Used Diamond W2 Aluminum Heads Yay or Nay?

[yellow rose]

Thanks for the replies YR. I'll look into those clutch guys if I decide to keep the 4 speed.

@PRH It really depends on if I decide to try to make this my drag car/street car or just a dedicated street car, or just a dedicated drag car. If its going to be a dedicated drag car I'll put an automatic in it and sell my 4 speed. But if its going to be a street car and or a street/strip car I'd like to keep the stick in it (which I know will slow me down a little in the 1/4 but will be more fun on the street).

My goal would be as close to mid 10's with full steel body and a super stock looking interior (I've got Gary Ball super stock seats w/aluminum brackets, no back seat, and an 8 point rollcage that are going in this winter).

HP goal would be 600 to 650+ on pump gas if possible (sounds like it would be on W2's with my 408). Currently I'm running a scat forged stroker kit on the engine with forged Icon Pistons. Comp Ratio figured out is 10.22:1 but the shop I talked to said we could bump it to 10.9:1 and still be safe for pump gas if we up my cam more. Currently 244/248 @ .050 w .575/.585 Lift at 108 LSA. He suggested a cam that I can't remember the specs on but was in the 260 @ 050 I believe.

I was never considering W2's and had always assumed I'd just have my Eddy heads ported and milled to up my compression ratio a little. That was until I ran across this package deal on the W2 stuff and realized I could pick it up (heads, intake, and TTI W2 headers) and sell my Eddy heads and spend half of what I was going to have to spend having my Eddy's ported and swapping out the intake and getting new headers for the Eddys all while making more power then the ported Eddy heads would make.

Cost Breakdown of Eddy vs the used W2's:
To get my Eddy heads ported w/valve job and milling: $1200 to $1600 (I've checked with several vendors on here as well as a local shop that has done work for several racers I know). Plus new valve springs (say 250-300), plus new headers (TTI so 950 bucks), plus new single plane intake (Eddy Victor likely) $383 Total: $2783 to $3233

To Get these W2 Heads (assuming they test out ok): $2500
TTI W2 Headers: Included
W2 Ported Intake: Included
Had valve job and has solid flat tappet springs w/all associated hardware (which I would have my head shop verify): Included
Rocker Arms/shafts/stands etc: Included
Sell my Eddy heads, Comp Magnum Rockers, and Eddy Air Gap Intake: -$1000 to -$1200 (I'd have to see what it would actually all sell for but just as a rough estimate)
Total: $1300 to 1500 for W2 head conversion


I guess I'm just trying to talk through all my options and get others opinions. Until my clutch blew I wasn't thinking I was going to do heads or a possible trans swap etc. But being it happened and I've got my motor and trans out of the car now I figure I may as well do anything that I can think of that I might want to do while I've got everything apart.

I need to decide if a dedicated track car is what I want or a dedicated street car or something in between. Regardless when I look at the numbers it does seem like if I want to do some sort of upper engine modifications the W2s would be the route that gives me the most HP potential and does it the cheapest because its a complete kit and I can sell my current parts.

Decisions decisions... I just wish the wife would say I could buy a dedicated drag car and then I'd make the Dart a dedicated street car and not worry about getting more than the ~500 hp its currently got. I'd just put a new clutch in and call it a day but so far the wife hasn't given me the blessing on getting a second car. Something about we already have 4 cars and only a 2 car garage lol...

FWIW I damn sure wouldn't use any less than 11.5:1 compression. I'm at 11.08:1 on junky iron heads. I may put the thinner gaskets on to get it to 11.25:1. There is no reason to go that low.

I'm old enough to remember that Crower, way back in the day offered a complete kit to run 12.5:1 on pump gas. IIRC, it came with cam, pistons and rings. By the time my friend and I were ready to give it a try, Crower no longer made it. That would have been 1984ish.

So I called Crower and had a long talk. They would offer the cam to us, but nothing else. And Dave wasn't real thrilled about that, because most guys didn't follow their rules. They would change the cam, or advance it and it would kill the engine. Spark plug selection was big on their list of things done wrong. Ring seal was a big deal. A little oil past the rings and it was all over.

We started rounding up the parts, got the head work done and finished up his original 396 4 speed camaro. My buddy went out of town for two weeks on his job and never came back. He got killed down somewhere in the middle of the Nevada desert. Got some chemicals on him, and it literally ate him up from the inside out.

After that, I gave up on the idea of doing it with a Chevy, but I've run 11:1 compression on most everything. My W2 engine will be 12:1 and that's on iron heads. I have about 98% of the parts for it. Just need to find my gumption.

