Totally Dissapointed!!!!!

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Small Block

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I had a 318 built by a local performance shop and was to be a 300 HP motor. Well to say the least it hasn't impressed me at this point in time. The shop hasn't impressed me with their support for what ever reason. I think this is because they are more chevy and ford people as they don't have the stuff to dyno a mopar but do for the others. It smokes like a ***** after app.400 total miles. Oil is coming from somewhere. I took it in and they looked at it and told me it was the PCV and to put a new one in and drive it......that will be $90. Ain't doin that no more. It has M/T holley cast valve covers on it and they mention that they may not be baffled correctly. I think Holley has an idea what they are doing so i don't think that holds much water. I'll give you a brief discription of the motor for now and i'll go out to the shop tomorrow and get the specs on the cam and give more details. But for now it is as follows:

72 318 block 30 over
holley 650 DP/DF
360 J heads with 2.02 valves
340 crank
edelbrock performer DP alum intake/now i have to cxhange the throttle cable because the intake is higher.
340 HP exhaust thru flowmasters to the rear stock resonators.
3.23 sure grip 8 3/4
It runs at 60 psi oil pressure
I was running it without a pcv with vented valve cover caps as the builde said he has done alot then i went to a pcv vented to the bottom of the back side of carb. I may get a MSD dist. this weekend in St Louis. It's running a stock dist right now but that don't have any thging to do wioth the oil smoking. I'll get back with more details tomorrow but if you guys have any suggestions before i drive this ***** off a cliff speak up. I'll have brick man post a pic of the car. I know it can be fixed. Just have to stand back and through more money at it.
 
Been there as well. It doesn't help when a shop treats your motor like it has coooodies.
The stock distributor is fine and the MSD is a waste of money at this point. If you need it upgraded, ethier re-curve it or get a MP unit with an adjustable advance.
A baffle (or set of) inside the valve cover is a good thing to have. If not there, the oil gets sucked up into the carb and down the intake over the valves crating a mess and killing the air fuel mix.
Baffle the valve covers.
 
Baffle the valve covers? Just make sure they have a nice clear opening? Here is a pick of small blks Duster, sweet ride.

Black Car @ Mammoth Springs.jpg
 
It could be sucking oil into the intake ports from below the manifold in the lifter valley. Is it black , blue, or white smoke? I hope it is an easy find/fix for you. Nothing worse than puttin' your new engine in only to have it not run like it's supposed to.
 
Small Block said:
I had a 318 built by a local performance shop and was to be a 300 HP motor. Well to say the least it hasn't impressed me at this point in time. The shop hasn't impressed me with their support for what ever reason. I think this is because they are more chevy and ford people as they don't have the stuff to dyno a mopar but do for the others. It smokes like a ***** after app.400 total miles. Oil is coming from somewhere. I took it in and they looked at it and told me it was the PCV and to put a new one in and drive it......that will be $90. Ain't doin that no more. It has M/T holley cast valve covers on it and they mention that they may not be baffled correctly. I think Holley has an idea what they are doing so i don't think that holds much water. I'll give you a brief discription of the motor for now and i'll go out to the shop tomorrow and get the specs on the cam and give more details. But for now it is as follows:

72 318 block 30 over
holley 650 DP/DF
360 J heads with 2.02 valves
340 crank
edelbrock performer DP alum intake/now i have to cxhange the throttle cable because the intake is higher.
340 HP exhaust thru flowmasters to the rear stock resonators.
3.23 sure grip 8 3/4
It runs at 60 psi oil pressure
I was running it without a pcv with vented valve cover caps as the builde said he has done alot then i went to a pcv vented to the bottom of the back side of carb. I may get a MSD dist. this weekend in St Louis. It's running a stock dist right now but that don't have any thging to do wioth the oil smoking. I'll get back with more details tomorrow but if you guys have any suggestions before i drive this ***** off a cliff speak up. I'll have brick man post a pic of the car. I know it can be fixed. Just have to stand back and through more money at it.
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Sorry to hear about that, that sucks. Baffle the valve covers if you can. Also install a clear (plastic) fuel filter inbetween the pcv and pcv port on the carb. What that will do is filter out the oil and let the air pass. Keeps any oil out of your intake, even though its usually minimal, doesnt hurt and you can see how much has been passing through the filter.

