Verify first.....

[Brooks James]

There was some advice here that one should be in the car , for ballast, while the car is being aligned on a 70 Dodge Dart

I need some education on this

 

[toolmanmike]

There was some advice here that one should be in the car , for ballast, while the car is being aligned on a 70 Dodge Dart

I need some education on this

Not really necessary. The alignment specs can make up for your weight.

 

[Dartswinger70]

Ill add that, I've done many alignments to street cars, and we never did anything other than set the car up, check for worn suspension parts, check tires and tire pressure, perform caster sweep, then make adjustments. We never for example put 200 pound of weight in the driver's seat. I have heard of doing it though and I seem to recall it's for road racers, Trans Am guys etc. That are in competition. I suppose if you are going for precision it couldn't hurt. But I I will agree it's unnecessary in an everyday car.

 

[jaws]

Stock and superstock guys will do that but they are looking for every thousandth of a second. For a streetcar, not worth it.
,

 

[AJ/FormS]

If I told you I did 29 alignments on my car to get it straight, what would you think?
I was an alignment tech, and had free use of the shop afterhours and weekends.
>If you weigh 360, or 260, or 160; I'll give you the same answer; ballast it. and if you are a streeter, set the caster the same on each side. If your wife likes her ham, leave her at home, or drive nice.
>Not only that, but have your guy check the bump steer, and set the ride height in the center of the curve where it is the least offensive, and leave the ride height there forever, or fix the daymn problem.
> Not only that, but if your thrust-angle is not zero, try and get it there. Why? Because if you don't, the steering box will not be centered and you may find it boosting all the time; and if not, your P/S oil may boil out. While we're on that topic,
>set your sector-shaft end play on-center, a hair loose! Don't set it to zero. else again, you'll be chasing the car all over the road.
>Not only that, but try to get your Scrub-radius to zero. If you don't, the tires will try to climb up out of every tire track and rut on the road, and when both sides are climbing, your car ends up wandering. Even a half inch of scrub, is liable to drive you nuts cuz it doesn't show up on the alignment machine....... just like bump-steer doesn't.
>Not only that, but if you are installing New LBJs, first, stick a pin-punch in the cotter-pin hole and spin the stud. If you can't turn your LBJs before you install them, get other ones. If you cannot spin the studs, then your steering will not self-center. But not only that, the car will go in whatever direction it is pointed in. and you will have to constantly steer it back and forth. On the hiway, you will be chasing that car all over the road, with not a moment's rest. A lil to the left, then a lil to the right, with never a perfect straight ahead moment of relaxation
>If you have to Sacrifice something, let it be caster. On the street you'll hardly know the difference.
And for crying out loud; a half a degree of Negative camber is more than enough for a streeter, just be sure both sides are the same with you in it.
>And finally, remember that the alignment is a straight ahead snapshot, and it tells you nothing about turning.
If your car travels thousands of miles more or less straight ahead, then great, set it up for straight ahead.
But if you have a City car, and if those stinking tire tracks between stoplights, drive you nuts, you'll want to find out why and fix it. If you have a V8 car and /6 T-bars, start there, and stiffen up the shocks. All that up and down wheel motion, is constantly changing the camber, which is constantly changing the toe-in, and the bump-steer, which is allowing the tires to steer the car, instead of the steering wheel. No matter how hard you try, the bumpsteer will have just a very small window in which it wants to be, maybe less that two inches. Your job is to try and keep it in the window, by limiting the independent up and down wheel motion in the turns. In the straight ahead steering position it will be less of a nuisance.
If yur cornering hard and the inside wheel falls down, no big deal, the weight is on the outboard side, and the inside wheel doesn't even have to really be there ,lol.
The 29th time was the charmer; last alignment was about in 2002 or so.

Now, if you just drive your car out for prescriptions and beer , well then get your $29.95 alignment and call it good.

 

[Ant]

I heard a story of a big heavy person needing to have their car aligned with them sitting in it, because the weight of the driver was enough to throw the alignment of the little car out of wack.

 

[72bluNblu]

There was some advice here that one should be in the car , for ballast, while the car is being aligned on a 70 Dodge Dart

I need some education on this

Depends on the use of the car and it's set up, like everything suspension related.

Ride height changes the alignment numbers, and having a driver in the car will mean the car sits lower on that side. How much it changes depends on the weight of the driver and the wheel rate of the torsion bars, so a heavy driver with light torsion bars would have more of an effect. A light driver with heavy torsion bars would have less of an effect.

For a street car your loading situations are going to change more frequently (passengers, groceries, etc) so you may not spend enough time in one configuration to worry about setting the alignment a certain way. On the other hand, if the car is always loaded the same way, it would make sense to ballast the car that way for the alignment.

If I told you I did 29 alignments on my car to get it straight, what would you think?

Why?

These cars only have a few degrees of adjustment with mostly factory components, so really there isn't much experimentation needed. Basic settings using the SKOSH chart for most people with a street car and radials would be more than good enough. You're not really going to change the toe more than 1/16" in either direction, it's unlikely you'd want to change the camber more than a .25° in either direction for most cars. And caster you likely won't be able to change more than .5° without giving up more than you want with factory UCA's.

