Valvoline VR-1 vs. Lucas Hot Rod oil

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I'll reprint the table from the link.
Brad doesn't cite his original source. Possibly speedtalk.
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Some recommended rod bearing oil clearances for various oil viscosities:
.0015 to .0018 for 0W20 or 5W-20
.0020 to .0024 for 5W-30 or 10W30
.0025 to .0029 for 10W-40 or 15W40
.0030 to .0040 for 15W-50 or 20W-50

For main bearings:
.0015 to .0020 for 0W20 or 5W20
.0020 to .0025 for 5W-30 or 10W30
.0026 to .0030 for 10W-40 or 15W40
.0031 to .0041 for 15W-50 or 20W-50

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But it really doesn't have to be multigrades if we're not concerned about cold.
.0015 to .0018 for 20
.002 to .0024 for 30
.0025 to .0029 for 40
.0030 to .004 for 50

For main bearings:
.0015 to .002 for 20
.002 to .0025 for 30
.0026 to .003 for 40
.0031 to .0041 for 50


And for endurance racing of any sort, got to consider there may be difficult at maintaining oil in the pan around 200 * F.
So if running at 230 or 250 or more then a higher viscosity grade will be needed for those events
 
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winter is out because they put that **** on the roads. I drive them up to that point of the year.
thanks
 
davescuda said:
I thought brad sold and they change their formulas?
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I believe the product line was sold by American Refining Group to 'Penn Grade' around 2018.
As far as changes in the oil, so far the only evidence seems to be a competitor says so.
The current owner says otherwise.
https://penngrade1.com/wp-content/uploads/DA-Lube_White-Paper_FINAL_FINAL.pdf
I got that from Mike Jones post here
Question for Camking - Don Terrill’s Speed-Talk

Whether they are getting the base stock from ARG, maybe not. If its the same product from a different supplier, probably doesn't matter. Source of base can matter, but if its highly refined to a base II or III, maybe not so much. ???
And if its Pennsylvania crude from a different source then its probably very close or the same to begin with.

How much zddp - Page 4 - Don Terrill’s Speed-Talk
 
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davescuda said:
If you have a motor with tight bearing clearance. I don't think you want to run thicker oil like 20w50
I was just wounding the 10w30 oil. What clearance your bearing should be?
I see people set up motors from .0015 to .0030. Just wondering if you are on the tight side or if you are the loser side of clearance does the weight of the oil matter?
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I'm not certain where I stand on it. I've run pretty much 10/30 exclusively in all my older stuff and never had issues. That includes some race stuff with full grove mains and .003" clearance. I'm sure there's some merit to it, but I've never had any trouble.
 
davescuda said:
If you have a motor with tight bearing clearance. I don't think you want to run thicker oil like 20w50
I was just wounding the 10w30 oil. What clearance your bearing should be?
I see people set up motors from .0015 to .0030. Just wondering if you are on the tight side or if you are the loser side of clearance does the weight of the oil matter?
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20w50 worked fine in a 96 Neon 2.0 DOHC 4 cylinder in Maryland for 20 years and 250,000 miles, still runs like new. I'm sure we are all overthinking this oil thickness thing.
 
66fs said:
20w50 worked fine in a 96 Neon 2.0 DOHC 4 cylinder in Maryland for 20 years and 250,000 miles, still runs like new. I'm sure we are all overthinking this oil thickness thing.
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I've seen the forum gurus argue that 20/50 is way too thick for anything.......and yet, I've seen where people have run it exclusively for YEARS and had great service. I've said it before and I'll say it again. I think in the end, as long as the dipstick says "full" the engine is probably a happy camper. lol
 
RustyRatRod said:
And yall be careful. There are a lot of zinc additives on the market that don't contain zinc. They sell one at O'Reilly that says Zinc Additive on the front, but you flip it over and it says "Contains no zinc or phosphorus". So make sure you find out that whatever you're using really has both those ingredients.
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LOL.. that's not good! May we ask what is the product RRR?
 
dartfreak75 said:
I'm not sure where I got that either lol I know I saw it somewhere tho. This is from Lucas oil website tho it says the ppm in the zinc plus break in is 43000! Is that right?

