Vacuum Secondary Conversion

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340inabbody

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So I have a low profile (and it needs to stay low profile) mechanical secondary and carburetor set up on my 340 automatic. Running a 6AL box with a MSD Billet 8534 non vacuum dizzy and a 4150 Double pumper with mechanical secondaries.

I understand this is not the best set up for drivability in an automatic trans set up. So I am looking to convert to vacuum secondaries. My set up is practically new and I dumped a lot of money into it on bad advice.

So my question is what is a decent distributor given my set up and requirements?

Are these any good?

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I don't necessarily agree with that old adage. A double pumper can be tuned to beat a vacuum secondary every time if you know what you're doing.
 
What's wrong with what you got?
Thats a good question. Tuning has been difficult. I have higher compression set up thats needs to be retarded slightly to run on pump gas. I “had” a single plane M1 with mechanical secondaries (I am replacing it with a duel plane air gap now). This set up I believe is best for a 4 speed not an automatic bbody. I am planning to drop the compression at some point but thought I could improve the tuning and thus drivability by going with vacuum secondaries. I understand that moving to a vacuum secondary is not going to solve the compression issue.

I have my own ideas about carbs but wondering if anyone had experience with these dizzies?
 
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What is the compression? I'd be willing to bet you can solve the detonation by a good timing curve.
 
What is the compression? I'd be willing to bet you can solve the detonation by a good timing curve.
12:1 approximately the pistons are TRW 12:1’s guessing at the rest as I don’t have the piston height or cam specs.
 
I have my own ideas about carbs................
What does this mean, exactly? I take it to mean something like "I don't care what other peoples opinions are, I know what I'm doing with the carburetor" If that's the case, tell me now and I won't waste any more of my time. Carburetor tuning can be taught easily and it's a stone cold FACT a double pumper will slap lay it all over a vacuum secondary every single time. But if you don't wanna hear it or learn, I'll offer help elsewhere.
 
12:1 approximately the pistons are TRW 12:1’s guessing at the rest as I don’t have the piston height or cam specs.
Compression specs are usually given using the smallest chamber and also several other variables. If you run a compression test, we can get very close with a decent distributor curve I just bet will take care of the detonation.
 
What does this mean, exactly? I take it to mean something like "I don't care what other peoples opinions are, I know what I'm doing with the carburetor" If that's the case, tell me now and I won't waste any more of my time. Carburetor tuning can be taught easily and it's a stone cold FACT a double pumper will slap lay it all over a vacuum secondary every single time. But if you don't wanna hear it or learn, I'll offer help elsewhere.
Did not mean to offend you. Typing my thoughts isn’t always very easy for me. What I meant was that I might already be able to trade my current mechanical double pumper for a friends vacuum so I was focusing on what to use with it ie possibly either one of the distributors I posted above.
Are you saying that given many of the constraints I listed regarding my set up that the carb can be tuned to get drivability to be as good as a vacuum set up?
If so I would like very much to understand how. I really don’t want to change over if I don’t have to. Please elaborate!
 
you could probably tune the mechanical advance to your liking for the set up. it'll take some trial and error, and a spring kit and/or limiter plate/cam but all that stuff is under the rotor and easy to do.

but if you want vacuum adv just get a stock mopar electronic distributor, you don't need the whole kit. contact @halifaxhops he can set you up with one that's already dialed in for your needs.

here's the wiring for the 6AL to stock EI

 
Compression specs are usually given using the smallest chamber and also several other variables. If you run a compression test, we can get very close with a decent distributor curve I just bet will take care of the detonation.
I can’t get compression numbers just yet as I have some reassembly work to do yet. But I can get that done early next week.I

I did plot my curve and recall it being very gradual to soften the detonation. I think I was all in like at 3500. This along with a slight retard did stop the detonation. But the cost trade off is performance.
 
you could probably tune the mechanical advance to your liking for the set up. it'll take some trial and error, and a spring kit and/or limiter plate/cam but all that stuff is under the rotor and easy to do.

but if you want vacuum adv just get a stock mopar electronic distributor, you don't need the whole kit. contact @halifaxhops he can set you up with one that's already dialed in for your needs.

here's the wiring for the 6AL to stock EI

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Yup I did work the distributor springs to slow the advance which did solve the detonation as I described above. But still had to retard the total.
So will a vacuum advance improve acceleration and general drivability in this situation over mechanical is what I am wondering…
 
So will a vacuum advance improve acceleration and general drivability in this situation over mechanical is what I am wondering…
maybe. it depends on how well it's currently tuned and what type of driving you do. but the answer is usually yes. however a problem with acceleration may have more to do with carb set up.

for me any vehicle that spends real time being street driven, is generally better off with vacuum advance. the mechanical advance responds strictly to engine RPM while the vacuum advance makes its adjustments based on engine load, which obviously varies in regular driving.

don't get me wrong, mechanical advance can be tuned to work well and does so under specific driving conditions or combinations.
 
On the street, a vacuum advance is key to economy. Without it you're leaving a lot on the table. The vacuum canister on OE style distributors (like the MP one you have a picture of) can be adjusted. Others like the MSD are not adjustable at all.
 
Go back to the basic tune and begin making ONE change at a time to see how it affects the engine, how it runs out and how it drives. Making wholesale multiple changes will bite you in the *** because you don't know which change effected what.
 