Unless you have fully adjustable control arms I wouldn't see why more than half a dozen alignments would be necessary to find the perfect sweet spot for a given car. Hell I do have fully adjustable control arms, and even with multiple suspension component swaps/upgrades I'd have to say I'm still under a dozen different alignments on my Duster. And I can do them myself for free at home any time.

>Not only that, but have your guy check the bump steer, and set the ride height in the center of the curve where it is the least offensive, and leave the ride height there forever, or fix the daymn problem.

Bump steer on a mostly factory A-body is fairly minimal. Unless you have really extreme settings, or a lot of aftermarket suspension pieces, most folks wouldn't need a bump steer graph. Especially for a street car. For frequent road racing or autoX you'd want it done, but otherwise it's unlikely to reveal a problem. If you have symptoms of bump steer that's a different story.

>Not only that, but try to get your Scrub-radius to zero. If you don't, the tires will try to climb up out of every tire track and rut on the road, and when both sides are climbing, your car ends up wandering. Even a half inch of scrub, is liable to drive you nuts cuz it doesn't show up on the alignment machine....... just like bump-steer doesn't.

Actually setting the scrub radius to zero is a bad idea. It's like setting 0 toe- your tires won't maintain that as they travel. If you're at 0 scrub at static you can get opposing scrub radius values from each wheel as the suspension travels since its independent, which causes the car to squirm. For a RWD car you generally want a small, positive scrub radius. But FWD street cars do better with a small negative scrub radius.

>If you have to Sacrifice something, let it be caster. On the street you'll hardly know the difference.

Completely disagree, especially with stock UCA's and bushings or even offset bushings. These cars have very little ability to get positive caster, and it makes a BIG difference in stability for both straight line and cornering. By comparison, unless you're really pushing your car in the corners almost no one would notice losing a little bit of camber, as long as it stayed slightly negative.

And for crying out loud; a half a degree of Negative camber is more than enough for a streeter, just be sure both sides are the same with you in it.

Nope. Depends entirely on what you do with the car. Sure, if you drive highways the majority of the time and don't push in the corners a smidge of negative camber is all you need.

But if you drive winding mountain roads, enjoy some spirited driving and have your car equipped with wide tires (more sensitive to camber changes), you may find that you get less tire wear at -1° camber than you do at -.25°. Tire wear will tell you what's right for you, if your tires are wearing evenly then your camber setting is fine. I manage to wear my tires evenly with -1° of camber, so it's not too much for the type of driving I'm doing.

All that up and down wheel motion, is constantly changing the camber, which is constantly changing the toe-in, and the bump-steer, which is allowing the tires to steer the car, instead of the steering wheel. No matter how hard you try, the bumpsteer will have just a very small window in which it wants to be, maybe less that two inches. Your job is to try and keep it in the window, by limiting the independent up and down wheel motion in the turns.

Bump steer is a direct result from toe change, they are not separate things. Bump steer is what you feel when you have excessive toe change, simple as that. They are used interchangeably, but bump steer is the negative outcome of toe change.

And A-bodies do quite well over their entire travel range, which is close to 5" in factory configuration. Bill Reilly plotted it all out for his "debated usage" article for the FMJ spindles. Now, that suspension was basically entirely stock except for the 1" lower ride height compared to factory. It was run with 26" tires and a rake of 1.5". The toe-change is quite modest, you can read more about the range/effect in the article https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/mopp-0503-swapping-a-and-b-disc-brake-spindles/

Toe change is never going to be zero for any unequal length control arm suspension, but there's a fairly well defined acceptable range, and as long as you're in that it won't be a significant issue. Especially for a street car. I would almost never sacrifice suspension travel to reduce bump steer, there are far better ways to fix excessive toe change. Giving up travel makes it harder to keep the wheels planted on the ground.

 

[AJ/FormS]

I heard a story of a big heavy person needing to have their car aligned with them sitting in it, because the weight of the driver was enough to throw the alignment of the little car out of wack.

That was probably me.
It was a Chrysler K-car and the driver was a giant; both in height and in girth. We put the heaviest duty Struts on that car that we could find with monster springs.
And I bagged everything we had into that poor front seat, and a 5gallon pail of leadweights on the floor! But after it was all done, and from time to time, the guy would show up and thank the boss, again. That car still listed to one side, without his nearly as big wife in it, lol. But it was aligned with the list in it, so he was a happy happy guy.

 

[RustyRatRod]

If I told you I did 29 alignments on my car to get it straight, what would you think?

That you obviously didn't know what the FFFFF you were doing.

 

[Scody21]

That you obviously didn't know what the FFFFF you were doing.

That right there ladies and gentlemen, is some funny *** ****…

 

[Scody21]

For race cars most of the time the alignment is done on scales and yes the drivers weight is necessary to know as it does have an impact.

 

[Killer6]

There was some advice here that one should be in the car , for ballast, while the car is being aligned on a 70 Dodge Dart

I need some education on this

Yes, You should. If You operate it 90% of the time/miles solo, then yes, align w/just You/your weight in the driver's seat. That includes setting the T-bars.

 

[Dartswinger70]

There was a kid in High school had a big fat mom they drove around in a 66 Charger and you could se the car listing to one side going down the road...