What rights do we have against 'civil-forfeiture' when pulled over by the police?

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greymouser7

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Someone posted a story a while back about getting screwed over by the Pennsylvania police for his trailer while driving back from the Mopar Nats.

What can go wrong & what would be the best course of action when the police officer is asking you if you have any large sums of money in your car?
 
Why would you be asked if you have a large sum of cash?
 
Make sure you have the bank with drawl slip with you so you could prove it was withdrawn from your bank account. I used to carry large amounts of cash when I was actively trading so I carry records with me.
 
And why would you be carrying large sums of money in your car? Hell, I can't remember the last time I actually had cash on me. Absolutely no need for greenbacks anymore.
 
I will never tell. the cop can ask, maybe? but as far as I'm concerned he has no right to know. do you have any guns in the car? no
 
Why would you be asked if you have a large sum of cash?
I keep hearing about it in the news. I drive everywhere I want to go. I personally have been beaten by a police officer before without being arrested, initiating any conflict, talking back..., I have driven cars that were profiled by the police enough that I had to sell the vehicle because I could not drive it in Florida {not illegal}, I am not saying that I am going to look for or initiate trouble, BUT I have seen police do what they want and I am not sure of what recourse there is. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asset_forfeiture"The trend towards civil forfeiture[edit]The traditional approach to serious criminality has been arrest, followed by the institution of criminal proceedings with a view to conviction and imprisonment. In recent years a confiscation or forfeiture element has been added to the criminal process in many jurisdictions. The US President’s Commission on Organized Crime argued for a broader response than a solely criminal one in 1986:
To be successful, an attack on organized crime in our mainstream economy cannot rely solely on the enforcement of federal criminal laws…The Commission believes that a strategy aimed at the legitimate economic base of organized crime must build upon the recent successes of law enforcement, and must be based upon intervention measures as broad-based as the nature of the threat posed by organized crime. A strategy in this area should also rely upon civil and regulatory measures tailored to the specific problems confronted...[1]
Although most prevalent in the USA, jurisdictions that have introduced civil forfeiture legislation include Italy, South Africa, Ireland, the United Kingdom, Fiji, most of the Canadian provinces, Australia and its individual States, and Antigua and Barbuda. In addition, the Commonwealth[clarification needed] has produced model provisions to serve as a template for jurisdictions that wish to introduce such legislation." https://www.aclu.org/criminal-law-reform/civil-asset-forfeiture http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/08/12/taken http://dailysignal.com/2014/10/10/h...o-explains-police-can-legally-seize-property/
 
I travelled to buy a car for $6,000, and the Ex police officer who owned the car would accept cash only. he told me, "in the event you are stopped", to not admit you have any cash, and don't answer the question. They don't have the right to search you without cause. They are looking for an excuse to take it from you. California cops are well trained in this area, trained by the DOJ, run by,,,,,Eric Holder.
 
And why would you be carrying large sums of money in your car? Hell, I can't remember the last time I actually had cash on me. Absolutely no need for greenbacks anymore.

This kind of thinking is exactly what is wrong

I 'should' no I DO have the RIGHT to carry millions of dollars in cash, if it's legally mine. Smart? Maybe not. No cop should have the right to "decide" that just because I have money that I"m doing something illegal. The mere fact that this so called "legal situation" still exists is living proof that there is no true justice in the U.S. I can't afford to spend millions of dollars fighting these laws so I'm forced to put up with it.
 
I am sure that there is all sorts of heated political talk about it-it's bad, yadda yadda.
But a bank receipt of withdraw of funds doesn't seem like enough. If the banks have to report a 10K withdraw or deposit-would that be enough?

What would be the appropriate response to the police? Here's what I am talking about.:

"In Douglasville, Ga, population 32,000, an armored personnel carrier costing $227,000 was bought using money taken from Americans under civil forfeiture laws."
"Brad Cates, a former director of asset forfeiture programs at the Justice Department, said the spending suggests police are using Equitable Sharing as “a free floating slush fund.” - http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2014/10/11/cash-seizures-fuel-police-spending/

<<Owners must prove that their money or property was acquired legally in order to get it back.>> The Civil Asset Forfeiture RacketIt's time to end the practice of policing for profit.A. Barton Hinkle | September 24, 2014 - http://reason.com/archives/2014/09/24/the-civil-asset-forfeiture-racket "The Des Moines Register has the story of William &#8220;Bart&#8221; Davis and John Newmer&shy;zhycky, two gamblers who had more than $100,000 seized from them after they were pulled over by Iowa state police.

