had above? What can I expect?

The cam choice is way wrong for a big inch engine.

I haven't heard back from Comp Cams yet, so what cam do you think I should have in a 512 with 9.7:1 comp, and either a single big 4bbl, or 3 2's?

And no $1500 set of heads will make power on one that large.

is it because they don't flow well enough? Will a set of street heads on a big inch engine choke it off?

Having built more than one or two of both, the RB based package will cost roughly 20% more than a small block package and produce about 15% more power built similarly. Definately build what you want. Just be smart and realistic about it.

This is why I wanted to go with a larger engine. See above.

The big engines are perfectly reliable when built and matched properly. More streetable than most too. 590hp/600tq that idles at 800rpm.

What do I need to do to reach this goal?

But driving them can be an adventure. The 505 with reasonable sized rear radials is almost undriveable over 1/2 throttle in anything less than 4th gear w/3.54s in an E body.

What made it hard to drive? Was it RPM? Was it lack of traction?

For me, I enjoy the small block packages more, and unless I planned to go with a longer stroke than 4", I'd build a small block. It's not cubic inches. It's the stroke. Plus it fits so much easier.

Well, the 512 has a 4.250 stroke, so I guess that qualifies ;) I have always liked and wanted a Big Block Duster. I am also considering putting a big block in the Demon I just got. Not sure about that yet. but who knows what the future holds.

j

 

[chlngr1970]

becouse IMO with the super short skirts thats used in the 512, theres roughly 1/2 the support in
the bore as compared to a relativly stock setup. which cause the piston to load the trust side of the
bore like nobodies buisness. also I believe that the p/pins are into the oil rings, reducing oil control
of those rings. not saying its a bad motor, becouse its not. Its just not a reliable street engine. way
better off going with the 400/470 for the long term street use.

The trick to the 440 Source 512 kit is the big block chevy journals. With the smaller chevy journals clearancing is generally not needed and it also uses a lower piston pin configuration so it doesn't require special rings.

Is this what you are referring to?

j

 

[Petzschler]

440/512 Stroker Kit: (4.250" stroke / 7.100" Rod) uses the hemi length rod and a 1.48" CH pistons that about 1/2" shorter then a stock 440 piston.
this one is based on the MoPar journals and is slightly better then the below stroker kit.
400/512 Stroker Kit: (4.250" stroke / 6.535" Rod) uses the BBC length rod and a 1.32" CH pistons thats just over 1/2" shorter then a stock 440 piston.
but like others said, its ultimatly up too you.

 

[Longgone]

chlgnr70, why not give Brandon at 440source a call and discuss with him what your plans are? He can give you expert advice on what combos work the best for each purpose.

 

[moper]

The 505/512 kit is the best choice for a street RB. The pistons are tall enough to stay stable for 20-30K miles, and for most of us that means 8-10 years of summer use. The B version of this kit uses the ultra short pistons, and I agree it's not worth doing for a street application. The 440 you have is an RB, the 400 is a B. The reason the prices go up is the parts that are needed to support that big stroke. You can build a 500" engine and run a tiny cam an heads, but you spent a bit of money making an industrial engine, because a car needs power over a wider range. By undrivable I mean you have to be very careful on the throttle, and if it's wet out, park it. It's cool to drive, but they can be a handful if you're the type to play on the street. I've grown to appreciate a good balance of power and drivability. It's rough having a Honda pull away from you on the on ramp because you cant give it throttle in a turn without the car kicking out. The heads are simply too small even in medium ported form to support this engine over 4K rpm. I use RPMs for ease and cost for most of my stuff. but even they are just enough. More stroke means it wants more air. More coming in means more going out. So big carbs, big headers, and tall intakes are the norm, and those engines behave like a smaller milder plant. The camshafts also need to be larger, but they dont behave like larger cams. I run 250° @ .050 as a mild one. That 590hp one is 268°@.050 and 280°@.050 with lifts around .600. It idles at 850rpm and can run pump 89 at 10.8:1. And it fits the factory shaker on this car. I try to convice B engine guys to stay at 3.915 stroke max. That keeps a good amount of power and a tall enough piston to last a while. It also runs well with the RPM heads in mild form. The RB, go 4.25 stroke, but I'd run SR-EZs and the Indy dual plane with at least 950cfm Holley HP as a base intake, the Victor Edelbrock as a good 2nd. None of which will fit under an A body hood...lol. Again, my opinions and we all got 'em. Call Brandon and talk to him. I use a minimum if 1.480" compression height on a piston. Less than that, and it's not going to last and I can't build in tight quench.

 

[chlngr1970]

That is a lot of good information. I will be giving, Brandon (?) a call either Friday, or later on. My schedule is wonky. This is my 4 day weekend, but I am headed out of town for the weekend for a nice getaway that both me and my GF need.

So I understand, a streetable Big inch 440 stroker is easier to build than a streetable 400 Big inch stroker? I think I understand why, and see your point. How much more difficult is the 440 to put in an A-Body with no power brakes/steering, using a dual snorkel hood scoop, will all that induction fit under the hood then? Since I have a 440, it is easier for me to go that route than to try and find one to build out.

