TTI vs Dougs

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Anytime the emmisivity is reduced the radiated heat is reduced. Make a surface bright and shiney - like chromed and it will reduce the emmisivity. Reducing conduction is what an insulating material can do.
 
krazykuda said:
Anything that decreases the diameter inside the pipe will not flow as much as the larger pipe...

If you are going to run a thermal barrier, put it on the OUTSIDE of the pipe so it doesn't restrict flow....

I gotta go with Rumblefish on this one...
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Do any of you ever see a hi dollar professional race car that " isn`t " coated, I haven`t seen one in years ! I don't think they`re worried about flaking and getting back into the engine thru reversion !!
 
famous bob said:
Do any of you ever see a hi dollar professional race car that " isn`t " coated, I haven`t seen one in years ! I don't think they`re worried about flaking and getting back into the engine thru reversion !!
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We're not worried about flaking getting back into the cylinder, but the ID reduction restricting the flow....

If the ID of the pipes gets smaller, the flow restriction is increased...

Thermal coatings should be on the outside of the pipes, not the inside.... That way it doesn't make the ID smaller...
 
krazykuda said:
We're not worried about flaking getting back into the cylinder, but the ID reduction restricting the flow....

If the ID of the pipes gets smaller, the flow restriction is increased...

Thermal coatings should be on the outside of the pipes, not the inside.... That way it doesn't make the ID smaller...
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So how thick do u think it is ???Leanna could answer this if she reads this post.
I`d almost bet it aint over .003 thick, that aint gonna hurt any flow !
Cudachick , u out there >??
 
famous bob said:
So how thick do u think it is ???Leanna could answer this if she reads this post.
I`d almost bet it aint over .003 thick, that aint gonna hurt any flow !
Cudachick , u out there >??
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Yes, that thickness will not affect flow much, but we're talking theory and trying to squeeze every last bit of power out that we can....

Not to mention that the inside of the tube is a much harsher environment for the coating to live in compared to the outside of the tube.... Coatings have a hard enough time staying on the outside of the tube as it is, why make it harder on the coating by putting it on the inside????

Do they put the paper wrapper on the inside of the straw that contacts your drink????
 
krazykuda said:
Yes, that thickness will not affect flow much, but we're talking theory and trying to squeeze every last bit of power out that we can....

Not to mention that the inside of the tube is a much harsher environment for the coating to live in compared to the outside of the tube.... Coatings have a hard enough time staying on the outside of the tube as it is, why make it harder on the coating by putting it on the inside????

Do they put the paper wrapper on the inside of the straw that contacts your drink????
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Hell, I don't even have a problem with hi heat 2000# paint staying on mine , the thermal coating is tougher than paint.
Look again , all the pro run it ! " Are they all wrong ? "
The only reason for it flaking off or burning off would be a piss/poor job putting it on to start with.
 
famous bob said:
Hell, I don't even have a problem with hi heat 2000# paint staying on mine , the thermal coating is tougher than paint.
Look again , all the pro run it ! " Are they all wrong ? "
The only reason for it flaking off or burning off would be a piss/poor job putting it on to start with.
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I have yet to see a coating that will last on exhaust... Especially on daily drivers...
 
famous bob said:
So how thick do u think it is ???Leanna could answer this if she reads this post.
I`d almost bet it aint over .003 thick, that aint gonna hurt any flow !
Cudachick , u out there >??
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.003" is not a thermal barrier, but just a coating...

Thermal barriers are much thicker...
 
Mattax said:
Anytime the emmisivity is reduced the radiated heat is reduced. Make a surface bright and shiney - like chromed and it will reduce the emmisivity. Reducing conduction is what an insulating material can do.
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This is where the science is. ^^^
When we have a new product development at work that is having thermal issues, i.e. not able to get the heat out of the box, we will paint the inside flat black. Typically we gain ~8% in reduced core temperature. Same thing works in reverse by using bright or polished finish there is less emissivity of radiated energy, the heat won't go in or out. Header wrap acts just like the insulation in your house. The material blocks thermal conduction.

An IR thermal temp gun makes it easy to prove to yourself. Shoot something polished on your engine that is bolted to something black or unpainted. The temp readings will be significantly different, event though the surfaces are the same temp and will burn you just as bad.
 
gzig5 said:
Two different methods to prevent heat from going where you don't want it.
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No .003" or less is just a coating meant to make the appearance look better...

Thermal barriers are much thicker to be of any use...

.003" for a thermal barrier does as much good as pissing in the ocean to raise the water level....
 
krazykuda said:
No .003" or less is just a coating meant to make the appearance look better...

Thermal barriers are much thicker to be of any use...

.003" for a thermal barrier does as much good as pissing in the ocean to raise the water level....
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If you say so..
 
Going from a non coated header to a coated (no thermal inside) makes a huge difference in temps.

I doubt the delta from no interior thermal to thermal coated is much. I heard the coating is not throughout the complete interior tubing either. Might be an interesting test to see temps with each iteration.
 
