Used Diamond W2 Aluminum Heads Yay or Nay?

[flyfish]

I guess it kinda depends on what you are wanting as far as power, and how much you want to spend. I believe you would spend considerably less porting the Eddy's than switching over to W2's. Like I said, it really depends on your goals.

For what its worth, my 408 with "stage 2" ported Edelbrocks, 1.5 comp rockers, solid cam, Victor, 950 carb, 727, 4.10 gears, runs low 10's in my 3250lbs Barracuda.

 

[PRH]

$2500 for a used top end that includes two 20-30 year old heads that have had welding repairs done, and no replacement heads are available if I needed one?

That’s a definite “no thank you” from me.

I like new stuff.

I’d sell the RPM’s and buy the TF’s.

 

[RustyRatRod]

No flow numbers but I'd be having them pressure tested and flowed before purchasing. Sounds like the guy is willing to drop them off at the place i suggested as long as I'm paying for the testing.

The intake is a ported matched Holley strip dominator and the headers are TTI ceramic coated. Evidently it was all in a 10 second 340 Duster.

He did send me a receipt for pressure testing, a valve job, and welding repair on these that he just had done. Evidently they had to fix a spot in 2 combustion chambers. Also he said there are some tiny cracks from some of the intake valves to the spark plug holes but the shop that pressure tested them said they were ok. Which is one more reason why I want the shop I talked to to look at them. Supposedly those cracks are common?

That sounds reasonable. If you're willin to foot the bill go for it. They'll probably check out good if he's willing to do that.

 

[moper]

I'm at a crossroads with my upgrade path for my 408 stroker. I can take my Edelbrock Performer RPM heads and have them ported, new valve springs, rockers, and a new set of headers (currently have some junk Hedman 1 5/8).

Or I can get a set of W2 Diamond Aluminum heads rectangular port that have been ported and come complete with valves, rocker stands, iron adjustable rocker arms, and springs. Valve job was just done on the heads and it comes with a ported intake and a set of W2 headers for 25xx.

I realize I'll spend 15xx-2k having my Eddy heads ported, plus 1.6 rockers (I have 1.5 Comp rollers now), new valves, and a set of bigger headers (likely TTI). Plus I'd have to buy a different intake if I want to get away from my perfomer Air Gap.

So all that being said, would you go to W2 heads if given the choice? If you would go with W2 aluminum heads would you go with used W2 aluminum heads or go for new ones (assuming you can buy them new that is)? Is 2500 a decent price for all that stuff assuming they are in good shape? Does anything need to be done to my block to switch over to W2's?

From what I've read these are (or at least the iron version) a really good head for big power? I may ask the guy if I could have the heads checked out at a reputable local shop to pressure test them and flow bench them to see if they are screwed up or not.

Choice depends on what you want out of the engine. Edelbrocks and LA based replacement heads can make more power than most street cars will ever really use, without the big costs of race porting. But the W2 style heads can exceed that with further expense. Iwouldn;t buy a set of used W2s. I wouldn't invest in anything iron at this point, and I don't want to pay for something, then test and find some other well meaning dude with a grinder made them bad. That's fairly common with W2s...
Go through a dealer and get the Indy -1s if you want a W2 design. I wouldn't have Indy port them but I'm fairly sure others have programs for them, or the dealer you buy them from could probably do a better job. Indy's labor sucks all around.

 

[Krooser]

For all out power nothing beats the W-2's on a small block. If I had some extra cash I'd buy those heads in a heartbeat... and put them on my 40 year old block. Matched set!!!!

I bought a blown 383 small block without a second thought. This was a $15,000 engine that I paid $2500 for... lots of good parts in it that I could not duplicate for the money. I'll have about another $1200-1400 in it after the block is sleeved (the crank work is done) and I get new pistons. Might save a buck if the engine shop can find a set of mayching used slugs from one of their customers.

The shop built several of these motors in the 90's and couple of their old customers have hung on to their old spares. They used Ross 2618 pistons back then. Might luck out.