OTOH, what can I expect from a streetable built 451? Lets forget for a moment the quarter mile times I want. What would I need to get in order to build a reliable street 451. You know, assume I have a vacuum need, like power brakes, and a vacuum secondary carb. Good manifold vacuum, 800 RPM Idle, light converter...what would I need to achieve that goal, and what kind of performance would I get out of it? Would I be able to build a streetable 400 and achieve 11 second times? This takes me back to the OP...

Will I be able to build a streetable 400 and achieve 11 second time slips?

j

 

[Petzschler]

k, first off 400-500-600hp 340/360/383/400/440/451/470/500/512/ or 528cid engines are NO garrenty for a 11sec timeslip.
you need to build your car AROUND what engine you decide to go with. that means front/rear suspension, weight transfer etc.
yes, a 440 stroker is EASIER to build then a 400 stroker, but the cost is still the same. the bigger the engine, the more
easily it can handle larger cams. the 451 engine is a a nice engine, light recipocating mass, etc. the the B-deck
is easier to install in a A-body. As far as what to expect from the 451.. it responds to upgrades like any other
engine. But as said by Myself, and others, IF you decide to go with big cubes.. be prepared to spend BIG $$$.
Also if you don't (especially in the cylinder head area), don't be surprised if your 512 gets smoked by a 340 with W5 heads.

 

[chlngr1970]

k, first off 400-500-600hp 340/360/383/400/440/451/470/500/512/ or 528cid engines are NO garrenty for a 11sec timeslip.
you need to build your car AROUND what engine you decide to go with. that means front/rear suspension, weight transfer etc.
yes, a 440 stroker is EASIER to build then a 400 stroker, but the cost is still the same. the bigger the engine, the more
easily it can handle larger cams. the 451 engine is a a nice engine, light recipocating mass, etc. the the B-deck
is easier to install in a A-body. As far as what to expect from the 451.. it responds to upgrades like any other
engine. But as said by Myself, and others, IF you decide to go with big cubes.. be prepared to spend BIG $$$.
Also if you don't (especially in the cylinder head area), don't be surprised if your 512 gets smoked by a 340 with W5 heads.

Yeah, I understand that it is a combination. Much like building a good home theater. You have to chose components that compliment each other.

So, to wit...

The body will be essentially stock steel with a glass hood, and maybe fenders...dunno yet. I will have weld in sub frame connectors. I am considering a 10-12 point roll cage ( just because it is cool ;) ) rear springs relocated to the inside of the frame rails. I am looking at a Dana rear with either a 3.54 or 3.91 gear set ( not open ) and a good set of shocks. I was told to stay away from MP springs as they are crap lately, but was given a lead on good springs and torsion bars. Front brakes are currently late A-Body disc up front with 10" drum in the rear. I was planning on either 11" drum for the rear, or disc as well. Trans will be a 727 ( looking at the Mancini Racing trans, or open to suggestions ) with a 10" Turbo Action Converter. A lot of these plans ( except the Dana ) were planned on years ago, when we first started playing with the 340 that's in the car now. Back then, I wanted a 12 second car, and to be completely honest, I would probably be happy with 12 seconds. I was just thinking that now I have better means, I wanted a faster car. Is an 11 second street car a tall order, unrealistic?

The fastest the car has run in the past was 8.80 in the 1/8th mile at Texas Raceway, Kennedale. Back then, it had the current 340 w/10:1 comp, 284/484 cam,Edelbrock LD340 intake, Holly 750 Vacuum secondary, ( Not sure of the heads, sorry )> I have a 727 that was worked over by a friend ( He did most of the work on the car ) and had a 4.88 sure grip. We were running 26" tires at the time. Oh, and an adjustable pinion snubber. In the quarter, I had the same motor with an Edelbrock performer cam, and a carter 600 AFB. With an open 2.94 rear and about 26" tall tires, ( all other above being the same ) it ran 14.60 at the Motorplex.

Dunno if any of that is relevant, but it was back then I set my mind on putting in a big block. I figured a 400 would be easier to install, but would probably cost more to build, so while it isn't a matter of cost is no object, I was expecting it to be expensive. It's just now I have more expendable income, and can budget in about 2K every 6 months just for the car, and will be nickel and diming my way to a better car in between. I think I figured $12K on the lean side of the budget, but am looking at a lot more on the fat govt. side.

Anyway...it's bed time, so I'll post again later...

Nite!

j

 

[Petzschler]

12k eh? buy MP's 500/505 crate engine.
cheers.

 

[68383GTS]

IF YOUR GOING
TO PLAY WITH IT
YOU MAY AS WELL
STROKE IT....

Jim

 

[Vic Storm]

Well said 68383GTS, that pretty much says it all! I am going to start out with a 451-stock heads but bigger valves. I plan on adding on later considering it seems the way to go. Probly stealth heads, MSD ignition and maybe a pro-charger eventually but I understand you have to build the engine for a pro-charger.
I will be taking the blk in to get them started on it next wednesday, time for pistons. What is a good 451 stroker piston, I know 440sourse has some good ones for $550, is there any other available for less money?

