Ultimate daily-driver Gen II A Body to build

[Bill Dedman]

I was just turning over some ideas in my so-called brain and was thinking about the new 2014 Mopar offerings, and wondering if there is an alternative to dropping $30,000.00 on a new car using a 1965 Valiant sedan and spending a lot less... How much would be up for discussion, to get a car that would perform in most instances, as well as a new Challenger in most important respects.

This would not be a cheap car to build, but would have a lot of gee-whiz, aftermarket hardware that could be included in its attempt to equal, or better, what is available in a new car these days.

I would welcome any and all comments and sugestions, keeping in mind that we have (in this dream-vehicle) $30,000.00 to spend... less, if we can get it done for that.

I am going to suggest a 1965 Valiant V-whatever, as a starting point. This has to be a pump-gas motor, with 400 flywheel horsepower as its goal.

That doesn't sound like much, but this car will only weigh 2,900 pounds, probably, and that's a whole lot less than the 4,200-pounds of a new Challeger. To equal that horsepower-per-pound, the Challenger would need 580 horsepower... a lot, on pump gas.

My personal choice for a power-plant for this project would be a turbocharged slant six, since it is readily obtainable, cheap to build, will easily make 400-horsepower on pump gas, and is lighter than any of the V-8 options, although, a 360 with aluminum heads and an aluminum intake would be close...

This engine should live forever on 12-pounds of boost, with a Snowperformance alcohol-water injector and a Spearco intercooler.

The transmission would be a 2.74:1 low gear Mopar, A-500 4-speed overdrive automatic transmission and a 3.23:1 rer axle ratio (giving a 2.58:1 final drive cruise ratio for the highway.)

The 8.25" unit is lighter and has less parasitic drag (and, is cheaper) than the 8.75" rear. The drop-out feature is not needed here, since the turbo'd slant six actually performs better with rear axle ratios in the 2's... go figure.

A 3,000-rpm Hughes converter and a carbon-fiber driveshaft would be nice...

We'll talk about the engine in the next installment. This is gonna be fun!!!!

 

[Darter6]

Truth be told, I think it is very do-able with that budget.Doing most of the work yourself and starting with a very clean body and good paint that has all trim and parts in place. Nothing worse than finding a car for $500 and then spending $1000's looking for costly small parts.Go for it. It will be more fun and will not "de-pre-she-ate"(spellin close enough) like a new car.

 

[Bill Dedman]

Truth be told, I think it is very do-able with that budget.Doing most of the work yourself and starting with a very clean body and good paint that has all trim and parts in place. Nothing worse than finding a car for $500 and then spending $1000's looking for costly small parts.Go for it. It will be more fun and will not "de-pre-she-ate"(spellin close enough) like a new car.

To re-iterate, I do NOT have $30,000.00 loose change to spend on this project, having just finished a race car with my partner, Freddie Nielsen. But although out of funds, that didn't stop my thought-process, so this project will be one of "ideas and concepts," that might be do-able for someone a little better financially endowed... or, maybe just something interesting to talk about... who knows?

I said we'd talk about engines, today, but I really don't have the time to go into a discussion about mechanical particulars right now, so, that will have to wait until tomorrow, probably. But, anyone who has an opinion, information to share, or experience with a streetable, 400-horsepower motor that could fill the bill with this project (pump gas/good driveability/good reliability/reasonable cost,) is encouraged to chime in with suggestions and ideas.

Remember, it's a "dream car" with a $30,000.00 budget,.... so there are LOTS of possibilities!

I chose a '65 Valiant because I like that car... coulda been a '65 Barracuda, but I wanted to keep it that size car (106"-wheelbase) and make it as light as practical...


What are YOUR thoughts???

 

[younggun2.0]

To re-iterate, I do NOT have $30,000.00 loose change to spend on this project, having just finished a race car with my partner, Freddie Nielsen, but although out of funds, that didn't stop my thought-process, so this project will be one of ideas and concepts, that might be do-able for someone a little better financially endowed... or, maybe just something to talk about... who knows?

