What is minimum electrical required to start my car?

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AnswerBook

AnswerBook

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Sooo frustrated!!!

Ok can anyone tell me the VERY VERY minimum that has to be connected to start a motor? I want to disconnect EVERYTHING else. Like if motor was sitting on an engine stand and wanted to try and start it. I want to try and eliminate everything I possibly can and go from that point forward.

The car is not getting fire.

1974 dart sport with later 70's 360 electronic ignition.
Was running before my nephew touched it, he had it for 6 months and "said" he couldn't get it started. When he took it from here - he drove it. It was running on a gas can bypassing the gas tank.

Any and all help is appreciated, Thanks in advance.
 
If it cranks over at all you should have enough juice to get a spark I would think. You could also park another car close by and "jump it" while you crank then you'll know for sure that you have enough voltage without having to buy another battery. treblig
 
Is the alternator and voltage regulator needed to start it?
Coil - I'm sure needed
Distributor - I'm sure needed
Battery - Positively sure needed
plugs and wires of course
how does the electronic ignition module need to be involved here
what about the double resistor on the firewall need to be used or does it
 
Treblig said:
If it cranks over at all you should have enough juice to get a spark I would think. You could also park another car close by and "jump it" while you crank then you'll know for sure that you have enough voltage without having to buy another battery. treblig
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when it cranks - I can hold my tongue on coil wire - no fire
 
It would help a lot if you posted a pic of the engine bay electronic components. If the electronic module has gone bad you won't get any spark but you have to make sure all your grounds are good also. Since people modify their cars so much (over time) we have to see (pics) of what you have to give you a decent answer?? Treblig
 
the short answer is this. you need positive to power the coil which is hooked to a GM hei module which is hooked to the distributor. second , power to the starter solenoid and starter. third is fuel. ground everything to the block. this is how I broke in my 440 chained to the floor of a 30 ft. trailer . as long as the timing is good it will run as long as the battery has enough juice to supply the coil.
 
Treblig said:
It would help a lot if you posted a pic of the engine bay electronic components. If the electronic module has gone bad you won't get any spark but you have to make sure all your grounds are good also. Since people modify their cars so much (over time) we have to see (pics) of what you have to give you a decent answer?? Treblig
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VERY VERY long story about the wiring inside and out.... trying to eliminate it ALL and make sure motor still good - then go from there
 
Bulldozer said:
the short answer is this. you need positive to power the coil which is hooked to a GM hei module which is hooked to the distributor. second , power to the starter solenoid and starter. third is fuel. ground everything to the block. this is how I broke in my 440 chained to the floor of a 30 ft. trailer . as long as the timing is good it will run as long as the battery has enough juice to supply the coil.
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GM hei module??? what is this?? I am not very technical on part names
 
Bulldozer said:
the short answer is this. you need positive to power the coil which is hooked to a GM hei module which is hooked to the distributor. second , power to the starter solenoid and starter. third is fuel. ground everything to the block. this is how I broke in my 440 chained to the floor of a 30 ft. trailer . as long as the timing is good it will run as long as the battery has enough juice to supply the coil.
Click to expand...
yes first time, long ago before nephew touched it... run a wire from battery str8 to the coil to start it
 
AnswerBook said:
GM hei module??? what is this?? I am not very technical on part names
Click to expand...
That's why I asked for a pic. The folks on this site will "see" what you have and they'll be able to tell you what you need to know. A 70s car with unknown ignition is really hard to troubleshoot. Otherwise we're just guessing and you'll get frustrated. The ignition could have been modified many times before you got the car. treblig
 
Treblig said:
That's why I asked for a pic. The folks on this site will "see" what you have and they'll be able to tell you what you need to know. A 70s car with unknown ignition is really hard to troubleshoot. Otherwise we're just guessing and you'll get frustrated. The ignition could have been modified many times before you got the car. treblig
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I know you are trying to help and thank you for that but you are frustrating me even more. It is a 1974 dart sport.... but really who cares right? ALL I want to know is what has to be hooked up to start ANY engine in a car or outside of a car, thats it.... like I said thanks for taking the time to try and help me
 
Bulldozer said:
the short answer is this. you need positive to power the coil which is hooked to a GM hei module which is hooked to the distributor. second , power to the starter solenoid and starter. third is fuel. ground everything to the block. this is how I broke in my 440 chained to the floor of a 30 ft. trailer . as long as the timing is good it will run as long as the battery has enough juice to supply the coil.
Click to expand...
ok i looked up the gm hei module... does this just make it easier than using the one in my dart? or can I use the one in my dart or another one I have laying around?
 