Davis and Newmer&shy;zhycky were westbound on Interstate Highway 80 in Poweshiek County on the morning of April 15, 2013, traveling from a World Series of Poker event at the Harrah&#8217;s casino in Joliet, Ill. " - http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/10/03/another-civil-asset-forfeiture-outrage/
Hey, here&#8217;s a great crime-fighting idea: Let&#8217;s give local police and prosecutors the authority to seize cash, cars, homes, and other property from private citizens&#8212;without a court convicting those citizens of any crime. Without, in fact, even charging those citizens with any crime.

Then let the authorities sell the goods and keep the proceeds for themselves. What could possibly go wrong?Well, now we know. In fact, we&#8217;ve known for a long time. Since the practice described above, called civil asset forfeiture, took off about three decades ago, its flaws have become painfully clear. The system&#8217;s incentives have led some localities to turn forfeiture into little more than a shakedown operation.

That has produced untold cases like Mandrel Stuart&#8217;s. Stuart, a Staunton businessman, got pulled over for a minor traffic violation. The police seized the $17,550 they found in his car. Unlike many victims of forfeiture, Stuart fought back. A jury said the government should return his money&#8212;which it did. But by then, he had lost his small barbecue joint because he didn&#8217;t have the funds to keep it running.

Congress tried to rein in such abuses in 2000, when it passed the Civil Asset Forfeiture Reform Act. It didn&#8217;t help. In 2010, the libertarian Institute for Justice produced its &#8220;Policing for Profit&#8221; report, which showed how miserably the change in federal law had failed to stem the rampant abuse. The report gave Virginia a D-minus. &#8220;Virginia&#8217;s civil forfeiture laws utterly fail to protect property owners,&#8221; it concluded.

&#8220;Property owners bear the burden of proof for innocent-owner claims, effectively making them guilty until proven innocent. Moreover, law enforcement retains 100 percent of the proceeds from civil forfeiture.&#8221;The institute is now suing over asset forfeiture in Philadelphia, which has reaped more than $64 million from the practice over the course of a decade&#8212;

and used $25 million of it to pay prosecutors&#8217; salaries. Among the plaintiffs: Chris Sourovelis and family, whose house was seized after their son was caught selling $40 worth of drugs nearby.

Earlier this month The Washington Post ran its own lengthy exposé on civil asset forfeiture. It counted up tens of thousands of cash seizures on the nation&#8217;s highways that funneled $1.7 billion to state and local agencies, and an additional $800 million to the feds.

Only one in six seizures was challenged; 40 percent of challenges took more than a year to resolve.

The series also uncovered a network called Black Asphalt that lets officers &#8220;share detailed reports about American motorists&#8212;criminals and the innocent alike&#8212;including their Social Security numbers, addresses and identifying tattoos, as well as hunches about which drivers to stop. ...

A thriving subculture of road officers on the network now competes to see who can seize the most cash and contraband.&#8221;

One of the cases the paper highlighted involves Victor Ramos Guzman and his brother-in-law. They were driving a rental car on I-95 south of Richmond when they were stopped for speeding.
They had $28,500 in the car, which was seized by Immigrations and Customs Enforcement. As it turns out, the money belonged to a Baltimore church the two men were members of. They were using it to buy land for another church. ICE eventually gave back the money.

According to The Post, the Virginia State Police trooper who pulled them over is a member of the Black Asphalt network.

State police spokeswoman Corinne Geller told the newspaper that &#8220;the facts of the stop speak for themselves.&#8221; Yes they do.Do some seizures fulfill the original goals of the forfeiture program&#8212;disrupting criminal enterprises while giving local police departments some badly needed revenue? Absolutely.

But by the same token, you&#8217;re also likely to catch a lot of bad guys and disrupt criminal enterprises if you conduct house-to-house searches of whole neighborhoods. But catching bad guys is not the prime function of law enforcement.