As far as using used parts every engine ever run is running on used parts...

 

[68Dart500]

Thanks for all the replies so far folks. Still trying to decide if I want to go that route or not. Here's a few pics of the heads:

 

[yellow rose]

If they pressure test they should be ok. Also CC the chambers. One on each head. I don't remember the Batten W2 having that chamber. Some one may have milled the crap out of them. It makes the decks thin and if the CR gets high enough it may be tough to keep head gaskets sealed.

One other thing. This I learned the hear way and only mention this so others don't do the same.

Look at the fuel pattern in that chamber. I hate that combustion chamber. It's a royal PITA. I can also see where all the material has been remove around the guide. This makes the chamber issue way worse. I also expect that that head has a 2.08 valve, and the bowls will be at least 92% of the valve diameter. In that case, I would use a good 50 degree valve job on both the intake and exhaust and don't make the port any bigger than it is. It's too big as it is now.

Just my random thoughts from looking at your pictures. I wouldn't let the chamber issues and porting sway you much, unless the decks are real thin.

 

[Garrett Ellison]

I guess it depends on how much it's street or race if I would use that much cylinder head, I would set the dividing line at 50% with that much head. To me, that's a domed piston balls to the wall race head.

 

[mbaird]

Those ports will want Cubes and RPMs

 

[mbaird]

Or a blower

 

[yellow rose]

Those ports will want Cubes and RPMs

Not really.

That head on 340 inches with a decent solid is maybe, maybe 7200 RPM. Maybe.

A big BIG roller with a TR to get over 8k.

BTDT

 

[68Dart500]

If they pressure test they should be ok. Also CC the chambers. One on each head. I don't remember the Batten W2 having that chamber. Some one may have milled the crap out of them. It makes the decks thin and if the CR gets high enough it may be tough to keep head gaskets sealed.

One other thing. This I learned the hear way and only mention this so others don't do the same.

Look at the fuel pattern in that chamber. I hate that combustion chamber. It's a royal PITA. I can also see where all the material has been remove around the guide. This makes the chamber issue way worse. I also expect that that head has a 2.08 valve, and the bowls will be at least 92% of the valve diameter. In that case, I would use a good 50 degree valve job on both the intake and exhaust and don't make the port any bigger than it is. It's too big as it is now.

Just my random thoughts from looking at your pictures. I wouldn't let the chamber issues and porting sway you much, unless the decks are real thin.

Thanks for the thoughts. I will definitely get them checked out and pressure tested, valve guides checked, and measured before I buy them.

I believe he said its a 2.08 valve. I'll make sure they check the deck thickness too.

I guess it depends on how much it's street or race if I would use that much cylinder head, I would set the dividing line at 50% with that much head. To me, that's a domed piston balls to the wall race head.

Therein lies the dilemma. My car is in a grey area right now and I'm not sure what direction to go so I've definitely got some thinking to do before I buy anything or have my old heads ported. Do I make it a full on drag car, do I just make it a street car, or a combo of the two like it currently is... It seems like I have to compromise to have it do both and its costing more to try and do it too. With it having a 4 speed and 540 ft/lbs of torque and being mini tubbed it destroyed my last clutch within a year with only going to the track a couple times so that's why the motor and trans is currently out and why I'm even considering either porting my heads or buying these W2's.

If I go the combo street/strip car I would either port my Eddy's or buy these W2's in which case I really should sell my 23 spline and get an 18 spline. If I go full race I'd likely sell my 23 spline and convert it to an auto. Still would be getting the eddy heads ported or get the W2's with that option. Last but not least option is I make it just be a street car in which case I just replace my clutch, keep the 23 spline, and not upgrade the heads or switch them out but then I'd have to start saving up for a separate drag car which might take years and years and years to save up for :/. decisions decisions

 

[yellow rose]

Thanks for the thoughts. I will definitely get them checked out and pressure tested, valve guides checked, and measured before I buy them.

