v-6 in early A-body

[BillGrissom]

sorry if I sounded like an a.sshole, ...

Just ran across your post 66, and it is hard to disagree with post 67. Unprofessional, and probably not a way to attract customers.

The OP started a post asking for ponderings about V-6 possibilities in an A-body and you have launched on any suggestions people made other than the 3.9L Magnum engines that your company installs. It is well-known that a 90 deg bank is not ideal in a V-6, but you dispute that. Seems Mopar only did that to use existing V-8 tooling for a quickie V-6. Doesn't mean it doesn't work OK. But, have they done it since?

There is no requirement to use the factory engine controls, though that is easiest. As a "professional" (albeit a bit foul-mouthed), you should be aware of the megasquirt site. Many people there use a Ford EDIS w/ custom 36-1 crank trigger wheel for spark. I installed such on my 1965 273 engine. There are many options for fuel control. Ex. one could connect a megasquirt or Holley Commander 950 to the engine's injector wiring. One might even use a carburetor.

You say you don't care, but I'll state that I have an M.S. in Mechanical Engineering and work in aerospace instrumentation and controls. I haven't worked professionally in automotive, and only once on an I.C. engine control project, but did design turbine engine fuel controls long ago. Feel free to state any post-secondary education you have, or any experience beyond your current 3.9L installation jobs. It is silly to dismiss certain engines as "truck" or "minivan", but one sees that a lot. The 3.8L "minivan" engine was used in Jeeps. I have a Plymouth minivan w/ 2.4L DOHC 4 cyl that was also used in Neons, which some people race. Is that a "minivan engine"? Check youtube for the "turbo-van" (factory engine) shaming a Z28 in the 1/4 mile.

I never stated that the ring gear was integral w/ the flex-plate in a Magnum, only in the 3.8L. Doesn't matter anyway but for some reason you want to nit-pick. The point I was trying to make in showing the 3.8L "toner ring" was for Kit. It suggests that the 3.8L might use a more complicated spark timing algorithm than simply "spark at the window" as Magnum engines apparently do (plus advance). The uneven windows might allow it to start sparking sooner while cranking. But, they could be to help determine which cylinder is mis-firing. One might need to peruse patent filings to determine the reasons.

 

[manchalk]

My company has done magnum swaps in Jeeps since 1998 and we have done several CJ's with 3.9's, both At and MT. The A-833 would require a zero balance flywheel with reluctor ring which we have. The 3.9 is a "cut down" 5.2 so performance parts from 5.2 wil work and we can grind a custom roller at .520" 215 @ .050 that will wake it up nicely. V8 throttle body, pcm flash and you should hit the 250 HP mark. We build harnesses for them as well The wagon looks cool except the guy didnt ditch the PDC(black lunch box on fender) and didnt put pcm under dash like we do it. This is a much cleaner look IMO(with exception of old wires I havent removed yet..

View attachment 1714954533

looking for your info to get hooked up with you and your company every interested in your products that you offer

 

[Killer6]

Just ran across your post 66, and it is hard to disagree with post 67. Unprofessional, and probably not a way to attract customers.

The OP started a post asking for ponderings about V-6 possibilities in an A-body and you have launched on any suggestions people made other than the 3.9L Magnum engines that your company installs. It is well-known that a 90 deg bank is not ideal in a V-6, but you dispute that. Seems Mopar only did that to use existing V-8 tooling for a quickie V-6. Doesn't mean it doesn't work OK. But, have they done it since?

Yes, actually, the 3.7L loosely based on the 4.7L V-8. I guess so they can use the same Head/Y-pipes etc., they're not even the same bore/stroke, so I can't think of any other
reason other than packaging convenience in the chassis. I will say for the first shot out of the gate, Mopars the only co. to get it right the first time for a 90deg. V-6, Buick may
have sllooooowwwly perfected theirs over time, chevy's 229 was an unmitigated disaster as a 305 minus 2, but I'm still driving My '87 3.9 carbureted 30 yrs. & 145K+ later.

Come to think of it, other than engine management issues, Ford didn't do a bad job
on their 3.8L ...........

 

[Killer6]

I would also like to add that I have considered the 3.8L 60deg. V-6 for such a project also, it has proven itself as a reliable mill(staying away from the early 4 rocker pedestal
heads), and is far lighter and more compact. There are tons of other brands using 60deg. V-6's, setting one up is not a mystery, but how inexpensively depends on what goals
You have. The chevy 2.8/3.1/3.3/3.4L V-6 has been port injected since the Cadillac Cimarron & the Pontiac Fiero, God knows how many of those have been raced w/a
totally aftermarket system. In bone stock form, the 3.8L at it's peak output years motivated the over 2 ton minivans quite well, knock about 1500# off of that and.............