I said we'd talk about engines, today, but I really don't have the time to go into a discussion about mechanical particulars right now, so, that will have to wait until tomorrow, probably. But, anyone who has an opinion, information to share, or experience with a 400-horsepower motor that could fill the bill with this project (pump gas/good driveability/good reliability/reasonable cost,) is encouraged to chime in with suggestions and ideas.

Remember, it's a "dream car" with a $30,000.00 budget,.... so there are LOTS of possibilities!


this is my project: 65 valiant. getting 5.9 magnum and 904 auto. 3.31 rear gears with 26" tall tires. junk yard 360 magnum with slightly upgraded cam, air gap knock-off intake. new valve springs, 650 dp holley and tti headers.

this car will be deep into the 13s in full street trim. will be my new daily driver this spring. this car will wipe the floor with the new srt8 chally.



I chose a '65 Valiant because I like that car... coulda been a '65 Barracuda, but I wanted to keep it that size car (106"-wheelbase) and as light as practical...


What are YOUR thoughts???

i think a mild 360 magnum engine with an aftermarket fuel injection like mega squirt could make 400+ hp pretty easily and still be very dependable. also need to remember that the new challengers weight over 4200lbs. a small block 65 valiant is going to be under 3000lbs. that will make the car very very quick with 400 hp. i think a stock long block magnum in that chassis will walk all over a new challenger. with all the overdrive transmissions on the market now you could get some fairly decent mileage as well.

 

[Bill Dedman]

i think a mild 360 magnum engine with an aftermarket fuel injection like mega squirt could make 400+ hp pretty easily and still be very dependable. also need to remember that the new challengers weight over 4200lbs. a small block 65 valiant is going to be under 3000lbs. that will make the car very very quick with 400 hp. i think a stock long block magnum in that chassis will walk all over a new challenger. with all the overdrive transmissions on the market now you could get some fairly decent mileage as well.

Good points, all. That car in the picture (although, a near-identical '64) is exactly the raw material that could be transformed into a do-it-yourself project that would pay big dividends in the "THIS IS SOOOOO COOL" department, and be a worthwhile activity!

Thanks for your comments!!!:cheers:

Nice car, BTW...

 

[rmchrgr]

Magnum-based 408 w. serp belt, check.

FAST EFI, Aeromotive in-tank pump, check.

Passon 833 5 speed OD, check.

Stock style suspension with 'better' parts - sway bars, quick ratio power steering, (see serp belt above) radial tires, springs, shocks etc., check.

Updated electrical system - relays, blade fuses etc., check.


Our work is done here.

 

[Bill Dedman]

Magnum-based 408 w. serp belt, check.

FAST EFI, Aeromotive in-tank pump, check.

Passon 833 5 speed OD, check.

Stock style suspension with 'better' parts - sway bars, quick ratio power steering, (see serp belt above) radial tires, springs, shocks etc., check.

Updated electrical system - relays, blade fuses etc., check.


Our work is done here.

Sweet...

 

[75slant6]

Stock style suspension with 'better' parts - sway bars, quick ratio power steering, (see serp belt above) radial tires, springs, shocks etc., check.

Or... Forget the factory front end and put an RMS Alter-K-tion up front! That'd give you adjustable coil overs, bigger brakes and rack and pinion steering to make it handle as good as a new chally.


Bill, your first post basically described my dream DD! Only I'd be using a 70-71 2dr Dart with a turbo'd / backed by a GM 200r4 trans and have the alterK front end and rollin' on 9x17 front and 10.5x17 rear mustang Bullitt wheels.

 

[rmchrgr]

Or... Forget the factory front end and put an RMS Alter-K-tion up front! That'd give you adjustable coil overs, bigger brakes and rack and pinion steering to make it handle as good as a new chally.

You don't need any of that. If I had all the money in the world, I still wouldn't put one of those in my car. Though the torsion bar front end is an older design, it works pretty damn well. Plus, there was years and years of empirical, fact-based research and development done by the factory to achieve a decent handling car in a variety of situations. And that was prior to putting those parts into service which actually lasted for decades. Why re-invent the wheel, even if it is a 'dream car'?