I believe he said its a 2.08 valve. I'll make sure they check the deck thickness too.





Therein lies the dilemma. My car is in a grey area right now and I'm not sure what direction to go so I've definitely got some thinking to do before I buy anything or have my old heads ported. Do I make it a full on drag car, do I just make it a street car, or a combo of the two like it currently is... It seems like I have to compromise to have it do both and its costing more to try and do it too. With it having a 4 speed and 540 ft/lbs of torque and being mini tubbed it destroyed my last clutch within a year with only going to the track a couple times so that's why the motor and trans is currently out and why I'm even considering either porting my heads or buying these W2's.

If I go the combo street/strip car I would either port my Eddy's or buy these W2's in which case I really should sell my 23 spline and get an 18 spline. If I go full race I'd likely sell my 23 spline and convert it to an auto. Still would be getting the eddy heads ported or get the W2's with that option. Last but not least option is I make it just be a street car in which case I just replace my clutch, keep the 23 spline, and not upgrade the heads or switch them out but then I'd have to start saving up for a separate drag car which might take years and years and years to save up for :/. decisions decisions

First off, unless your car is morbidly obese, and you are dropping the hammer at 8k plus, no way on this green earth do you need an 18 split input. Jaunt don't need it.

You need the correct clutch. I have preached this for years and years. In fact, I just watched a video the other day about a ford guy with a high 11 second car test between a 5 speed and a PG. no matter what, the stick was quicker and faster.

As is typical, they used about the most junk clutch you can buy and it showed in the video. That clutch beat the car and the tire like they stole something. They were wasting another tenth and half to two tenths. Easily. Spend money on a clutch and your world will change.

Those heads won't know if it's on the street or the strip. Sit down with your engine builder and discuss what you want. I've posted the pictures on my heads on here with that same port. So I know what it is, and what it isn't.

That head, on 340 inches at 7000 RPM, done correctly will easily push 580-600 HP. Easily. On flat solid lifters. Maybe 630-640 with a GOOD solid roller.

If I was doing it, you be at damn near (and maybe at) 12:1 compression. I'd weld and fix your intake, and make and weld up a top to make it Dominator flange and hook you up with a custom Dominator and watch it ring the bell all day long. On pump gas. Like falling off a log.

That's what they are capable of. If (and it's a big IF) you sit down and make a plan, and then stick to it. And I forgot, you need quality headers.

You'd be surprised how easily it would drive on the street and turn heads at the track.

 

[68Dart500]

First off, unless your car is morbidly obese, and you are dropping the hammer at 8k plus, no way on this green earth do you need an 18 split input. Jaunt don't need it.

You need the correct clutch. I have preached this for years and years. In fact, I just watched a video the other day about a ford guy with a high 11 second car test between a 5 speed and a PG. no matter what, the stick was quicker and faster.

As is typical, they used about the most junk clutch you can buy and it showed in the video. That clutch beat the car and the tire like they stole something. They were wasting another tenth and half to two tenths. Easily. Spend money on a clutch and your world will change.

Those heads won't know if it's on the street or the strip. Sit down with your engine builder and discuss what you want. I've posted the pictures on my heads on here with that same port. So I know what it is, and what it isn't.

That head, on 340 inches at 7000 RPM, done correctly will easily push 580-600 HP. Easily. On flat solid lifters. Maybe 630-640 with a GOOD solid roller.

If I was doing it, you be at damn near (and maybe at) 12:1 compression. I'd weld and fix your intake, and make and weld up a top to make it Dominator flange and hook you up with a custom Dominator and watch it ring the bell all day long. On pump gas. Like falling off a log.

That's what they are capable of. If (and it's a big IF) you sit down and make a plan, and then stick to it. And I forgot, you need quality headers.

You'd be surprised how easily it would drive on the street and turn heads at the track.

The clutch I've been looking at after talking to Ram and Mcloed is Rams 10.5 twin disc. Supposedly that's their suggestion for the best compromise between street and strip. It's like 1500 bucks for the clutch and flywheel combo. Still researching clutch options though but I'm certainly not afraid to spend the money on quality. Already destroyed the centerforce dual friction so not wanting a repeat of that.