View attachment 1715519214
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Damn... that looks like you are interpreting it right. 43000 ppm ZDDP is way above anything else I have seen. I'd use the minimum mix ratio that they list there: 4 oz of the Lucas additive with 5 qts of your Rotella T4; that works out to around 2150 ppm of ZDDP... plenty adequate.
 
nm9stheham said:
Damn... that looks like you are interpreting it right. 43000 ppm ZDDP is way above anything else I have seen. I'd use the minimum mix ratio that they list there: 4 oz of the Lucas additive with 5 qts of your Rotella T4; that works out to around 2150 ppm of ZDDP... plenty adequate.
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My thoughts exactly lol
 
nm9stheham said:
LOL.. that's not good! May we ask what is the product RRR?
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I forget the name. It's in a clear bottle. Says zinc additive right on the front and on the back says it doesn't have any. LOL
 
RustyRatRod said:
I forget the name. It's in a clear bottle. Says zinc additive right on the front and on the back says it doesn't have any. LOL
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Maybe it says 'zink' is in the bottle LOL. I am gonna have to look for this, just for entertainment.
 
66
take 40 weigt oil all warmed up
a 10 40 oil the W spec is about the same at 0 degrees and a 5W or 0W
The thin at o degrees w0 oil just does not thin out with heat
a o w oil flows better no matter what your starting outside temp is
but it is the same all the same warmed up
the modern ois do not have or have much less friction modifers
 
Wyrmrider said:
66
take 40 weigt oil all warmed up
a 10 40 oil the W spec is about the same at 0 degrees and a 5W or 0W
The thin at o degrees w0 oil just does not thin out with heat
a o w oil flows better no matter what your starting outside temp is
but it is the same all the same warmed up
the modern ois do not have or have much less friction modifers
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Exactly. Widman illustrates that with his graphs of Viscosity vs. Temperature.
His graph using typical SAE specs. I've added the Farenheight
upload_2020-5-1_18-8-6.png


Next is a closer look at the operating temperature range.
The 'zone of protection' is a reference to his text that this goes with. That zone is the viscosity range that best supports the bearings, carry away the right amount of heat, etc. in an air cooled flat six. But all of our engines had very similar oil requirements, although a little wider range.
upload_2020-5-1_18-15-40.png


This is why I wrote that an engine that had good pressure and flow with a 10W-30 or a 5W-30 at the drag strip might need a 10W-40 or 20W-50 pulling a trailer or in an endurance race. In those situations coolant temperatures may be only in the 200 - 220 range because of the high airflow, while oil temps may be much higher.
 
VR1 and done. all this speculation on which is best and what to use has already been put in a VRI jug.
over 40 years for me using Valvoline racing oil. ZERO failures.
 
d so did windman recently revise?well I see he did so I re-read it
looking at the first graph in post 90 it is clear that a 5W would be below the blue 10W
line and a 0W would be below that
better start up and cold flow where most of your wear is
comes out the same at running temp
so pick 0W 15, 20,30,40 whatever operating viscosity you need
Whats different
not too long ago multi grade oils required viscosite improvers which "shear down"
the new Type IV & V basestocks do not
how to pick
learn to read the msds or just pick a 15000-20000 mile oil
old basestock oiles including type III cant get there
now with a carb you do ot want to push the milee for other reasons
 
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Wyrmrider said:
d so did windman recently revise?
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Yes Nov or Dec 2019.
I think his comments about HTHS (High Temperature High Shear) are new - but maybe it just didn't stick when I read it before.

Also on his website there is an interesting paper about oils for Classic Mini. I just skimmed that one.
 