If you think about it, the RMS stuff is probably best suited for drag cars that have been converted to coil overs. There is no proven benefit to it on the street over a quality front end rebuild.

Talk to guys that know their way around a road course type car, they'll tell you that you don't need an AlterKtion type deal and that the OE stuff works well, albeit with some upgraded parts.

backed by a GM 200r4 trans and have the alterK front end and rollin' on 9x17 front and 10.5x17 rear mustang Bullitt wheels.

Awesome! Yeah, lets put giant, ugly, late-model Mustang wheels on the car and while we're at it, somehow install a crappy GM slushbox in the car. And all in one sentence! Just curious, what actual benefit would that particular GM trans have over any Mopar passenger car transmission from the last 50 years?

No mention of how to make all that Brand X crap work in a '65 A body either.

Have fun with that.

 

[75slant6]

Awesome! Yeah, lets put giant, ugly, late-model Mustang wheels on the car and while we're at it, somehow install a crappy GM slushbox in the car. And all in one sentence! Just curious, what actual benefit would that particular GM trans have over any Mopar passenger car transmission from the last 50 years?

No mention of how to make all that Brand X crap work in a '65 A body either.

Have fun with that.

Yes! As a matter of fact, lets! I happen to love the bullitt wheels and would put them on my dream dd. that is in fact what this thread is about. Thats MY personal preference. don't like it? That's fine. You can have your own preference. I won't slam yours so don't slam mine.

And as far as the trans goes, good luck gettin any OD Mopar trans other than an 833 in an Abody without major tunnel work, the 200s fit with only flattening the pinch weld a little. Also the swap has been done b4, there's parts to make it work, there's a reason it's called hot rodding. Everybody has their own likes, interests and dreams, how boring life would be if they were all the same.

You say these parts are crap but somehow I think you're opinion would be different had Mopar put these parts in their cars.

 

[75slant6]

I forgot this was specified as a Gen-II build. Mine would all be in a Duster or 70-71 Dart. 200 fitment might be tighter on the early A's. don't know as I haven't research the swap into an early A

 

[Bill Dedman]

I forgot this was specified as a Gen-II build. Mine would all be in a Duster or 70-71 Dart. 200 fitment might be tighter on the early A's. don't know as I haven't research the swap into an early A

I specified a Gen. II build for a couple of reasons.... They are measurably lighter (than a Duster) and have, possibly due to their narrower front ends, a more maneuverable "feel" to them in tight quarters.. maybe it's a subjective thing. I had a '64 Valiant 2-door with a 340, and currently, have a '72 Valiant with a 360 and the difference in "feel" is considerable. The '64 felt like I was driving IT... the '72 feels like it's driving ME... Hard to explain... That '64 would go around corners like it was on rails (and, had NO anti-roll bar, front or rear)... This '72 came with air-conditioning (factory air; factory three- eighteen,) and has the 340 torsion bars from the factory, with an OEM front torsion bar. Doesn't help... that '64 would run rings around it without trying.


I want THAT for my dream car

More later...

Bill:coffee2:

 

[Bill Dedman]

Just curious, what actual benefit would that particular GM trans have over any Mopar passenger car transmission from the last 50 years?

.I can think of a couple: First off, if you want an overdriven 4th gear, the Mopar A-500 is the obvious choice (no 2.74 low gear OEM for the A-five-eighteen,) and the overdrive unit that is part of the Mopar transmission is so bulky that it requires major surgery on the rear-mount/cross-member and the floor pan in an A-body. It can be done, but it's a hell of a lot of work. The 200R-4 is the transmission of choice for the turbo Buick crowd, and can be made to hold a LOT of horsepower. It would be my choice. That is, if the necessary adapters are available.

Secondly, the 4th-gear setup in the A-500 can be problematic and could be a reliability issue, as I see it. That might or might not be a factor in the decision on which transmission to run. The A-518 in my Dakota is going on 220,000-miles (with a rebuild by the previous owner at 65,000-miles,) and shows no signs of any problems, yet. It's a 1992 318 Magnum.