 

[Bill Crowell]

BillGrissom likes the 3.9 V6: I agree with you, Bill. I've had a couple of Chrysler vehicles with the 3.3 litre V6 (smaller version of the 3.8), and found it to be a very good engine. I especially liked it when mated to the electronic overdrive transmission because it would turn only about 1,800 RPM at 70 mph and would get over 30 mpg on the highway. (Might be hard these days to find an old 3.3 or 3.8 in good condition, though.) The later, revised version of the electronic overdrive transmission was pretty bulletproof, IMHO. Most of the issues that you hear about with that drivetrain were due to the fact that so many owners considered these to be "throwaway cars" and did little, if any, maintenance on them.

 

[BillGrissom]

I'm not promoting the 3.3/3.8L. The OP asked for ideas and I mentioned it since I own a T&C with one, and know there were RWD vehicles that used it. Killer6 is right to avoid the earlier heads (perhaps 1995-) since later ones have more rocker posts. If I were to undertake this, I would read up on newer Chrysler V-6 engines (~2005+), as I read that some are competitive w/ earlier V-8's. The Plymouth Prowler used a V-6 in RWD, I recall. But, be aware that moparmagnum may not accept any choice other than what he sells.

 

[myduster360]

V6 isn't a bad idea at all. My research leans toward a 3.9L being more simple overall, especially in terms of rwd transmissions since it's more "smallblock-like".

I'm in process of putting a 2013 3.6L pentastar in my 72 Swinger. The Pentastar is a wide and tall engine and I think it would have a hard time fitting in an early A-body.

 

[magnummopar]

Grissom, first, its Magnum Mopar, not the other way around. Second, I don't actually sell anything for the V6 conversion although some parts from 5.2/5.9 will work. Third, reread original post

Hi everyone, I was just sitting here wondering if anybody has installed a v-6 in an early a-body? And I was also wondering if anyone has tried to fit a A-833 to a v-6? From what I was just reading, the first Mopar v-6 was just a cut down 318, and I was wondering if they kept the same bolt pattern for the transmission. I just think that would be kinda cool and certainly different. I think that those engines stock put out anywhere from 150-215 HP in different configurations. A little better than the slant 6 anyway

A 3.3/3.8 WILL NOT bolt up to an A-833 thus the recommendation of the 3.9. While you seem to enjoy insulting me intelligence with your engineering degree and doubting my secondary education. I have over 30 years as a PROFESSIONAL mechanic, ASE Master Tech, 2 year electronics degree and a bunch of other school, classes etc. I was in charge of radio and light control instillation for the CHP through Frontier Radio in Sac in the late 80's, installing over 2000 GE Ranger radios w repeaters and Code 3 light controls in CHP vehicles. I have built hundreds of magnum engines and even more SBC's that have won numerous competitions, been a crew leader for Mazda racing in Playboy Escort Endurance Series in the mid 80's traveling to most major race tracks, been crew chief on 2 desert race trucks in baja 1000, Yerington 400 and 250 and Vegas to Reno. No, I don't go around "blowing my own horn" about my incredible skills as an "engineer". We used to have an old saying, "it takes an engineer to design it but a mechanic to make it work."
This is the main reason I have not been posting here much anymore other than to answer direct questions and emails, I am tired of "know it all" guys like yourself giving me **** on subjects they know nothing about....as you mentioned, "I have never owned a Magnum" . I also take back my apology for sounding like an asshole in post 66, no matter how you slice it, you still have a mini van engine with no aftermarket parts or support to aid in a conversion. You are now on ignore so please do the same and quit trying to slander me with your uninformed bullshit. BTW, I did offer to build a harness for free or super cheap for the first serious guy to install a 3.9 in an A body just for the fun of it, what have you brought to FABO other than a suggestion of putting Toyota calipers on an A body that already got horrible reviews when we offered a bolt on disk brake kit of easily available replacement parts for less than anybody else. Now get off my back before you piss me off.

 

[KitCarlson]

We could learn from each other without personal attacks, it would make FABO a great place. We are all learning, and sometimes make mistakes, when we find those mistakes we learn.

 

[txstang84]

I always love watching the dirt kicking between engineers and maintainers...it's good times

 

[KitCarlson]

--

 

[Claydart]

Hi guys, I'm sorry that this post started so much trouble. I merely wanted to know if this combination could work, and as far as I can tell, it will. What I am wondering though, is how expensive would a job like this be?
I know I could find a small block (318, 273, 340, 360) somewhere if I looked hard enough in my area, but I still think that the V-6 would make a really cool ride. I am just not sure about the whole fuel injection part of the job. I think that I would have to find a carb version to work with.

 

[txstang84]

It didn't start anything...

Grissom is apparently offended (or at least put off) by "foul" words, and Magnum is easily provoked by people asserting opinions based on loose research...neither of them pays the other one's (or your) bills, and this is the internet...they'll both get over their differences and you'll be the recipient of good information and crowdsourced brainstorming.