 

[cjcx3]

I guess I can't wrap my head arround the idea that a small block will perform as well as as equally treated big block. That kind of goes against the idea that there is no replacement for displacement. I will concede that a big block conversion will be more expensive than a small block replacement, but if I am going to the expense of changing a lot anyway, and I have always wanted a big block A-Body, why not? If I spend 3K on a 512 stroker 400 short block, and another 1500 on aluminum heads, that same money won't net me more power, and more importantly, more torque, if spent on a comparably equiped small block. I have found a complete 400 engine, and short shaft 727 for $400. I have found the stroker kit from 440source.com and have heard they are a good place. That is $2K. If I spend $600 on cam/lifters and bock prep/misc. parts, that is 3K for a short block. They also have a pair of aluminum heads for $900. Another $600 in head prep, and I have a nice set of aluminum heads. Will this take me a lot of money? Sure. Will a small block be less expensive to build? I haven't seen kits for small block strokers, so I can't say for sure. Could I build a small bock to make the power of a 512 CID B Engine? Sure...but how much would it be?

My trans is in fairly good shape, I think. It probably needs freshing up, which is why I will be doing that when I put it in my Demon. Same with my 340. I'll probably just transfer over my drive trane and exhaust system from my Duster now to the Demon when I get it here. Once I get the Duster stripped down for the body shop, it is all going to be replaced anyway. Building a solid foundation is what I am going for. This includes subframe connectors, Dana rear end, front disc brakes, and larger drum brakes, or disc, heavier springs, better tortion bars...a good, solid chassis for a go fast car. I am also considering a 12 pt roll cage for added safety, and rigidity. Is this a bit much for a street car? Maybe, but I have alwas gone a little overboard. Hell, I even want an 18 seat home theater

I guess I got mezmorized by the pro-street cars of yor, and still want one. Yes, I am considering tubbing and narrowing my Dana and running 31/13s

Anyway...I guess if you take the rest of the conversion into account, you might be able to get a small block to do 11's with the same money as a big block conversion.

j

Read the Dec. 08 Mopar Muscle about the street car show down. I have a 3500 lb 70 Duster, 440, Indy heads, 850 holley, 727, dana 60, 4.56 gears. Granted I only have 8.5:1 compression, but I run high 11's to 12.00 on 87 octane. There was a blue Duster with a 340, Edelbrock heads, stock stroke, ran in the 11's with out the juice. Now I had a stroker 496 ci 440 that I could not drive on the street-not streetable at all- and I only ran in the high 10's. Small blocks will twist up rpms so much faster, but the big blocks have alot more torque. I am considering going to the 451 400 stroker next, but my car is already set up for big block, so no extra $$$. Your call, either will perform the numbers you want. $$$ is the biggest issue. :read2: From experience- dont tub a street car. drivebility sux with the larger rear tires-wet roads= hydroplain. maybe mini tube with some 10 inch wide radials. remember the larger tire robs you more horse to the ground. I am losing about 20-30 horse with my 31*18.50*15 verses a good set of 28*10.0*15.

 

[daredevil]

Indy ez heads will help in the header clearance dept. 500 with ezs in my signature

 

[daredevil]

If you stroke a bb upgrade the oiling. read the mopar muscle article by Dick Landy ,search big block challenge.lot of good bb stroker info

 

[Petzschler]

i'm kinda going in the same direction. i'm shelving the 360 that I have, becouse i recently scored a (an apparently hard
to find) P4876793AC Siamese block. probably go the 4.18 bore x 4.00 stroke for a 440cid SmallBlock. I came to the
realization that the ported to bejesus iron heads ARE the limiting factor, bigger cams, more cubes, will not gain me a damn thing.
Not sure YET.. but I will either use a set of W2's or W5's (or mabey even the Indy 360's). but geez.. can T&D charge
any more $$$ for there W5 rocker setup? LOL. still will have a streetable package if I can help it. Its gonna be funner times next year.

 

[Vic Storm]

Daredevil, how bad spendy are those heads , real bad? I have read some about them and they sound pretty cool.

I guess I have always figured that BB are the beasts and I have mostly had SB cars and am always getting spanked in the stock world by BB's plus being a Missourian requires me by state law to doubt it! Not saying that there are not fast SB out there because I have raced some and been beat, I have raced againest some V6 ricers in my street rod that are truely bad to the bone, But I was in my SB 48 bowtie. At what cost does it take to get a sb to the BB stomping zone? Can you drop in a cam, bore it .30 over and add a carb and intake and headers and turn as fast a times as a BB with the same improvements?

 

[MopaR&D]

Why not build a stroker and top it off with some Hemi heads? It probably wouldn't cost more than getting big exotic ported heads.

 

[Longgone]

Why not build a stroker and top it off with some Hemi heads? It probably wouldn't cost more than getting big exotic ported heads.

I think he mentioned the Stage V head earlier? That would be cool though. You can build some big hp even using the Edelbrock Victor heads and still not break the bank. I haven`t read much on them but I believe the Stage V heads require further modifications and offer fewer choices of induction.