TTi shorty headers v ministarter

-
A

Abodysrule

FABO Gold Member
FABO Gold Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2018
Messages
373
Reaction score
107
Location
California
I just did a SL6 to 360 Magnum swap in my '67 Dart. I have planned this from the get go, I already had heavier torsion bars, sway bars, beefier leafs in the back, 8.75 posi, bigger brakes, 15 inch tires, etc. The 360 Magnum is a HUGE change in power (dyno'd at 375 hp/420 lb-ft). All good with the swap, I'm very happy with the conversion...that 360 mag is a BEAST! I'm running 2.76's in the chunk, but my A904 has lower-than-stock first and second gears. Even with those highway gears in the rear, it will easily smoke those 215 60R/15's. Sorry, I digress...on to the issue at hand.

There is one thing. On cold starts it cranks and starts quickly, but I noticed that after I've driven it for awhile, the starter turns over slowly on restart. OK, the first thing I thought of was too much advance in the timing. But no, I have it at 12 degrees base and not more than 32 degrees total. Just to be sure, I even set the base timing to 0 degrees and ran it for awhile, same issue. It starts when hot, but it has that characteristic hard crank of an engine too far advanced. So, I think my TTi shorty's may be cooking the little mini-starter. The thing is, there is PLENTY of clearance between the header/down pipe and the starter, like a few inches.

Has anyone had this issue?

Brian
 
Abodysrule said:
Has anyone had this issue?
Click to expand...
No. I ran a mini and TTI shortys on my 68 Valiant.I would check to see that you have good grounds.
Like you stated there is plenty of clearance. My buddy had issues sounding just like yours and is was a ground issue. We added a ground strap from body to engine and starter to K frame that cured his problem. My 2 cents.

IMG_2645.jpg
 
I’m not sure why it’s slow to crank, but it looks like all four tubes collect right at starter. Might be excessive heat? I run tti long tubes on my magnum swap, and I think the starter is exposed to less heat with them pretty big pocket) however it is also a bit slow to crank when hot but I also run 16 degrees initial.

IMG_4220.jpeg
 
Darter6, I'm pretty sure that I have good grounds. My battery is in the trunk, but I have a lug in the engine bay hooked directly to the battery negative. I have ground strap from the engine block to the firewall, and also another ground from that negative battery lug to the starter case. That said, I'll check that ground to the starter.

Question: why would it start easily when cold and harder when hot due to a bad ground? Wouldn't that make it hard to start at any temp?

Brian
 
Sorry- I’m late to this question:
1) heat adds resistance to electrical.
2) what size battery cables are you running? Too small of a cable can affect crank speed.
3) timming also effects load on the starter. Too much and the starter is fighting to start.
4) float setting off? Sound weird right? But if the float is off when hot it can allow fuel to drip out. Evaporates by the time car cools off. Smell oil on dipstick for smell of gas.
5) Bad starter windings. New does not matter. So much chay-na parts in side now that are garbage (they tend to use cheaper thinner wire for the windings to save money)
 
Abodysrule said:
Question: why would it start easily when cold and harder when hot due to a bad ground? Wouldn't that make it hard to start at any temp?
Click to expand...
Good question. Heat causes resistance . Higher resistance harder to start.
I was going by past experiences when trouble shooting.
 
I got one of the Heatshield starter covers. Fits well but haven’t used it yet.

IMG_4395.jpeg
 
To Syleng1's points, we covered the timing and I'm using FiTech 30003 so no floats. It's getting fuel.

So maybe heat causing the resistance. I'm using large battery cables (6 gauge?) for my grounds. I checked the connection with my ohm meter from the negative terminal block to the starter case, good connection. I suppose I could try it again when it's hot, but I'll have to be careful.

The setup is the same as you see in Darter6's pic above, TTi shorty's and a ministarter (Remi, new).

As a first step, I'll lift her up and clean the connection at the wire on the starter case. It's new, but I imagine perhaps some grease or something could be on there. If that doesn't do anything, I'll put a heat shield around the starter, maybe my engine runs hotter than Darter6's. The coolant at operating temp is at 200 degrees, but those headers sure get hot.

I'll report back on findings. Thanks everyone.

brian
 
Your ground needs to be at least as big as your positive. Is the battery under the hood? You can never go wrong by using fatter cables. Batterycablesusa.com is who I use. Great turn around time and excellent choices.
 
Abodysrule said:
The coolant at operating temp is at 200 degrees,
Click to expand...
I ran a 190* thermostat. So everything seems the same.
This is just a thought... Your battery is in the trunk. Where does the negative cable from the battery go to ground ?
I ask as (sometimes) the cable from battery is grounded to the rear frame rail.Many times this is fine and never is a problem. My Dart race car was a 13 to1 compression, it labored to start hot,fine cold.
A fellow racer said to run the cable from the trunk battery to the engine/bellhousing bolt. No labored starting after that.
Just kinda shooting in the dark hoping to find you a answer.
 
Hmmm, my negative cable runs from the trunk all the way to a lug on the driver's side fender well. From there I run the ground cable to the starter at the bell housing/starter case bolt. All new cable, clean connections/bolts. That's only a few feet longer than running the battery negative directly to the bell housing bolt. I also run a ground strap from the bell housing/engine bolt to the firewall.

It could be mine is running a bit hotter than yours. It is also high compression, and I think you said yours was a 273 running about 220 hp. My 360 mag dyno'd at 375hp. I noticed when setting the timing and checking at 2800 rpm those headers were cherry red. I'll put a heat shield on there and see if that changes anything.

I'll report back after the heat shield test. Might be Monday before I get to it.

Brian
 
Yeah, I think it was the timing too high at that point, when I was adjusting it initially. They don't glow during normal operation. I checked with an IR thermometer, they are running about 500 degrees. The AFR is good, I programmed it for 14.5 at idle and 13 ish under load.

It was me being stupid and cooking my beautiful ceramic coating...
 
Last edited:
Abodysrule said:
Yeah, I think it was the timing too high at that point, when I was adjusting it initially. They don't glow during normal operation. I checked with an IR thermometer, they are running about 500 degrees. The AFR is good, I programmed it for 14.5 at idle and 13 ish under load.

It was me being stupid and cooking my beautiful ceramic coating...
Click to expand...
Do you have a known good battery that you can substitute?
 
I don't, but I'm sure the battery is good and the charging system is working. Let me try the heat shield and get back to you all.

B
 
I'm just offering this up as I took the advice of others on here when I built the avatar and it has worked well for these aspects of cranking.

My battery is in the trunk. For the ground, I welded a nut to the right rear framerail directly below the battery. The 2/0 ground cable goes straight down and bolts to that nut. Very short cable, easy peasy.

I also welded a nut to the right front inner framerail near the trans/engine interface. Another short 2/0 cable from one of the rear block/trans bolts to this nut. Again...easy peasy. And less total weight (and $$!) than running an unnecessary ground cable from the rear all the way to the front of the car.

Car is a 10.5CR 408 that runs low 11's and is also driven on the streets here in the Florida heat. Mini-starter that spins the motor like crazy hot or cold even though it has Hooker SuperComp 1-3/4" headers wrapped close to the starter.

Again, offering this up from others that gave me the ideas to save cost, weight, and improved functionality. And as @66Valiant528 noted, I also used Batterycablesusa.com to get my supplies.
 
Great stuff. I really like the weld a nut to the frame at each end idea....

I had the same setup with the slant 6, I never had any cranking issues there, but then again the starter was no where near the down pipes (2 into 1, Dutra Duals).

If the heat shield doesn't fix it, I know where to go next.

Brian
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
-

Back
Top