Torsion Bars (Raising/Lowering)

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DartGTDan

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Hey guys my buddy has a 1963 Dodge 440 (body style) with a 383 (engine). He wants to raise the front of it (somewhat gasser style) by cranking "up" the torsion bars. I assume turning the bolt clockwise will raise the vehicle (and likewise counter-clockwise will lower the vehicle). Is there any "rule of thumb" that one 360* revolution will raise/lower the vehicle by say 1/2"? By doing this, will it alter the front end alignment necessitating a new alignment? Also, I assume there are limits as to how high (or low) you can go by doing this. How do you know if you're at the upper, or lower, limit?:steering:
 
Nope. I would turn them with at least "some" or all weight off the front suspension. The amount it moves is going to depend on wheel offset and tires, IE wider "more offset" adds leverage against the suspension. I don't know if bigger vs smaller T bars will affec that or not.

Remember that height is set FIRST when doing an alignment, so you may need to re-check front end alignment.
 
cranking them all the way up will have ill effects on the handling.just try it and see.i think he will be lowering it back down
 
This is a bad idea.A really bad idea.
The adjusters are not so much for adjusting ride heights beyond a limited amount.
First, it pulls the tops of the wheels in, causing camber problems.
Then after you fix that, you get to deal with the tierod angle screw-up. So you generate a toe-change graph and find out the bump-steer is huge, and it will take several hundred dollars to fix that.And maybe it cannot even be fixed. So you do the best you can, and then the car follows every little irregularity on the road. and one day you are crossing a diagonal railway track, and the car takes off in a direction you had not commanded , and you crash that hi-boy.And then you get to explain that to your insurance guy. And hopefully nobody else gets involved.
And we haven't even talked about what happens when you apply the brakes.
Or what happens when you turn.
Or when just one wheel hits a bump.
Or how 'bout when one wheel hits a bump.... while turning.....and braking?
See here is the thing; A long time ago some engineer at Chrysler dreamed this front end up, and probably spent hundreds of hours figuring out how to make it work, under hundreds of circumstances.Along comes GTDan's friend who wants to throw it all away.
Gassers were for dragracing.
 
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This is a bad idea.A really bad idea.
The adjusters are not so much for adjusting ride heights beyond a limited amount.
First, it pulls the tops of the wheels in, causing camber problems.
Then after you fix that, you get to deal with the tierod angle screw-up. So you generate a toe-change graph and find out the bump-steer is huge, and it will take several hundred dollars to fix that.And maybe it cannot even be fixed. So you do the best you can, and then the car follows every little irregularity on the road. and one day you are crossing a diagonal railway track, and the car takes off in a direction you had not commanded , and you crash that hi-boy.And then you get to explain that to your insurance guy. And hopefully nobody else gets involved.
And we haven't even talked about what happens when you apply the brakes.
Or what happens when you turn.
Or when just one wheel hits a bump.
Or how 'bout when one wheel hits a bump.... while turning.....and braking?
See here is the thing; A long time ago some engineer at Chrysler dreamed this front end up, and probably spent hundreds of hours figuring out how to make it work, under hundreds of circumstances.Along comes GTDan's friend who wants to throw it all away.
Gassers were for dragracing.
How do I know where my Dart is in relation to where it is supposed to be?
My Dad said the previous owner turned the torsion bars all the way down low...
 
How do I know where my Dart is in relation to where it is supposed to be?
My Dad said the previous owner turned the torsion bars all the way down low...

Adjust it so the tie rods are parallel to the ground. That's the neutral position and up or down from that will introduce more bump steer.
 
Hey guys my buddy has a 1963 Dodge 440 (body style) with a 383 (engine). He wants to raise the front of it (somewhat gasser style) by cranking "up" the torsion bars. I assume turning the bolt clockwise will raise the vehicle (and likewise counter-clockwise will lower the vehicle). Is there any "rule of thumb" that one 360* revolution will raise/lower the vehicle by say 1/2"? By doing this, will it alter the front end alignment necessitating a new alignment? Also, I assume there are limits as to how high (or low) you can go by doing this. How do you know if you're at the upper, or lower, limit?:steering:

As AJ said it will create a ton of bump steer, camber, and castor issues. It can be a pretty scary experience. Driving 50 down a straight road bump steer can put you in the next lane over. You'd never get it to take an alignment. What I said in above post 7. When you go for the alignment don't go to one of the toe-n-go shops find someone who will do the proper job.
 