You only need to power the starter and ignition if you have a mechanical fuel pump. It should run with everything else dis-connected.
The most common no start failure other than a dead dual ballast resistor found on the earlier 5 pin modules would be a bad pickup coil (usually a broken wire where they pass thru the distributor housing. A quick and dirty test would be to unplug the distributor and hook a volt meter to the two wires coming from the distributor-with the rotor shaft turning the pickup coil should produce enough intermittent voltage to pulse the volt meter. If you don't have voltage, no module is going to work.
 
Garry in AZ said:
You only need to power the starter and ignition if you have a mechanical fuel pump. It should run with everything else dis-connected.
The most common no start failure other than a dead dual ballast resistor found on the earlier 5 pin modules would be a bad pickup coil (usually a broken wire where they pass thru the distributor housing. A quick and dirty test would be to unplug the distributor and hook a volt meter to the two wires coming from the distributor-with the rotor shaft turning the pickup coil should produce enough intermittent voltage to pulse the volt meter. If you don't have voltage, no module is going to work.
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tested(from info collected from here) dual ballast resistor - ok
not sure how to do that... unhook distributor wire at the connection, got it, there is two wires to it yup... which side do i put red cable from tester into and which one do i put the black wire from tester into... what position on tester? - then crank car - car wont crank.. so I have to remove distributor? sorry kinda lost
 
I read LOTS AND LOTS FROM HERE.... before I got so frustrated and stopped working on the car... I never asked for help... thought I would try and read past info here and do it myself... got so frustrated I shelved it for a month... now.... well never mind getting even more frustrated... need to get off here and relax.... thanks for helping folks - I really appreciate all you guys trying to help
 
The car won't crank? That's not an ignition problem... The car should still turn over on the starter even with the distributor connector unplugged. The polarity of the meter connections doesn't really matter, you are just looking for a sign of voltage. Set the meter to read DC volts, if it's not auto-ranging, you want the low end of the scale, like 5 volts. When the distributor shaft rotates, magnets pass by the pickup coil and generate a voltage. That's what you are trying to verify with the meter. If you don't see any voltage (meter doesn't change readings even briefly) then the pickup coil is likely bad.
 
Just to start I would think just the starter and ignition system. The charging system ( alternator) doesn't kick in until it's running.
So your starter and ignition and coil would (I think) need to be the only thing you need to start it.
 
AnswerBook said:
tested(from info collected from here) dual ballast resistor - ok
not sure how to do that... unhook distributor wire at the connection, got it, there is two wires to it yup... which side do i put red cable from tester into and which one do i put the black wire from tester into... what position on tester? - then crank car - car wont crank.. so I have to remove distributor? sorry kinda lost
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Lets take one step at a time. Help us out so we can picture what you have and the situation.
If it doesn't crank.
The starter gets its power from the battery when two things happen.
1. the starter relay gets a little bit of power from the keyed switch in start position. This closes the relay sending current to the solenoid on the starter.
2. The solenoid (big electromagnet) shoves the gear back to mesh with the matching teeth on the flywheel or torqueconverters and closes an internal switch that powers the battery spin the starter.

If it does crank. Get an in-line spark plug tester (like $5) to literaly watch and see if there is spark or not. No reason to chase lack of spark if its sparking.
 
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I get very frustrated with my lack of knowledge. I didn't want to spill it all out as it is a VERY VERY long story.... I just wanted to know how to start a car when the motor is not in the car(what needs wired up and how), I should have said just that and nothing more, knowing how to do that would also help with testing other motors on a stand to see if they will start or not....

