PRH
Well-Known Member
I think you should post a pic of what you think is the correct setting.
What could cause this? 360 problems ####update####
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67Dart273
Well-Known Member
No that is not the problem. The correct answer is you need to get your tail in gear and degree the thing, and NOT depend on either the balancer mark or the timing marks
Dan the man
Well-Known Member
I've installed many a cam and timing chain and never degreed them. Lined up the dots and no problem. I'm not saying that it shouldn't be done it's I never had any problems with the valve's hitting the pistons and we installed performance cams the same way
Not sure if you're asking me, but our engine was on stand, 273 adjustable valve train. I installed crank gear in wrong spot. We were rotating engine by hand plugs out with ratchet to set valves. "Locked up", leather, rinse, repeat a couple times lol. Ooops
I agree, years ago we'd slap a cam in dot to dot.
Rat Bastid
Dunamis Metron
Quality was better then. And it’s INSANE to not spend 20 minutes degreeing a cam.
PRH
Well-Known Member
In about 1985, when I thought I knew everything, I installed a roller cam in a 440.
Didn’t own a degree wheel, and had never degreed a cam.
The engine sure would pull upstairs, but was def lacking down low.
Owner over revs it and blows it up.
In the process of building the replacement I get a degree wheel.
This is only the second cam I’ve degreed and I’m reusing the timing set from the previous engine.
I keep coming up with the cam is retarded 14*.
There was an old original Hemi timing set there in my friends shop.
Swap timing sets, cam is dead on. Hmmm. I must have not had it set right the first time.
Reinstall first timing set......triple check set up.........still retarded 14*.
Lay the two top gears on top of each other and line up bolt holes.
New gear has the dot on the wrong tooth.
Then the light came on........ that’s where the missing bottom end power was.
Since that day in 1985, I have had in my possession 4 other timing sets where the dot on the upper gear was on the wrong tooth.
When you want to be sure........ degree the cam.
Didn’t own a degree wheel, and had never degreed a cam.
The engine sure would pull upstairs, but was def lacking down low.
Owner over revs it and blows it up.
In the process of building the replacement I get a degree wheel.
This is only the second cam I’ve degreed and I’m reusing the timing set from the previous engine.
I keep coming up with the cam is retarded 14*.
There was an old original Hemi timing set there in my friends shop.
Swap timing sets, cam is dead on. Hmmm. I must have not had it set right the first time.
Reinstall first timing set......triple check set up.........still retarded 14*.
Lay the two top gears on top of each other and line up bolt holes.
New gear has the dot on the wrong tooth.
Then the light came on........ that’s where the missing bottom end power was.
Since that day in 1985, I have had in my possession 4 other timing sets where the dot on the upper gear was on the wrong tooth.
When you want to be sure........ degree the cam.
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I agree. comparing parts is one of my pet peeves, I like to know if a new part is within spec of an old.
You ever found a new valve shorter than the advertised spec.
junkyardhero
Well-Known Member
Summit Racing SUM-G1056-16 Summit Racing™ Cam Degreeing Kits | Summit Racing
Free Shipping - Summit Racing™ Cam Degreeing Kits with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Camshaft Degree Kits at Summit Racing.
think about it for a moment... this is a insignificant amount of money to not only verify the manufacturing specifications of the components but also avoid damage of costly engine parts.
i'd much rather spend that dough and time to degree than the whole nonsense of bending a valve-- so now you're gonna need a valve, pushrod, head gasket and to take the whole front of the motor apart again.
people always seem to have time to do it twice, never time to do it nice.
So you did exactly what I said. Initially lined up the wrong marker on the crank gear with the 0 on the cam gear. It isn't a factory defect.
Where is the crank keyway pointing now?
IIRC, Usually the triangle is 4 advance and rectangle is 4* retarded. Why the rectangle if retarded? No chance I install that cam retarded.
For the rest of the people here. Just because a cam was installed dot to dot and it ran, doesn't mean it was phased properly. See PRH's comment, that ran at 14* retarded.
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Stuff like this is governed by the Dunning-Kruger Effect….
File:Dunning–Kruger Effect 01.svg - Wikimedia Commons
File:Dunning–Kruger Effect 01.svg - Wikimedia Commons
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Grab a set of offset keys if you want it spot on.