I can’t get compression numbers just yet as I have some reassembly work to do yet. But I can get that done early next week.I

I did plot my curve and recall it being very gradual to soften the detonation. I think I was all in like at 3500. This along with a slight retard did stop the detonation. But the cost trade off is performance.

What makes you think you lost performance retarding the timing a little?

Fix what you have. You should have left the M1 on there and learned to tune it.

This “a double pumper isn’t good for automatics” is straight nonsense. You can get better performance with the DP and a VS carb won’t get any better fuel mileage if you tune it up.
 
Good inputs thank you guys. Some of my thinking was based on this thread. The general consensus was that VS was better for an automatic on the street. My plan is to make one change at a time as mentioned above. First the intake manifold. The situation is a little complex as I am moving to the duel plane for the following reasons:

1. Additional vacuum port for brakes. I didn’t want to drill out the manifold.
2. Would help in overall tuning given the issues of a non ideal motor for this set up.
3. Has lower height which aids in clearance for my hood.
4. Had to be pulled to drill anyway if I went that route.

I am in the process of final restoration and the engine has not run for the last 4 years. So I have a lot to do. But this is my restating point. I just wanted to investigate going to VS to help my understanding if and when I wanted to convert. I’ll try and tune the carb and recurve the distributor as best I can as I shake down the car. This discussion is very insightful as you guys have a lot of experience here.
 
I don't necessarily agree with that old adage. A double pumper can be tuned to beat a vacuum secondary every time if you know what you're doing.
Agreed! I've gotten at least a tenth better performance going from a 3310 750 vacuum secondary to a 4779 double pumper after spending time tuning both on the same combo.
 
Agreed! I've gotten at least a tenth better performance going from a 3310 750 vacuum secondary to a 4779 double pumper after spending time tuning both on the same combo.
Maybe so and probably BUT thats not what I am looking for here. I am looking to improve drivability and overcome a non ideal set up in an extreme environment Arizona with shitty fuel lol
 
Did not mean to offend you. Typing my thoughts isn’t always very easy for me. What I meant was that I might already be able to trade my current mechanical double pumper for a friends vacuum so I was focusing on what to use with it ie possibly either one of the distributors I posted above.
Are you saying that given many of the constraints I listed regarding my set up that the carb can be tuned to get drivability to be as good as a vacuum set up?
If so I would like very much to understand how. I really don’t want to change over if I don’t have to. Please elaborate!
I'm not offended at all. You asked for advice. I was giving it. First off, you have to have a carburetor that is tuneable. All of them are not. They must have replaceable air bleeds on top, replaceable idle fuel restrictors in the metering blocks and replaceable power valve restrictors. It also helps to have replaceable emulsion bleeds, but usually, you can get there without those. If you have an older style or cheaper carburetor without all of that, you can modify it, or have it done, but it won't be cheap. So the best thing to do is get another carburetor. That said, you're dead set on a vacuum secondary and that's cool. Do with it what you want. It's your car after all.
 
1. Additional vacuum port for brakes. I didn’t want to drill out the manifold.
2. Would help in overall tuning given the issues of a non ideal motor for this set up.
3. Has lower height which aids in clearance for my hood.
4. Had to be pulled to drill anyway if I went that route.

I am in the process of final restoration and the engine has not run for the last 4 years. So I have a lot to do. But this is my restating point. I just wanted to investigate going to VS to help my understanding if and when I wanted to convert. I’ll try and tune the carb and recurve the distributor as best I can as I shake down the car. This discussion is very insightful as you guys have a lot of experience here.
Whoa. So you're still putting things together.
OK. Put whatever intake on it you think will make you happy. Seriously. If it fits, has the ports you want, go for it. Street contender/dominator single plane if you want short, or RPM for taller (although a drop base cleaner may be needed and check the stud hight before slamming the hood), or whatever.
Here's my 2cents. If you're making all these changes thne pull the heads and get the cc. With pop top pistons there's a couple ways to estimate the volume they will take up in the chamber at TDC. I think that is well worth it if you think the pistons are putting it close to 12:1. If so, you've different ball of wax trying to run a street car on pump fuel that an untouched factory 10:1
If its going to be octane limited, then that will have to get built into the advance curve.

MSD Billet 8534 non vacuum dizzy
I did plot my curve and recall it being very gradual to soften the detonation. I think I was all in like at 3500. This along with a slight retard did stop the detonation. But the cost trade off is performance.

The MSD type advance can only do a straight line, and without vac advance, yes its limited in what you can do.
If its going to run without vac advance, then a MP Tach Drive distributor will take care of the high rpm retard, and give it easy starting. With vac advance, then a modified Chrysler distributer - but there will be considerable time tuning. How high of an rpm does this need to turn for your purposes and to hit its hp peak ? if the advance stops at 3500 to 4000, then its only going to retard a couple degrees by 6000 rpm. But if going to 8000 rpm, then stopping advance at 3500 will show retard from the slew rate of most electronic ignitions.

As far as the carb, I'd probably stick with what you have. More so if its an older one. If the car is geared high/is fairly heavy then a vac secondary could have some advantage, but on the street, both mostly work off of the primary side. The difference you may note on some Holley's is the sales department 'size them' differently. Compare the venturi and throttle sizes of the a 4779 (double pumper) and a 3310 (vac secondary) and IIIC you will find them different. But they are both called/rated 750. Its an approximation.
 
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