Adjust it so the tie rods are parallel to the ground. That's the neutral position and up or down from that will introduce more bump steer.

Except that's NOT the stock position. When the tie rods are parallel to the ground the car will be significantly lowered from the factory height.

Yes, you are correct, having the control arms and tie rods close to parallel to the ground is the best geometry for bump steer, as well as for camber gain when cornering and that geometry will improve handling all the way around if it's executed properly (larger torsion bars). And that's about where my cars are set up. But that's a lot lower than factory.

Here are the factory specs below (A-bodies use the V & L specs), as well as how to set the factory ride height. Now, keep in mind that the alignment specs are for bias ply's and should NOT be used with radial tires. And this is when the argument that the factory knew best goes out the window, because all of the stock alignment specs and geometry was intended to be used with bias ply's. When you mount radials, you need a totally different alignment AND geometry. Bias ply's don't like negative camber, radials do, and the stock camber gain plots reflect that from the stock ride height. With radials you're better off lowering the car so that the control arms are roughly parallel to the ground, but that lowers the car well over 1" from stock. And you should be running an alignment from the SKOSH chart (further below), not using the factory specs. And of course if you do lower that much you need larger torsion bars to reduce the amount of suspension travel used, since lowered cars have less available travel. Otherwise your car will be on the bump stops all the time.

As far as the original questions- Yes, you can use the torsion bar adjusters to raise the car some. Yes, you will absolutely need an alignment, just like any time you change the ride height. The amount you can raise the car will be determined by the ability to dial in acceptable alignment numbers (not very much). Outside of that, it's only limited by the length of the adjusters and the bumpstops, but you'll run out of alignment adjustment before either of those are a problem. You could install offset UCA bushings, although you would likely have to install them opposite from what is "normal", since they're usually used to regain decent alignment numbers on lowered cars. That would allow you to get your camber and caster numbers back to spec, but the bump steer would need a completely different solution.

Untitled-1.jpg

Alignment numbers for radial tires. Camber specs are good, so is toe. Caster should be as much as you can get up to about +3* if you have manual steering unless you don't mind the extra effort, sky's the limit for power, more caster = more stability at speed.
289d4j7.jpg
 
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Thanks guys I thought it was probably a bad idea to do so. He's all about "the look" with little care about safety (very thick headed).

Also, while we're pooh poohing his ideas, he's got bias ply tires up front and radials on the rear. From what I was told, and can't remember why, this is not to be done either. Why is that?
 
Hey guys my buddy has a 1963 Dodge 440 (body style) with a 383 (engine). He wants to raise the front of it (somewhat gasser style) by cranking "up" the torsion bars. I assume turning the bolt clockwise will raise the vehicle (and likewise counter-clockwise will lower the vehicle). Is there any "rule of thumb" that one 360* revolution will raise/lower the vehicle by say 1/2"? By doing this, will it alter the front end alignment necessitating a new alignment? Also, I assume there are limits as to how high (or low) you can go by doing this. How do you know if you're at the upper, or lower, limit?:steering:
If he wants a gasser look, tell him to stop screwin around and put an A100 van straight axle and leafs under it , and be done with it. IMHO the gasser look only works for pre war willys coupes and 55 chevys, totally ruins the ride quality, and looks kinda dumb under anything else, but what the heck do i know.
 
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Also, while we're pooh poohing his ideas, he's got bias ply tires up front and radials on the rear. From what I was told, and can't remember why, this is not to be done either. Why is that?

Mixing radials and bias is nothing short of an incredibly bad idea. Many years ago, I scored a set of bias snow tires cheap, and stuck them on the RR (Had the 70 back then) I figured "during the winter" I would only be using it for a "spare" and only at slow "around town." On a dry day, on the county road, it would damn near feel like it was going to waltz itself back off the road at only 30-35 mph

Even mixing radials can be bad. In the 80's my boss had a near new Dodge D150, 2wd, the rears were getting "down." So he sent me to the tire store to buy a pair. At 55 mph on the freeway it felt FOR SURE like it was going to swap ends. I told him and we ended up going back to get two more for the front.
 