Dont waste your time/money on a MSD distributor, if anything go to 4secondsflat.com and get a FBO distributor, they tweak them to your specs. You'll be much happier. 340 crank is the same as a 318, just balanced differently...hopefully you had them balance it as well. With no mention of a high stall converter, and a mention of more highway prone gearing..the double pump is too much carb, much too much (unless you have a 4speed..which there was no mention of). Throw a vac secondary 600/650 on there (performer, afb, or AVS...which mind you is WELL worth the extra money as far as tuning the secondaries).

If you did not have different pistons or the heads milled you will have a LOW compression ratio running those heads on a 318...which will also hinder performance quite a bit if you bolted those onto a 318 without changing anything.

What size cam?
 
I noticed your running the performer intake with the 360 heads, I had this combo on my 318 aslo. The performer manifold has the small ports that match up to the 318 heads, I don't know for sure what this does but, I switched to a performer rpm so that the runners are the same size. The rpm manifold has larger ports.
 
Large valves on a small bore? They better of zero decked them pistons if you want it to run like it should. Didn't Steve Dulich (Sorry about spelling) build a killer low budget 318 a few years back that put out a very streetable 400 ponies? (Although, I think he used magnum heads...)
Way sorry to hear about your problems. I have a 340 stroker that I have to pull again (3x's), this time for loss of oil pressure. Oh well, if everything went perfectly we wouldn't be having any fun.....

Keep us up on how you are doing with this.

Revhendo.
 
:coffee2: Hi, I am building a 340 at this time also. and feel bad for you as this is my first build and have fears also. I took my x heads in and had new guides, seals and seats installed even though they were off a running car when I bought them. The heads I was going to install needed all guides seats and 4 exhaust valves. I also had them install used mopar performance springs with dampers that I bought off ebay, they luckily checked OK, my point is that maybe the guides are leaking oil or the guide seals? If there did you install new valve seals? if one is leaking maybe close visual inspection will show one broken. JUST SPECULATING AND HOPING IT ISN'T SOMETHING SERIOUS LIKE A BROKEN RING. YOU CAN REPLACE BAD SEALS ON THE CAR.
GOOD LUCK,Old man "walt" turning mechanic :pirat:
 
Really, before the shop gets bashed or blamed, you need to determine what's really wrong. I would suggest warming it up, pulling the plugs. Keep them in order, and look at them closely. Are they oily? Look wet? Is it one or more than one? Do a compression test. Write down readings for all cylinders. I fat all possible, pay a shop for a leakdown test if you cant do one yourself. Docmunet everything they find. Pull the valve cover with the PCV in it. Holley isnt that good...lol. If the valve cover doesnt have a baffle, put one in. Pull the carb off. It's only 4 bolts, a few linkage connections, and the fuel line...Peak down the ports. Use a small mirror on a telescopong shaft. (Parts stores have them) Is there any oil visible? One of those things will tell you waht is not right. Smoking could be a result of running that double pumper on a 318. It's too much fuel unless it's tuned right. It's very possible the rings are washed out. But the compression and leakdown will show if that is true. If the plugs are nasty, put in a new set, and see after a few miles of driving what they look like. Also, check your ignition. If it was weak, that can also lead to smoking. If it's the shop's fault, then you throw it back at them. If it was a result of your installation and breakin, then it's really not thier problem. (I just spent $600 of my own money, plus time to fix a smoking issue that wasnt my problem, so I cna empathize with both sides here...lol)
 
Just to let you guys know, this is a NEW motor built buy people that are suppose to know which end is up but i know for a fact that some of you guys are more schooled on Mopars than the builder. I've seen some of the articles in MM on the killer smallblocks and will look back and see the combo. I get different opinions on carb size. Builder says 650 OK . Others say too big. I'll fix the oil then go to carb. Tranny is a stock 904 with nothing done other than rebuild for $425. Stall is 2800 and i am impressed with this combo. I know i will need to do more work on the tranny. Should i go to a small block 727? The valve covers are baffled but will do the filter trip and even get some clear hose. Headed for Wally World now and will check the cam specks when i get back and post them. Still need help guys. Thanks Storm for the pic.
 