As for those w2's they'd be going on my 408 stroker so I'd imagine those big ports would be ok due to my engines size?

What are the advantages of milling off the 4150 flange on the strip dominator and welding a dominator flange on it? I had originally hoped i could use a Holley 850 dp that I've got sitting on a shelf.

If I get the w2's it comes with TTI 1 7/8 ceramic coated headers and a ported matched strip dominator intake.

Here's pictures of the rockers and intake. Oh and question, what are the two petcocks on the back of the intake for?

 

[Krooser]

Buying used is a crap shoot but so is buying the cheapest import parts and expecting them to perform as good as quality parts.

When I bought the SMB I'm rebuilding I knew it would need crank work and three pistons/rods. When I pulled it apart I found I needed one more rod and had a slightly damaged 4th piston that could be heliarced to fix the damage (yes I have repaired pistons before).

The dumb thing I did was neglect to go over the block better as I found the lower end of two cylinders would need sleeves... my fault. So those holes are being sleeved.

I'm repairing the block because it's cheaper to do that than to get a new block and do all the machine work that this block has had done. And I like to fix things... I'm just not a throwaway kinda guy. I'm updating the chassis I'm using after the PO stripped it after sustaining a hit that bent one chunk of tubing I can replace with 1/2 hour's worth of work. Actually I can just heat the tube and pull it back to it's original spec.

Buy to each his own... I used to be one of those guys who bought everything new. But poverty and old age goes a long way in changing one's buying habits. Now I don't replace anything that can be fixed with "Grandpa repairs"...

 

[Krooser]

The clutch I've been looking at after talking to Ram and Mcloed is Rams 10.5 twin disc. Supposedly that's their suggestion for the best compromise between street and strip. It's like 1500 bucks for the clutch and flywheel combo. Still researching clutch options though but I'm certainly not afraid to spend the money on quality. Already destroyed the centerforce dual friction so not wanting a repeat of that.

As for those w2's they'd be going on my 408 stroker so I'd imagine those big ports would be ok due to my engines size?

What are the advantages of milling off the 4150 flange on the strip dominator and welding a dominator flange on it? I had originally hoped i could use a Holley 850 dp that I've got sitting on a shelf.

If I get the w2's it comes with TTI 1 7/8 ceramic coated headers and a ported matched strip dominator intake.

Here's pictures of the rockers and intake. Oh and question, what are the two petcocks on the back of the intake for?
View attachment 1715377893 View attachment 1715377894

Bleeding air out of the system....might have been in an installation where the intake was higher than the radiator filler.

 

[yellow rose]

The clutch I've been looking at after talking to Ram and Mcloed is Rams 10.5 twin disc. Supposedly that's their suggestion for the best compromise between street and strip. It's like 1500 bucks for the clutch and flywheel combo. Still researching clutch options though but I'm certainly not afraid to spend the money on quality. Already destroyed the centerforce dual friction so not wanting a repeat of that.

As for those w2's they'd be going on my 408 stroker so I'd imagine those big ports would be ok due to my engines size?

What are the advantages of milling off the 4150 flange on the strip dominator and welding a dominator flange on it? I had originally hoped i could use a Holley 850 dp that I've got sitting on a shelf.

If I get the w2's it comes with TTI 1 7/8 ceramic coated headers and a ported matched strip dominator intake.

Here's pictures of the rockers and intake. Oh and question, what are the two petcocks on the back of the intake for?
View attachment 1715377893 View attachment 1715377894

If you want to break parts, that's the clutch I would use. You don't need or want a twin disc clutch. You don't need all that rotating weight. You NEED as a MUST HAVE aluminum flywheel.

You need to invest in a sintered iron disc clutch. They are expensive because you just can't run an 11 inch Long style pressure plate. You need a 10.5 unit. If you could use the 11 inch plate, you could do it for under a grand. But you can't. That's ok. Smaller is better.