The prime function is protecting the rights of the law-abiding. Busting bad guys is simply a means to that end.

The perversion of asset forfeiture into a moneymaking scheme for law enforcement agencies reflects a broader problem. It is a case study in how government becomes a self-dealing special interest. Other examples abound&#8212;from social welfare programs that try to erase the stigma of dependence on social welfare programs, to weapons programs even the military doesn&#8217;t want&#8212;but few illustrate the problem in such bold colors. Imagine what audits would be like if IRS agents got to keep any money they said you owed. That&#8217;s civil asset forfeiture in a nutshell.

The abuse has gotten so bad that two of the practice&#8217;s principal originators have now repudiated their own program. John Yoder and Brad Cates ran the Justice Department&#8217;s Asset Forfeiture Office in the 1980s.
The other day, The Washington Post ran an op/ed they co-wrote&#8212;&#8220;Kill the Program We Helped Start&#8221;&#8212;in which they said &#8220;civil asset forfeiture and money-laundering laws are gross perversions of the status of government amid a free citizenry. The individual is the font of sovereignty ... and it is unacceptable that a citizen should have to &#8216;prove&#8217; anything to the government.&#8221;Exactly so. Asset forfeiture should be limited to criminal cases.
The government should not use a lower standard of proof to take property simply because it thinks somebody might be up to something, maybe. If it can&#8217;t prove a case, then it should not get the cash. Police departments that play by the rules should have no problem with that. And police departments that don&#8217;t should have a lot less power in the first place.
 
You don't have to disclose any info not relevant to the reason for the cop pulling you over or simply say hell no I haven't got 2 nickels to rub together lol! And if you keep whatever I is inside even a brown paper bag they cant search it legally. And never actually let him know you are loaded going to buy your next toy!!
 

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Many PD play the game as "Mafia with immunity"

Same as "Why do you need an attorney if you have nothing to hide?" So the PD won't stomp all over my rights might be a good reason... at least since they were so good and gracious with Miranda! :)

Make darn sure whatever you are carrying is NOT in plain view... Have it inside something, a bag and under the seat out of view from any location outside the vehicle. Trunk in spare tire well, etc.
 
<<Owners must prove that their money or property was acquired legally in order to get it back.>>

There it is in a nutshell.

At one time in this country it used to be "innocent until proven guilty". Not so anymore.

We only have ourselves to blame.
 
My Brother was a Sheriff's deputy for 30 years in Phoenix. He would haul show horses(cutting horses) to shows all over the west coast. California cops would stop him, try to degrade him, trying to Imply he was a business, and write him a big ticket for not having a Cali number on his door. he would listen, then place his badge and Glock on the dash. He then would say" I know your boss" If you continue, you will never drive a car again.. The cop would run and tuck his tail between his pantywaist. John loved that. he warned me then of this problem, and he has passed from cancer. But the problem persists.
 
You have the right to keep your mouth shut and your eyes open. Anything else is gonna cost you...
 
I understand what most of you are saying about "this is America, I shouldn't have to prove anything to the police..." especially when i'm not doing anything wrong. Well, all I can say after 25 years of practicing law is - that USED to be the rule and consensus in America - that IS NOT the reality today.

With the threat of ISIS rising along with all the other "regular" terrorist threats, any person carrying large amounts of cash these days does so at their peril. You can begin with the Patriot Act that was passed after 911. Hardly anyone has actually read that Act and that is probably for the best because that law includes language and provisions that are very scary and open to abuse. Everyone wants to identify potential terrorists and keep America secure but the kind of broad sweeping powers that were given to the federal government post 911 are beyond anything Americans have ever lived with. So stories of official or police abuse will only increase.

If you have done nothing wrong and if you can afford an attorney, you can recover any property seized by any government agent or agency. However, it will take some time to go through the process and you will not be reimbursed for the expenses incurred for enforcing your legal rights. But that is also the case if you are charged with a crime. You can spend thousands of dollars in a criminal defense and when you are aquitted or the charges dropped, you simply walk out of the court house with no charges and a lot less money. That process is also somewhat unfair.