Wyrmrider said:
66
take 40 weigt oil all warmed up
a 10 40 oil the W spec is about the same at 0 degrees and a 5W or 0W
The thin at o degrees w0 oil just does not thin out with heat
a o w oil flows better no matter what your starting outside temp is
but it is the same all the same warmed up
the modern ois do not have or have much less friction modifers
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Viscosity and flow don't really matter in the real world. I have never had a problem with oil up to 20w50 and SAE 30. No wear at all, over decades and 250,000 miles. And some of those vehicles were modern designs claiming I had to use light oils. Nothing gets babied in my garage. Isky will not warranty their flat tappet cams if you use light oil. You can use whatever you want. I would be a fool to change what I am doing. Use good oil, use a good filter, keep it full, and change it.
 
There is a logic to you're reasoning, as its worked for you.
But its a mistake to conclude the relationship is not real.
That's one reason we come here - to pool our knowledge and experiences.
I have seen real life changes in oil pressure, from having engines with oil temps that exceded 260*F, and also having oil blowing out the relief valve of the accusump because it was too thick. What a mess!
I also know people who have lost engines due to oil flow issues. Granted those are mostly road racing situations, but those are the people I hang with.
 
I build Opel CIH engines and there is a school of thought for 20W50. It stems from 2 things:
  • Running at 150 kmph on the Autobahn, 20W50 is recommended for the high temps.. that is like an endurance racing situation
  • Guys with worn engines will use it to keep the oil light from coming on in central CA in summer temps of 100F at idle
So some think 20W50 is going to be great in Canada in winter LOL. What they don't realize is that the only oiling to the lifters in that head is down past the lifter bores....there is no splash oiling. No way 20W50 is going to flow as well there as a 10W30 or 10W40. And so they get lifter wear and patch that up by putting an oil 'dam' in the back of the head around the drain hole to make the oil pool up in the head. But that would not be needed with a proper oil weight.

So yes.. viscosity and flow do matter in the real world. It is nonsense to say otherwise.
 
Never had oil flow issues in anything new or built. I'd freak if my water temps went over 200 degrees F. I am definately not a road racer but used to cruise at 100 mph for hours and run her up to 140 mph once a month when I lived out west. Most cars shifted a min of 3k with runs up to 7K. Never going to be a fan of 0w oil. I've seen light weight oil wear rod bearings and valve guides while the rest of the engine was perfect. You do what you think best. My engines last too long, so not up for the latest tests, graphs and theories.
 
nm9stheham said:
I build Opel CIH engines and there is a school of thought for 20W50. It stems from 2 things:
  • Running at 150 kmph on the Autobahn, 20W50 is recommended for the high temps.. that is like an endurance racing situation
  • Guys with worn engines will use it to keep the oil light from coming on in central CA in summer temps of 100F at idle
So some think 20W50 is going to be great in Canada in winter LOL. What they don't realize is that the only oiling to the lifters in that head is down past the lifter bores....there is no splash oiling. No way 20W50 is going to flow as well there as a 10W30 or 10W40. And so they get lifter wear and patch that up by putting an oil 'dam' in the back of the head around the drain hole to make the oil pool up in the head. But that would not be needed with a proper oil weight.

So yes.. viscosity and flow do matter in the real world. It is nonsense to say otherwise.
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Lived in SD for 5 years. At -20 degrees I'd go to 10w30. Summers would go over 100 degrees, then I'd run 20w50 or SAE 30. I can tell you, the light oil nonsense is probably the cause of engine noise, flat tappet wear, and guide wear a lot of people are complaining about. Never had any flow problems with running 20w50 oil.
 
take a quart of your 30 weight oil at 200 degrees, use a double boiler on the stove, now po it through a smalll funnel- how long did that take?
now take a quart of your 0w 30 and throw it in the freezer then pour it through your funnel
they will be about the same
thin oil is 20 vs 50
0W has nothing to do with
 
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