Don't let anyone talk you into a dual disc clutch or a diaphragm clutch. You need a good, quality adjustable sintered iron clutch. That would be the McLeod Sof-Lok, or a custome Black Magic clutch, or call Hyatt or the guy in Idaho and have one of them hook you up. You can use almost nothing for base pressure.,I run around on the street with about 650 pounds of base pressure. At the track (if I ever decide to do it) I'll be at about 800 pounds of base pressure and maybe 15-20 grams of centrifugal weight. That's all.

Pressure plate load is what breaks parts. And heavy flywheels. You just don't need them.

Spend your money on a clutch and you won't regret it.

I'll look up the name of the guy from Idaho.

 

[mbaird]

This baby would feed those heads !

 

[yellow rose]

The clutch I've been looking at after talking to Ram and Mcloed is Rams 10.5 twin disc. Supposedly that's their suggestion for the best compromise between street and strip. It's like 1500 bucks for the clutch and flywheel combo. Still researching clutch options though but I'm certainly not afraid to spend the money on quality. Already destroyed the centerforce dual friction so not wanting a repeat of that.

As for those w2's they'd be going on my 408 stroker so I'd imagine those big ports would be ok due to my engines size?

What are the advantages of milling off the 4150 flange on the strip dominator and welding a dominator flange on it? I had originally hoped i could use a Holley 850 dp that I've got sitting on a shelf.

If I get the w2's it comes with TTI 1 7/8 ceramic coated headers and a ported matched strip dominator intake.

Here's pictures of the rockers and intake. Oh and question, what are the two petcocks on the back of the intake for?
View attachment 1715377893 View attachment 1715377894

BTW, nothing wrong with the parts in the pictures. Intake probably needs some welding for it to be correct. I'm not a fan of 4500 to 4150 adapters. I can make a 4500 plate and weld it on that intake and not have a spacer on it. I have that intake, and that's how I'm going to do mine. The rockers are damn good units. Nothing wrong with those.

 

[SLOPAR72]

If you want to break parts, that's the clutch I would use. You don't need or want a twin disc clutch. You don't need all that rotating weight. You NEED as a MUST HAVE aluminum flywheel.

You need to invest in a sintered iron disc clutch. They are expensive because you just can't run an 11 inch Long style pressure plate. You need a 10.5 unit. If you could use the 11 inch plate, you could do it for under a grand. But you can't. That's ok. Smaller is better.

Don't let anyone talk you into a dual disc clutch or a diaphragm clutch. You need a good, quality adjustable sintered iron clutch. That would be the McLeod Sof-Lok, or a custome Black Magic clutch, or call Hyatt or the guy in Idaho and have one of them hook you up. You can use almost nothing for base pressure.,I run around on the street with about 650 pounds of base pressure. At the track (if I ever decide to do it) I'll be at about 800 pounds of base pressure and maybe 15-20 grams of centrifugal weight. That's all.

Pressure plate load is what breaks parts. And heavy flywheels. You just don't need them.

Spend your money on a clutch and you won't regret it.

I'll look up the name of the guy from Idaho.

Tim Hyatt passed away a few years ago. The biz may still be going through. Talk about a loss for the 3 pedal guys.....

I am not a fan of the twin disk either. Everything YR said is correct. A 3 pedal car is typically slower than an automatic because of the starting line. However, if you want to spend the money on a good clutch that is a game changer. And easier on parts.

JW

 

[yellow rose]

Tim Hyatt passed away a few years ago. The biz may still be going through. Talk about a loss for the 3 pedal guys.....

I am not a fan of the twin disk either. Everything YR said is correct. A 3 pedal car is typically slower than an automatic because of the starting line. However, if you want to spend the money on a good clutch that is a game changer. And easier on parts.

JW

Time kid (I'm horrible with names) was doing the work last time I checked. He may not be any more.