How do I know where my Dart is in relation to where it is supposed to be?
My Dad said the previous owner turned the torsion bars all the way down low...
I know this is an old thread but. do I have to loosen lower control
arms to adjust torsion bars or can I just take the weight
off the car? Thanks
 
I know this is an old thread but. do I have to loosen lower control
arms to adjust torsion bars or can I just take the weight
off the car? Thanks

If you’re changing the ride height it’s a good idea to loosen the LCA pin nuts and retorque them at the new ride height. . That way you don’t tear the LCA bushings when you put thr car back on the ground. The rubber only deflects so far, that’s why those nuts are only supposed to be torqued to spec at ride height.
 
If you’re changing the ride height it’s a good idea to loosen the LCA pin nuts and retorque them at the new ride height. . That way you don’t tear the LCA bushings when you put thr car back on the ground. The rubber only deflects so far, that’s why those nuts are only supposed to be torqued to spec at ride height.
 
Except that's NOT the stock position. When the tie rods are parallel to the ground the car will be significantly lowered from the factory height.

Yes, you are correct, having the control arms and tie rods close to parallel to the ground is the best geometry for bump steer, as well as for camber gain when cornering and that geometry will improve handling all the way around if it's executed properly (larger torsion bars). And that's about where my cars are set up. But that's a lot lower than factory.

Here are the factory specs below (A-bodies use the V & L specs), as well as how to set the factory ride height. Now, keep in mind that the alignment specs are for bias ply's and should NOT be used with radial tires. And this is when the argument that the factory knew best goes out the window, because all of the stock alignment specs and geometry was intended to be used with bias ply's. When you mount radials, you need a totally different alignment AND geometry. Bias ply's don't like negative camber, radials do, and the stock camber gain plots reflect that from the stock ride height. With radials you're better off lowering the car so that the control arms are roughly parallel to the ground, but that lowers the car well over 1" from stock. And you should be running an alignment from the SKOSH chart (further below), not using the factory specs. And of course if you do lower that much you need larger torsion bars to reduce the amount of suspension travel used, since lowered cars have less available travel. Otherwise your car will be on the bump stops all the time.

As far as the original questions- Yes, you can use the torsion bar adjusters to raise the car some. Yes, you will absolutely need an alignment, just like any time you change the ride height. The amount you can raise the car will be determined by the ability to dial in acceptable alignment numbers (not very much). Outside of that, it's only limited by the length of the adjusters and the bumpstops, but you'll run out of alignment adjustment before either of those are a problem. You could install offset UCA bushings, although you would likely have to install them opposite from what is "normal", since they're usually used to regain decent alignment numbers on lowered cars. That would allow you to get your camber and caster numbers back to spec, but the bump steer would need a completely different solution.

View attachment 1714957878
Alignment numbers for radial tires. Camber specs are good, so is toe. Caster should be as much as you can get up to about +3* if you have manual steering unless you don't mind the extra effort, sky's the limit for power, more caster = more stability at speed.
View attachment 1715165714
Thank you again for posting those pictures as I was able to copy paste them and want to take them to the cat that's doing my alignment and make sure he's doing it right now! LOL it's an old high-school friend so I can give him a really hard time:poke:
 
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DusterIdiot

Post subject: OEM alphabet soup...
PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:35 pm
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Joined: Tue Oct 29, 2002 8:27 pm
Posts: 9325
Location: Salem, OR
Car Model*:
V=Valiant
L=Dart (check the letter in your VIN it's gonna start V or L)
H=Volare
N=Aspen
S=Cordoba/ Chrysler Special Model
B=Barracuda
J=Challenger
P=Gran Fury/Fury(early 70's)
D=Monaco
C=Chrysler
R=Fury(late models), Satellite/Sebring
Y=Chrysler Luxury model
W=Coronet/Charger
X=Charger SE, etc..
There usually is a chart at the bottom of most pages in the Parts Catalog that translates this for the service dept.
 
High riser!!!
Didnt need to do that myself. My 68 charger did that on its own whenever i'd stab the loud pedal lol
 
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