Small Block said:
Just to let you guys know, this is a NEW motor built buy people that are suppose to know which end is up but i know for a fact that some of you guys are more schooled on Mopars than the builder. I've seen some of the articles in MM on the killer smallblocks and will look back and see the combo. I get different opinions on carb size. Builder says 650 OK . Others say too big. I'll fix the oil then go to carb. Tranny is a stock 904 with nothing done other than rebuild for $425. Stall is 2800 and i am impressed with this combo. I know i will need to do more work on the tranny. Should i go to a small block 727? The valve covers are baffled but will do the filter trip and even get some clear hose. Headed for Wally World now and will check the cam specks when i get back and post them. Still need help guys. Thanks Storm for the pic.
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650cfm is not the problem, i have a 650cfm Eddie on my 318. The problem is how it gets its 650cfm, the double pumper is just too much carb for it, due to manual secondaries instantly feeding the motor too much gas from the crack of the throttle. If it had a high stall converter, low gears and such, the 318 could take what a double pumper dishes out. Your combo needs a vacuum advance carb to run best. You definately do not need a small block 727 for your setup. A 904 will do you just fine.

Good luck.
 
This is the reason I build my own engines.Then I have no one to blame but me.And I haven't yelled at myself in many years.
 
here they are.
Comp Cam Part # 20-223-3
Gross valve lift intake .477
Gross valve lift exhaust .480
Duration @.006 tappet lift 268 intake 280 exhaust

Duration @ .050 224 int 230 ex
lobe lift .3180 int .3200 ex
lobe separation 110.0

By this info what would you recommend?

The advice on having the leak down done is good and compression check also. I ask the shop on thursday when i had the car up there to check plugs and do a comp ck but they didn't think it was necessary. I even took them a set of new plugs. They checked one and said it was ok. As you have noticed i haven't mention any shop name YET but could happen. There is another shop in town that the owner use to work for the guy that built my motor. I've talked with him and said he gets the blame for failed engines he never worked on. I've also heard of and seen good engines from the guy that built mine. The jury is still out and before it's over i'll spend a lot more getting it right. Still taking advice. Hah!!! good and bad.

Now for more info. The carb has been changed to a new one and the ports are clean. No oil.

I have a 600 cfm carb if i need to drop down.

If my stock ignition is weak then what's the fix?

Someone mentioned washed rings. If so what's the fix on that?

So that i don't get scammed what is the procedure for the leakdown test?

When you speak of zero deck on the pistons you mean the pistons should come up to the top of the block on the compression stroke?

Whats the formula for figuring compression ration vs psi compression??
 
Dart360Custom said:
do a compression test and post the results. What oil is in the motor? 400 miles the rings are probly still seating some also.
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Not very likely. Todays rings that are sold and the percision of the bore and what not lead to very, very short break-in times. seating of the rings pretty much consists of the cam break in. Many engine builders, racers, etc break their cams in and go make some dyno pulls or run it down the track. (myself included) with no ill effects.

just my 2cents.
 
GoodysGotaCuda said:
Not very likely. Todays rings that are sold and the percision of the bore and what not lead to very, very short break-in times. seating of the rings pretty much consists of the cam break in. Many engine builders, racers, etc break their cams in and go make some dyno pulls or run it down the track. (myself included) with no ill effects.

just my 2cents.
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Really that depends on the cylinder wall finish and the type of rings used. If he put synthetic oil in it and they were not seated will also cause the problem he describes. Forged pistons with increased cyl wall clearance will also have a slight oil consumption and/or noise at startup.
It could be something as simple as the oil ring gaps were matched up when it was assembled.
 
The ring gaps question did come up and may be an issue. If we do a tear down i'll know. The builder said to use straight 30 weight for break in but has since had me to go to 20-50. I use Castrol GTX. I'll do a comp test and put up the #s probably tomorrow. For now it Mopars and Margeritas.
Hey Goody: I see elsewhere you are looking for a 650 DP for your 318. I've got two builders for $100 ea plus shipping.