 

[PRH]

I’d be more inclined to sell the RPM heads and manifold, keep the rockers...... and buy the TF heads and manifold.

 

[68Dart500]

I’d be more inclined to sell the RPM heads and manifold, keep the rockers...... and buy the TF heads and manifold.

I thought about that because they are a great looking head but when I talked to IMM his recent 408 build barely made more hp than my Eddy head 408 made so unless I had those ported I wouldn't really be getting much of an upgrade in terms of power. As far as I know no one has taken these and ported them beyond how they come from the factory or have you heard of someone doing it yet?

 

[70aarcuda]

If you look at the flow numbers of the TF from the factory...and compare them to the numbers of a ported Eddy head.....not much different...the TF will save you money.

 

[PRH]

Here’s my take on the perception of the TF heads, compared to the RPM’s.......

Unfortunately, the SB TF head didn’t get to be highlighted in the public eye on the same type of build the BB TF heads were used on with the 470 motor that Andy F built that got all the attention right at the beginning.
That was essentially a pump gas bracket race build with a solid roller cam.
The only builds I’ve seen in the pubic eye so far with the SB heads have been street friendly builds with hyd roller cams.

Shortly after Andy had already done a round or two of testing with the TF BB heads, making great power....... Steve Dulcich did an article with them using a basic street 440 short block(2355 pistons, etc), under .600 lift, fairly short duration solid roller cam........ and the numbers were, well...... imo, somewhat underwhelming.
Had that been the first test everyone had seen....... they wouldn’t have been as instantly touted as “the” street/strip head for the BB Mopar.

I’ve dynoed a fairly basic bracket race SB build years ago with 280cfm RPM heads that made 585hp....... it the TF heads flowed closer to 300cfm, I can’t see how 600hp wouldn’t be within reach.

Hell, Brett Miller made close to 800hp recently with Indybrocks.
That would have been considered impossible not too long ago.

 

[rumblefish360]

Brett does well when twisting out power. He knows the induction system, camshafts etc.... he gets it.

Thing is.... Most want a street strip build that uses pump gas & a dual plane.

 

[stixx]

Here’s my take on the perception of the TF heads, compared to the RPM’s.......

Unfortunately, the SB TF head didn’t get to be highlighted in the public eye on the same type of build the BB TF heads were used on with the 470 motor that Andy F built that got all the attention right at the beginning.
That was essentially a pump gas bracket race build with a solid roller cam.
The only builds I’ve seen in the pubic eye so far with the SB heads have been street friendly builds with hyd roller cams.

Shortly after Andy had already done a round or two of testing with the TF BB heads, making great power....... Steve Dulcich did an article with them using a basic street 440 short block(2355 pistons, etc), under .600 lift, fairly short duration solid roller cam........ and the numbers were, well...... imo, somewhat underwhelming.
Had that been the first test everyone had seen....... they wouldn’t have been as instantly touted as “the” street/strip head for the BB Mopar.

I’ve dynoed a fairly basic bracket race SB build years ago with 280cfm RPM heads that made 585hp....... it the TF heads flowed closer to 300cfm, I can’t see how 600hp wouldn’t be within reach.

Hell, Brett Miller made close to 800hp recently with Indybrocks.
That would have been considered impossible not too long ago.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^This. Pure wisdom.
What's written on the internet is considered the holy grail instantly nowadays. One single bad/unfavourable experience can almost kill a product (I remember the Rod Bloomer heads).

 

[PRH]

One single bad/unfavourable experience can almost kill a product (I remember the Rod Bloomer heads).

A lot depends on what happens after that negative experience by the user/reviewer.
I was talking with Brett about the Bloomer deal.
My .02 was that I would have taken those very heads that came off the underachiever, and put them on a 408/416 and seen what I got out of them.

There is one similarity between the Bloomer heads and the TF SB heads........ neither of the two had been tried on a motor by the manufacturer prior to being released for sale.

Unfortunately, his window of opportunity has closed somewhat with the release of the TF’s as complete heads for similar pricing as the Bloomer heads bare.

 

[SandyDoug]

I thought about that because they are a great looking head but when I talked to IMM his recent 408 build barely made more hp than my Eddy head 408 made so unless I had those ported I wouldn't really be getting much of an upgrade in terms of power. As far as I know no one has taken these and ported them beyond how they come from the factory or have you heard of someone doing it yet?

How did your build end up ?