Back in the crosshairs:

Just for grins, I looked up complete 3.9s on eBay, and found several for under a grand (comparable to the 5.2). You might be able to find better deals in your vicinity on craigslist. Don't be intimidated by the FI--it's a quantum leap forward from an off the shelf carb. Cold start drivability and mileage are significantly improved by comparison, and the accessory packaging tidies up the engine bay compared to the V belt arrangements. If I had it to do over again, I'd have pulled all the accessories for my 5.2 swap (my longblock was free to me, but it was just the naked long block--no accessories, so I used my existing parts which had it's own challenges)...and I may yet go that direction with assistance from magnum for convenience sake.

My own experience with 3.9s:

Although I've never built one or owned one, I have driven many. Even in a Dakota, they provide plenty of get up and go, and will feel like a mild V8 when you put a manual trans behind it, and will have less weight bias over the front wheels so it'll feel a little lighter up front. All the ones I've driven had well over 150K miles on the clock and still ran without indication of mechanical issues. Prices for a reman'd unit are a little higher than a 5.2, which is kinda weird as I think they both occupied a similar market share of the installed platforms, but even then, they are still available and just as easily maintained as any LA or magnum. If you went to the extent of rebuilding one with good parts it would easily last another 150K or more miles.

 

[Phily]

Well I own a 05 Grand caravan sxt with the 3.8. now for a mini van it's not bad. A pain to work on only because it's a pain to get at lol. I think alot of ppls issues with trans slipping was probably more due to the cat getting blocked up. Mine would hit 3k in 3rd gear then redline immediately after. Other gears were fine. Made going up the mountains a 35 mph drive and dropped my gas milage to 12 lol. Knocked that ***** out and bam no more issues other than I think it's time for a partial rebuild of the heads maybe. Well over 200k. I also want to replace the timing chain. Changed hella **** on this van. $2k stereo system is awesome in it too. But there is no aftermarket anything for this motor.
Now don't get me wrong a 215 HP v6 getting 22-24 mpg in the mountains is great. But when u have a sweet old school ride like we have, it sucks not even able to find something chrome to slap on it lol. Ya a turbo is great but I'd be iffy about putting to much boost in it. Keeping the boost way down is OK but u gotta remember the 3.8 is a built 3.3 they already bored it out probably close to maximum.
I wouldn't mind seeing how a 3.8 played out in an a body but probably wouldn't do the swap myself. Now the 3.9 would be interesting and has plenty parts and seems much easier to put in. Personally I'm keeping the slant in mine as it's my ladies daily driver once it's back up and running. Once hers is finished I might get an a body for myself but I'm going to stuff the biggest motor I can that is still easy to work on lol. Then again I have my sanoma I have to get back up and running but might just put a 350 in it and call it a day damn thing just won't start with out spraying ether or gas in the TB and even then just dies lol.
Good luck on the project i wanna see it

 

[Killer6]

Hi guys, I'm sorry that this post started so much trouble. I merely wanted to know if this combination could work, and as far as I can tell, it will. What I am wondering though, is how expensive would a job like this be?
I know I could find a small block (318, 273, 340, 360) somewhere if I looked hard enough in my area, but I still think that the V-6 would make a really cool ride. I am just not sure about the whole fuel injection part of the job. I think that I would have to find a carb version to work with.

No no, sometimes it's more important to be right than to be helpful........lol! It will certainly work, of course, it is just a short 318....If You want old school, a carb'd fast-burn
head pre-magnum w/a little cam would run great. They are 9:1 stock squeeze, can be ported with o/s valves the same as any 302 teener head, and Mopar & I think Eddy
made 4bbl. intakes for them, it is NOT hard to find a suitable carb for that. You can put any smallblock trans setup behind it and you're good to go.
If You don't mind going EFI, then jump straight to the magnum series and don't look back, for God sakes don't waste your time w/the TBI fastburn stuff. This gives you
many improvements in efficiency & performance, but will be more costly than the old school build, magnummopar can & will help You there. Buy a dedicated tank like Tanks
Inc. if You want to do EFI,it is the best choice, and not much more than a stk. tank. If your tank is clean,sell it to a member who may need it, recoup some costs there etc.
As far as the "minivan" engines, they are just engines, and were used in all sorts of cars, Intrepid,Dynasty,etc., & the basic 60deg block formed the basis for the DOHC
3.5L which was a runner, but suffered growing pains. As pointed out by magnummopar,there is no bolting up these engines to any traditional RWD Mopar drivelines, so it is
definitely not swap friendly at all. The only RWD app was the Wrangler, and despite the derision of magnummopar, it's performance was intentionally hampered as was the
4.0L AMC in that platform, for safety reasons. I've driven multiple examples and the wranglers were definitely "detuned" compared to the minivan & cherokee co-users.
Slamming those engines for smoking, no, the 3.0mitsu's yes......but i've never seen 3.8's do that. Magnums? Try almost every one ever built until Mopar came out w/the
steel shim plenum cover gasket, oiling down the back cylinders & causing lean/run conditions,.............so why all the pissing? Seriously, like what You like guys, but this
is what is turning people off of reading this forum.......................