 

[yellow rose]

This baby would feed those heads !
View attachment 1715377923

Best as cast tunnel ram ever made. I'm jealous.

 

[yellow rose]

Rob Youngblood. Advanced Clutches in Idaho is another clutch guy. I mentioned him above. He can also hook you up.

 

[PRH]

So far there has been no mention of a target HP level, or target ET........ or much of anything really that would indicate those used W2’s are the right tool for the job.

If it’s just a case of “I just want some ported aluminum W2’s”....... that’s fine...... we all have stuff we just “want”.

Serious drag racing with a stick car?
There are way more important things to spend money on than a used top end for the motor.
And....... there is no way I’d build a dedicated track car around an 833 trans.
That’s just crazy talk.

 

[68Dart500]

Thanks for the replies YR. I'll look into those clutch guys if I decide to keep the 4 speed.

@PRH It really depends on if I decide to try to make this my drag car/street car or just a dedicated street car, or just a dedicated drag car. If its going to be a dedicated drag car I'll put an automatic in it and sell my 4 speed. But if its going to be a street car and or a street/strip car I'd like to keep the stick in it (which I know will slow me down a little in the 1/4 but will be more fun on the street).

My goal would be as close to mid 10's with full steel body and a super stock looking interior (I've got Gary Ball super stock seats w/aluminum brackets, no back seat, and an 8 point rollcage that are going in this winter).

HP goal would be 600 to 650+ on pump gas if possible (sounds like it would be on W2's with my 408). Currently I'm running a scat forged stroker kit on the engine with forged Icon Pistons. Comp Ratio figured out is 10.22:1 but the shop I talked to said we could bump it to 10.9:1 and still be safe for pump gas if we up my cam more. Currently 244/248 @ .050 w .575/.585 Lift at 108 LSA. He suggested a cam that I can't remember the specs on but was in the 260 @ 050 I believe.

I was never considering W2's and had always assumed I'd just have my Eddy heads ported and milled to up my compression ratio a little. That was until I ran across this package deal on the W2 stuff and realized I could pick it up (heads, intake, and TTI W2 headers) and sell my Eddy heads and spend half of what I was going to have to spend having my Eddy's ported and swapping out the intake and getting new headers for the Eddys all while making more power then the ported Eddy heads would make.

Cost Breakdown of Eddy vs the used W2's:
To get my Eddy heads ported w/valve job and milling: $1200 to $1600 (I've checked with several vendors on here as well as a local shop that has done work for several racers I know). Plus new valve springs (say 250-300), plus new headers (TTI so 950 bucks), plus new single plane intake (Eddy Victor likely) $383 Total: $2783 to $3233

To Get these W2 Heads (assuming they test out ok): $2500
TTI W2 Headers: Included
W2 Ported Intake: Included
Had valve job and has solid flat tappet springs w/all associated hardware (which I would have my head shop verify): Included
Rocker Arms/shafts/stands etc: Included
Sell my Eddy heads, Comp Magnum Rockers, and Eddy Air Gap Intake: -$1000 to -$1200 (I'd have to see what it would actually all sell for but just as a rough estimate)
Total: $1300 to 1500 for W2 head conversion


I guess I'm just trying to talk through all my options and get others opinions. Until my clutch blew I wasn't thinking I was going to do heads or a possible trans swap etc. But being it happened and I've got my motor and trans out of the car now I figure I may as well do anything that I can think of that I might want to do while I've got everything apart.

I need to decide if a dedicated track car is what I want or a dedicated street car or something in between. Regardless when I look at the numbers it does seem like if I want to do some sort of upper engine modifications the W2s would be the route that gives me the most HP potential and does it the cheapest because its a complete kit and I can sell my current parts.

Decisions decisions... I just wish the wife would say I could buy a dedicated drag car and then I'd make the Dart a dedicated street car and not worry about getting more than the ~500 hp its currently got. I'd just put a new clutch in and call it a day but so far the wife hasn't given me the blessing on getting a second car. Something about we already have 4 cars and only a 2 car garage lol...