Anyone going to Monster Mopar Weekend in St louis this coming weekend? I can't wait every year.
 
Small Block said:
Hey Goody: I see elsewhere you are looking for a 650 DP for your 318. I've got two builders for $100 ea plus shipping.
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Actually holding off on buying one for a month or two because I'm redoing my entire fuel system at the moment and funds are limited. Thanks for the offer though.

*Just avoiding confusion about me saying a 650 d/p is too much for your 318 and yet im looking for one. I have a 3,500rpm footbrake, 3,900rpm flash, low gear set in my 904, 3.91s in the rear and 26" slicks, my drivetrain is a little more strip orientated in which the double pumper may allow for an improvement. I do currently run a 650cfm Thunder AVS on there right now, I'm happy with it, runs great daily..just for all out race use I'm trying the holley d/p out. :toothy7:
 
Did you look into the valve cover baffles or not?
If they aren't there, the oil usage issue stops right there, IMO.

Also, the 318/360 Performer is a good design of intake, but in order to get the large port you MUST grind the the opening of the port to get full effect.
It tapers out to 340-360 sized porting @ 3/4" down the runners.

An engine builder guy I know has always said "95% of all 'faulty' engines I've built turn out to be 'installer error' when it all comes down to it".

For the most part, I agree, but I still final-assemble the stuff myself.

Mark.
 
exactly what mark nixon is saying was my point about the performer and 360 head combo, I know it doesn't have anything to do with the oil burning but, I matched up my performer intake and 360 heads and there is a very large step between the manifold and heads. the fuel runs right into it and probably causes all kinds of unwanted turbulence.
 
At some point there were 318/360 performer intakes and 340/360 intakes. the 318/360 had 318 size ports and the 340/360 had 360 sized ports...My old 360 71 dart had a 340/360 performer on it...
 
I am kind of wondering what special equipment they need to dyno it? don't you just strap it down and take readings?

also why 20-50?

please correct me if I am wrong...

I have always heard about the non-detergent oil for break-in of a new motor, but 20-50 doesn't sound right for a new/rebuilt motor.
 
DBrown said:
I am kind of wondering what special equipment they need to dyno it? don't you just strap it down and take readings?

also why 20-50?

please correct me if I am wrong...

I have always heard about the non-detergent oil for break-in of a new motor, but 20-50 doesn't sound right for a new/rebuilt motor.
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Nothing special for a dyno pull. They'll strap it down, stick the wideband sensors in the tail pipes and hook to the #1 spark plug wire.

the thicker oil can take up a little more clearance to maybe help aid in your issue. I run 15w-40 diesel oil, daily, since day one with no issues. Just my 2cents

DynoPull.gif
 
thats what I thought about the dyno...

I always changed to a heavier weight oil as I got more miles for that situation. more clearence on everything would need more weight to bring up oil pressure and ease knocking. for a new motor with 400 miles on it that sounds weird, but I have not built many motors so you probably have alot more knowledge on the subject then I do...

did he ever look to see what color the smoke was? I was always told if you are rich the smoke will be black, if you are burning oil it will be blue or white in color.

also you can pull the plugs your self and probably figure it out. if the plugs are black then you are rich, if the plugs are white you are lean. also look for oil on them and see if they are soaked with gas...

write it all down marking where they came from and the condition each plug was in. that will at least get you to where you know what cycl, is suspect.
 
They probably have an engine dyno and not a floor dyno. In which case strapping it down doesn't describe it. It has to have the crank hub adapter, bell housing adapter, mount brackets and water fittings. They probably aren't set up for that.

Why on earth would you take your Mopar engine and entrust it to a bunch of chevy and ford geeks? That's the first mistake. Secondly 20W-50 oil is stupid. They obviously have no idea what they are doing. 10W-30 would be the heaviest weight oil I'd ever recommend in a small block.

Now, does it use oil? I still haven't seen what color smoke is being produced. I'll have to wait for your answer to that before I'd hazard any more diagnosis of your problem. Also I'd want to know when does it smoke? All the time, on acceleration, at idle, on deceleration, at cruise, low speed, high speed, cold start, hot soak restart? Many variables here and each one could point to a different cause.
 
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