BE careful..
Cam degreeing help me understand!
Cam degreeing help me understand!
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
I don't give a **** if you've installed 2746.5 cams and timing gears. There has been cases of them being mis-marked, and there's even been cases of cams being ground wrong. WE HAD ONE MEMBER ON HERE who could not get a new engine started and YUP!!! It turned out that somehow he had gotten ahold of a reverse ground marine cam
Dan the man
Well-Known Member
I can tell you how to check if the gears are miss marked and it's easy to do, compare the new gears to the old ones.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
You don't know if the old ones are right!!!!
I had a piece of electronics test equipment by a well known manufacturer. Hewlett Packard. Maybe you've heard of them. In the old days they made THE world class high end STANDARD of test equipment.
Could not get it right, kept failing in part on one circuit, and of course that is why I got it cheap. Turns out I was not privy to an update bulletin. There were a couple of components in a circuit that were incorrect, and were updated from the factory, except mine was not, and the DIAGRAM in the factory service manual was incorrect as well
Dan the man
Well-Known Member
I understand what you're saying.
Dan the man
Well-Known Member
You sound like you don't believe that someone was able to install a cam and timing chain and not have problems.
Rat Bastid
Dunamis Metron
Dan, it’s not about not having problems. Its about doing it RIGHT, so the end user KNOWS where the cam is installed EXACTLY because that is what matters.
So let’s say you dot to dot that cam and we put it on the dyno. And it’s ****. Doesn’t make the power it should. Where do we start? Simple things first. Ignition timing. Valve lash. Blame the dyno. That’s about it. Now you’re just guessing at why it’s a pig.
One then has to assume if you won’t or can’t degree a cam (no one should assemble an engine if you can’t degree a cam, correctly measure and determine the correct amount of piston to valve clearance and correctly measure for compression ratio but that’s my opinion because if you don’t do that you have no idea why the engine makes the power it does) that you cut every other corner you can. So we are back to square one. WTF is wrong. We have no idea because nothing was verified.
Same thing going to the track, except now you’ve added in a whole set of new possible issues to try and sort out if the car doesn’t “run the number” and if you didn’t do all the above so you know and put it on the dyno you are just guessing.
Just because something runs after its put together doesn’t mean is correct.
Why Dan are YOU so personally opposed to degreeing a cam? Because you defend NOT doing it. As a machinist and an engine builder it’s appalling that guys refuse to get out the “back in the day” mode and never learn or do anything new to make the process better.
So why Dan are you so vehemently against degreeing every cam, every time?
furrystump
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I believe you can and I believe you have never had a problem, but what if you did? Say it under performed or ran weird? At that point at least you would know it wasn’t cam timing.
You can get a degree kit for under 100 bucks. A grammar school kid could do the procedure. There's simply no reason not to do it and every reason to do it right. In this day and time, it's flat ignorance to leave that step out, even on a stock build.
PRH
Well-Known Member
I’m not sure which combination of marks will end up with the cam retarded a “bunch”.
The typical screw up is the crank key straight up, lined up with the dot on the upper gear pointing straight down.
This makes the cam 2 1/2 teeth(about 35*) advanced.
The typical screw up is the crank key straight up, lined up with the dot on the upper gear pointing straight down.
This makes the cam 2 1/2 teeth(about 35*) advanced.
Like a chain jump 
It MIGHT run, more likely not.
It MIGHT run, more likely not.
67Dart273
Well-Known Member
Actually rob I think this is it and it's gone up a bit. I believe this is the one I have, which used to be about a hundred
Summit Racing SUM-G1056-16 Summit Racing™ Cam Degreeing Kits | Summit Racing
Free Shipping - Summit Racing™ Cam Degreeing Kits with qualifying orders of $109. Shop Camshaft Degree Kits at Summit Racing.
TT5.9mag
Two atmospheres are better than one
You can print off a wheel online from many different vendors (and even add your cam events to it) for free and get a harbor freight mag base dial indicator for $29.99. Cost is NOT a reason to not degree the cam. It’s laziness, plain and simple. If you don’t do it you’re a fool and you have no idea (and never will) know if it’s right.
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