It makes sense that any type of coating/barrier that keeps heat in the pipe, will lead to better performance. Theoretically, if the tube stays cooler, there will be more of a "draw" which will lead to more power. That said, it's only a 318 with a stock 340 cam and stock 318 heads, so I wouldn't expect the "thermal barrier" option from TTi to result in a noticeable difference in power. I was more interested in the lower underhood temp, and keeping a little more heat away from pumps/wires/reservoirs/etc under the hood.

It seems like everyone generally rates both Doug's and TTI very favorably, and very comparable to each other, with an ever-so-slight edge to the TTI's . I was prepared to shell out the $$ on the TTI's, but with the 20% off deal through Auto Zone, the ceramic Doug's really are only $560 right now, compared to $954 (incl shipping) for TTi. That's hard to pass-up on its own, but when you add-in the fact that TTI says there's a 4-6wk lead time for the 273/318 headers, I think I'm going to go with the Doug's.
 
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krazykuda said:
We're not worried about flaking getting back into the cylinder, but the ID reduction restricting the flow....

If the ID of the pipes gets smaller, the flow restriction is increased...

Thermal coatings should be on the outside of the pipes, not the inside.... That way it doesn't make the ID smaller...
Click to expand...

Umm, you may be interested in watching the Enginemaster video where Dulcich and Frieburger bash a set of headers on a dyno test engine with a hammer and back to back dyno pulls show no appreciative loss of power. If the theory of more flow equals more power was actually true, we’d all be running 2 1/4” headers on our small blocks. A .015” coating on the inside of a header is going to have a negligible effect on power.
 
fishmarket said:
Umm, you may be interested in watching the Enginemaster video where Dulcich and Frieburger bash a set of headers on a dyno test engine with a hammer and back to back dyno pulls show no appreciative loss of power. If the theory of more flow equals more power was actually true, we’d all be running 2 1/4” headers on our small blocks. A .015” coating on the inside of a header is going to have a negligible effect on power.
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In a later episode, they go through various headers diameters.
 
gabe380 said:
It makes sense that any type of coating/barrier that keeps heat in the pipe, will lead to better performance. Theoretically, if the tube stays cooler, there will be more of a "draw" which will lead to more power. That said, it's only a 318 with a stock 340 cam and stock 318 heads, so I wouldn't expect the "thermal barrier" option from TTi to result in a noticeable difference in power. I was more interested in the lower underhood temp, and keeping a little more heat away from pumps/wires/reservoirs/etc under the hood.

It seems like everyone generally rates both Doug's and TTI very favorably, and very comparable to each other, with an ever-so-slight edge to the TTI's . I was prepared to shell out the $$ on the TTI's, but with the discount through Advance, the ceramic Doug's really are only $560 right now, compared to $954 (incl shipping) for TTi. That's hard to pass-up on its own, but when you add-in the fact that TTI says there's a 4-6wk lead time for the 273/318 headers, I think I'm going to go with the Doug's.
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The impact on underhood temperatures breakdown like this:
Radiated heat doesn't directly transfer to the air. It tranfers to the first solid object. The darker it is, the more it will transfer.
Insulating the headers with a thicker coating will reduce the amount of heat conducted to the surface, and from there transfered to the air (convection) and radiated. Zirconium dioxide is one of the few coatings that will do that. Its a commercial process, although in the US Swaintech specifically markets it for headers (they call it white lightning or such). It will bring the overall heat conduction through the tubing about the same as if they were made of stainless steel.

If that sounds like overkill for modest gains, a decent polymer coating will certainly not hurt, and probably will help reduce the heat transfer - especially the radiated heat transfer (if its not black). The inorganic components in the coating can make a big difference in the coatings properties. So it is probable that ones with higher insulating materials in them may have less conduction than ones that have something like aluminum in them. But the point that a .003 film is going to have little effect on overall conduction through the tube is correct. The main things you'll be reducing is the heat transfer off the surface.
 
Dennis H said:
Underhood temperatures reduced by 100 degrees with the ceramic TTI’s vs similar cars with stock exhaust at summertime car shows. Not scientific, but did use a thermal temp gun.
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Really? That was my question. Is heat dissipation. Old saying. "Older headers work better?" Is because oxided steel dissipates heat better. Now im sure today's coatings take heat dissipation into consideration. But all they seem to be concerned about is at what temperature they discolor? My rusty Hookers do a very good job at that.
 
I recently installed TTI headers (1 7/8" primaries ceramic coated polished with the thermal barrier) on my 360 in a 71 dart. The underhood temperature is noticeably lower and more aggressive performance. My main sell on these were the bigger size and ground clearance since the old headers were destroyed. These fit like a glove and no exhaust leaks at all. The old headers were hedeman.
 
mattq said:
I recently installed TTI headers (1 7/8" primaries ceramic coated polished with the thermal barrier) on my 360 in a 71 dart. The underhood temperature is noticeably lower and more aggressive performance. My main sell on these were the bigger size and ground clearance since the old headers were destroyed. These fit like a glove and no exhaust leaks at all. The old headers were hedeman.
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So tell us , how thick ur real life , thermal barrier inside coating is, can u even tell how thick it is ? I`d almost bet u cant, because Its so thin. The thermal barrier thing originally came out of the space program , just like cryogenic treating--------------???????????
 
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