But here it is.... try to make long story short
I bought a 74 dart sport last year(318 car - motor bad) and earlier this year I bought a 360 from a 76 or 78 motorhome and put the entire drive train into the dart, cut driveshaft to fit... the motor ran before it was installed, after hooking it up the key did nothing.. hooked up a gas can to fuel pump to bypass the tank, jumped a wire from the battery to the coil and screw driver across relay and it started.... I drove it around the block a couple time like this.. everything seemed to b fine.....
sold it to my nephew, who "said" (hard to believe as he a big liar)(but easy to believe as he stupid as hell) he could not ever get it started... he had the car for a few months before I got it back.... he is in jail now as like I said he stupid as hell.... it did not have a voltage regulator on it and the alternator was replaced and the under hood wiring jacked all up, the under dash wiring was CUT yes cut not unplugged under the dash, all the wiring was everywhere....
I put an under the dash wiring harness from a 73 dart sport 340 car... seemed to work fine... I got a wiring diagram for under the hood wiring... hooked it all up correctly(at least I thought so)but not sure as voltage regulator was 2 prong not 3 as diagram showed... I turned the key... yeehaa the car turned over from the key... but that the last good news I ever had from this car.. it never would even try to start... I absolutely HATE asking for help... so I read many many post from here to try and find all the right answers as I knew someone had answered my questions once before and I did not want to ask I could find them... I found lots but never got it started... I was able to test the voltage regulator - good, test the coil - good, test the dual resistor - good... but I was not getting fire, it would turn over but not FIRE... I kept trying everything you folks have said here at least 20 times before... I finally decided to touch stuff, I noticed the voltage regulator was kinda hot from cranking the car off and on through out the day or just hot from not wired correctly... either way.. I unhooked the battery and brought it in and put on charge so it be fully charged for the next day(brand new battery)... next day hooked battery up... turned key - nothing...like wtf... it was turning over before and all i did was take battery out and put battery back... now nuthing... it also has the safety belt stupid thing under hood for that year also- dont think it problem but do not know... I just said hockey Puck this and gave up for a while... but need money to help my son so hafta get it going and sell it.... so there it is... trying to eliminate ALL electrical currently on the car and try to start it - just to make sure my idiot nephew didnt ruin it somehow,,,, then once I get it to start I will start hooking stuff up.... just want to start it without cars electrical.... i am very thankful for all you folks help, i just get frustrated with myself
 
YOU CAN EASILY learn to make some tests that we can step you through, and

HERE is what you need to do to get prepped:

1......GET an honest to God Chrysler OEM shop manual for your car. You can buy reprints (paper) or "on CD" various places

2....DOWNLOAD the wiring diagram from MyMopar. CAVEAT!!! These are aftermarket, not factory, and they are somewhat simplified, leave out some options

3....ALSO from MYMopar download the 73 shop manual. The wiring is SOMEWHAT DIFFERENT between 73 and 74, but you can work with it if necessary.

4....Somewhere I have a POOR SCAN of the 74 wiring, I'll dig it up

5...IF you do not have, get a basic multimeter, 25 bucks or more at a parts store, Lowes/ Home Depot, Hardware, etc

6....Get a simple 12 test lamp, any parts store and a couple of alligator clip leads, "jumper" leads

7....Get a spark tester, Horrid Freight, any parts store, or even "drum up" a good clean spare plug and wire that you can "rig" as such.

8....As suggested above, POST a / some GOOD CLEAR photos of the engine bay, so we can see what has been modified (if any) and general overall condition of the 'bay

IN THE MEANTIME start with this:

A...IS IT CORRECT that the engine motors over on the starter when the key is twisted to start?

If so, try this:

Put the key in the "run" position and measure voltage to ground on both pos and neg coil terminals, and post back here. POS should be at least 6, and more like 8--10 -------------The NEG coil terminal should be no more than 1 or 2 volts

Put the key in "start" with your meter on the coil PLUS. This voltage should be no less than 10V and more is better. Post this voltage

Pull the distributor connector (2 wire) apart, and inspect for corrosion, and feel for "tightness" Connect/ disconnect it several times to "scrub" the terminals clean.

Remove the ignition box, and scrape around the bolt holes on the firewall and the rear of the ECU box. Remount tight, use star lock washers. THE BOX MUST BE GROUNDED

"Rig" your coil wire from the coil to a plug and ground to make a test gap, or use a spark tester. Turn the key to "run." Take the distributor connector end NOT that leads to the distribtutor, but the end leading to the engine bay harness. One terminal is "bare" exposed. "Tap" this bare terminal on a ground and each time you do so should produce a single "snap" spark at the coil.

WHAT YOU NEED TO RUN

The ignition system can be "rigged" with a bit of work, but test first as I started to step you through

You need a good fully charged battery that will lively crank the engine

Don't discount that the fuel may be stale. CHECK the plugs to see if they are wet with fuel, or oil fouled, or dry. This will tell you too much/ too little fuel, and if the fuel is over a year old, I'd get some fresh

You can easily make a gas priming can, a squirt oil can, or just take and empty oil container and punch a nail hole in the lid, throw in some gas, and squirt!!! A little oil in the container will not hurt anything
 
well apparently I can't upload photos anymore without a degree in rocket Scientology. so at this point I'm of no use. I would suggest hooking up a GM module for your ignition because you can bypass the ballast, ignition box and wiring , the stock coil. you only need 12v from the key to run it.
 
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