 

[273]

I was thing of a similar build down the road for myself I miss my 65 4 door valiant beater that I drove for 7 years. I would go with turbo 273 its only 48 cid more and so much more head flow potential, you'll end up with more NA potential what the car will be using 99% of the time more total hp potential and similar fuel mileage potential with those gearings.

 

[273]

I 2nd 3rd modified stock suspension

 

[Bill Dedman]

I was thing of a similar build down the road for myself I miss my 65 4 door valiant beater that I drove for 7 years. I would go with turbo 273 its only 48 cid more and so much more head flow potential, you'll end up with more NA potential what the car will be using 99% of the time more total hp potential and similar fuel mileage potential with those gearings.

Thanks for the input! The engine question really comes down to personal choice, because 400 horsepower is so easy to come-by in a variety of ways, nowadays, it's more a matter of what you want than the most efficient, or best-sounding choice.

I could be very happy with a normally-aspirated 360 Magnum, running just a healthy cam, a Holley 4bbl, some headers and a 6,500 red line. I think such a combination might yield 400+ HP, but might loose something to the slant six in mileage and driveability. There; no question that a turbo'd 273 would make plenty of power for this application, but I think it might be more expensive, initially, to build than the six... BUT, maybe not... we'd have to try both.

Interesting possibilities!

 

[Bill Dedman]

I 2nd 3rd modified stock suspension

Interesting; I didn't expect resistance to the "Alterkation" setup... I'm surely interested in hearing more about those two options!

 

[273]

Interesting; I didn't expect resistance to the "Alterkation" setup... I'm surely interested in hearing more about those two options!

I just its overkill with small benefits over a well setup stock, racks and coilovers and tube k frame and LCA's
Offer mainly weight savings and better packaging.
Upper control arm is the one that effects the suspension geometry, so tubular uppers, B body disk brakes, with shock, sway and torsion bars up grades should be more than enough for a daily driver with decent handle ability.

 

[rmchrgr]

Just curious, what actual benefit would that particular GM trans have over any Mopar passenger car transmission from the last 50 years?

.I can think of a couple: First off, if you want an overdriven 4th gear, the Mopar A-500 is the obvious choice (no 2.74 low gear OEM for the A-five-eighteen,) and the overdrive unit that is part of the Mopar transmission is so bulky that it requires major surgery on the rear-mount/cross-member and the floor pan in an A-body. It can be done, but it's a hell of a lot of work. The 200R-4 is the transmission of choice for the turbo Buick crowd, and can be made to hold a LOT of horsepower. It would be my choice. That is, if the necessary adapters are available.

Secondly, the 4th-gear setup in the A-500 can be problematic and could be a reliability issue, as I see it. That might or might not be a factor in the decision on which transmission to run. The A-518 in my Dakota is going on 220,000-miles (with a rebuild by the previous owner at 65,000-miles,) and shows no signs of any problems, yet. It's a 1992 318 Magnum.

My daily driver is an '08 Mazdaspeed 3. It's a turbo 2.3 liter 4 with a 6 speed stick. That car would be worthless with an automatic.

If you do realize this buildup, I would hope you would choose a stick. A manual trans provides a connection to the car that you don't get with an automatic.

Automatics are for old ladies no matter what brand.

 

[75slant6]

The 200R-4 is the transmission of choice for the turbo Buick crowd, and can be made to hold a LOT of horsepower. It would be my choice. That is, if the necessary adapters are available.

Bill, checkout wilcap.com he has adapters to bolt a 200 or 700r4 to a sb listed on his website and if you call him he can make one to bolt them to a slant.

 

[RedFish]

I cant imagine getting modern vehicle handling, braking, performance, dependability, etc... from a classic. The aftermarket vendors love to see us try.

 

[Darter6]

I get it now,, this is a dream build. I have those all the time. I like your thoughts, Bill.You are not trying to re-invent the wheel.Good plan.

 

[Bill Dedman]

My daily driver is an '08 Mazdaspeed 3. It's a turbo 2.3 liter 4 with a 6 speed stick. That car would be worthless with an automatic.