The bottom line for people buying cars and car parts is to find another way to do business other than by cash. The government does NOT like cash for a host of reasons - primarily because tax evasion. And actually, if you're buying a car you would never want to pay cash because you don't have a record of the purchase. A personal check, certified check, debit card, credit card, even paypal - all are preferable to cash. Now buying car parts at a swap meet is a different story. You may need to have cash on hand for these purchases. But even in this case, would you really want to take $10 or $20 thousand dollars in cash to a swap meet? If you have to carry cash try not to have more than $10k dollars. The Patriot Act makes a big deal out of cash above $10k. But if you have to have cash, go to a bank ahead of time and create a paper trail of your withdraw writing down the time, place, branch, teller's name, etc. Also try and get an official bank cash pouch to keep the money in. The bottom line is that the more evidence that you have immediately at hand that proves where you got the money and when the lesser is the chance that you are going to be dragged into a "civil forfeiture" situation.
 
I understand what most of you are saying about "this is America, I shouldn't have to prove anything to the police..." especially when i'm not doing anything wrong. Well, all I can say after 25 years of practicing law is - that USED

I was waiting for you to say we call them defendants.
 
It is NOT illegal to carry cash! No matter what questions a police officer may ask, or accuse you, you are 100 % in the right and have to prove nothing to the officer of where it came from. The officer has to prove you got it illegally. I always try to cooperate with the law and be respectful. However, know your rights, and know what you are willing and not willing to accept for questions and searches. Most cops are decent, and there should not be any questions. You can demand that their lieutenant shows to the scene. They are judged by their superiors too.... and get reviewed on their job too...
 
It is NOT illegal to carry cash! No matter what questions a police officer may ask, or accuse you, you are 100 % in the right and have to prove nothing to the officer of where it came from. The officer has to prove you got it illegally.

That's the way it used to be, and the way it should be. However, it's not that way anymore, it's legal to carry cash yes, is that gonna stop a cop from taking it, NO!

Many hundreds of cases across the nation of perfectly innocent people who had their money in their possession which was obtained legally, was taken from them by the cops.
 
With the threat of ISIS rising along with all the other "regular" terrorist threats,.

This is part of the problem. The govt has used "terrorism" as an excuse (not a reason) to inflict all sorts of punishment, searches, harrassment on it's citizens. McCarthy would be proud. It was 1984 a long time ago, and for me, is in full swing.

Nobody asked me about the patriot act. Nobody gave me a "say" in passing it.

Last, pretty obvious that the "supremes" (court) is more biased now than they ever were.
 
Just tell them you are a Dave Ramsey listener, and you format your finances after him, thus why all the cash. As he teaches..... "Cash is king, debt is dumb"! There is a multi-millionaire that does not own a credit card.... :D
 
"In Douglasville, Ga, population 32,000, an armored personnel carrier costing $227,000 was bought using money taken from Americans under civil forfeiture laws."QUOTE]

We have an armored personnel carrier that was bought through the government since it was a government surplus from the gulf was.... the $200,000+ carrier cost us around $2,000 and it was paid for from seized property and funds.
 
In my opinion, any government agency using military equipment on the public is unconstitutional. Being that we are protected from the military being used against the public. But that is a different issue.

As for forced forfeiture of your assets. After being stopped, if the officer starts asking questions about what you have or what you are carrying or where you are going or what you are doing. Simply politely ask the Officer if you are being detained and if not may I leave. If you are being detained ask what probably cause does he have to detain you. If he has probable cause then plead the fifth and shut up.

http://www.mintpressnews.com/video-belligerent-cop-loses-it-on-man-for-exercising-his-rights/196836/

The fun starts around 4 minutes
 
Try being from Colorado and cross state lines. Now everyone from CO is a pot smoking hippy libeler according to KS, NM, WY and UT state police. I tell them to hurry up and run the dogs and after your done not finding anything we'll be meeting up again in civil court. I run on cash with all the hacking and ID theft going on these days. Got rid of all my credit cards.
I had to go to Reno to pickup a Hemi Cuda and had 60,000 cash right next to my 40. cal. Also had bank receipts for the money and the number of the retired US Marshall that I was getting the car from just incase. 60K and CO plates you know that they would jump all over drug runner.
What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty????
 
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