If you do realize this buildup, I would hope you would choose a stick. A manual trans provides a connection to the car that you don't get with an automatic.

Automatics are for old ladies no matter what brand.

I can tell you weren't around for the Supercharged Gasser wars of the 1960's.

The absolute fastest Gas Coupes had 4-speed Hydra-matics behind Gen. 1 and II Chrysler Hemis... NOBODY ran a manual transmission in those cars... Why? They were faster with the Hydros... and, the automatics would run reliably, for round-after-round... And, after several years of this, it was discovered that Torqueflites (with the new technology in converters) were even quicker than the Hydramatics... You can look it up.

I have been drag-racing since 1955 and have NEVER owned or raced a drag car with anything BUT an automatic. Turbocharged cars seem to like to be held back, like a fuel motor. Building boost under no load on the starting line is difficult (lots easier to stall-start, I think) and unless you flat-shift the transmission thru the gears, you stand to lose boost while the clutch is in.

My opinion (for what it's worth) is that a turbocharged car will always be faster/quicker with an automatic...

Bear in mind that the foregoing is JUST MY OPINION... nothing else!

YOUR mileage may vary... and, probably will.

 

[Bill Dedman]

I get it now,, this is a dream build. I have those all the time. I like your thoughts, Bill.You are not trying to re-invent the wheel.Good plan.

Thanks; it is in fact, just that... a dream build, but, fun to talk about, I think!!!!

 

[rmchrgr]

I can tell you weren't around for the Supercharged Gasser wars of the 1960's.

The absolute fastest Gas Coupes had 4-speed Hydra-matics behind Gen. 1 and II Chrysler Hemis... NOBODY ran a manual transmission in those cars... Why? They were faster with the Hydros... and, the automatics would run reliably, for round-after-round... And, after several years of this, it was discovered that Torqueflites (with the new technology in converters) were even quicker than the Hydramatics... You can look it up.

yeah, that's all fine and good but seriously, how many regular guys drove their street cars around with a B&M Hydro Stick? I'm sure there were a few lunatics out there that did but I'd have a hard time believing those units were common in 'daily driven' street cars. Even if I wasn't around, I know enough history to be confident that was not the case.

In any event, watch this video[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StGqWMj_4ZQ"] here [/ame]and let me know if you think this car would be quicker with an auto.

And while we're on the subject of '60s shift-it-yourself automatics, let's not forget the temperamental Clutch Flite units. Weren't those an attempt at making an auto behave more like a stick?

Obviously this is your dream build thread so if you want an automatic, knock yourself out. For me, a 4 or 5 speed, whether it's OD or not would be my preference on the street. An automatic is just boring, plain and simple.

But just to prove that I am not 'against' auto transmissions in any way, I have a 904 in my Duster with a T.A. forward pattern valve body, no LBA. Its truly awesome when you shift it at 7,000 rpm but when you're putting around at part throttle, it kinda sucks.

I have been drag-racing since 1955 and have NEVER owned or raced a drag car with anything BUT an automatic.

Are we building a daily driver or a drag car?

Turbocharged cars seem to like to be held back, like a fuel motor. Building boost under no load on the starting line is difficult (lots easier to stall-start, I think) and unless you flat-shift the transmission thru the gears, you stand to lose boost while the clutch is in.

Same question, are you driving on the street with your foot in the radiator or just regular part-throttle driving? It's hard to imagine that you would notice any significant turbo lag on the street.

Again, my DD Mazda is a turbo with a 6 speed stick. There's no lag. It's even factory de-tuned through second gear to prevent torque steer on hard launches but still, no lag that I can tell.

My opinion (for what it's worth) is that a turbocharged car will always be faster/quicker with an automatic...

That's probably true if you're drag racing it. There's a cushion in the driveline to make up for whatever turbo lag exists in the combo and would certainly help to make launches more consistent. But, there are plenty of Supercharged cars that use a Lenco... again, are we talking a 2,000 monster here or a daily driver?

Bear in mind that the foregoing is JUST MY OPINION... nothing else!

YOUR mileage may vary... and, probably will.

Yep.