What size engine for the online/Youtube EC?

[rumblefish360]

You have some nice parts hidden amongst your stash. lol
You've shown the eye candy over the years.
It's time to put all those parts you worked so hard and long to gather to use.
What better thing do you have to do now that your retired, put your knowledge and parts to use.

Working on it as we speak!
Over the last couple of days I was getting some W2 head tips from replicar43 on a used set I have as well as a virgin set still in a box.

It’s also the reason I bring the thread back up after a few days on non-activity.

I’m half way through dissembling that rusted up 360.
Remember that one? After I take this apart (with little hope of an inexpensive solution) I’ll start digging out my 340 blocks that haven’t been sonic checked yet to see where I stand.

Or couldn't we do something like 318willrun's drag contest he did a few years back,
And everyone is on the honor system you have to the end of the year or every 6 months to post your results on whatever you have or doing maybe a few classes and a overall ranking, could have a chassis dyno class for ones with engines in their cars etc...

I like that idea!

 

[rumblefish360]

I like your approach to the whole thing. And if I were building an engine for myself currently that fit the bill of the challenge I would absofreqkinlutely enter. If for no other reason then the camaraderie and maybe, even if ever so slightly help someone else learn. My biggest hurdle is not having parts that fit the rules and not currently needing an engine built for myself that would follow the rules. I can’t feasibly throw 2-4K at an engine just to enter. Even though I’d like to. I have a completely machined 72 360 and complete bottom end I could put together but I’d have to source a set of heads that would serve me no other purpose than this challenge.

Thanks.
Well, I wouldn’t source a set of heads for the Challange that’s for sure! LMAO! But do document it here!

 

[frosty_the_punk]

I don't fully understand the logic behind not permitting use of the RHS/EQ iron heads.

They are generally regarded as comparable to an edelbrock or speedmaster replacement head with regards to performance potential.

Sure, you can no longer purchase an RHS/EQ cylinder head new anymore, but plenty of guys already have them.

You also can't purchase J heads, or X heads or Magnum heads new either, but they are permitted

To me, the current rules essentially guarantee that the winning combination will have either an edelbrock or speedmaster cylinder head.

Perhaps nobody with EQ/RHS is interested in participating, but I think if there is it would be worthy of further consideration.

 

[frosty_the_punk]

Just a few small things that may need to be clarified.

Cylinder head porting.
It may be worth while to clarify whether material can be added to the ports/combustion chambers.

If I understand correctly the spirit of this competition would likely prohibit welding/tubing/putty etc to raise the port floor or minimize the pinch. (However if people are willing to do that I personally would be very interested)

Intake manifold.
A single carb flange of 4150 is specified, but It isn't specified whether the intake manifold needs to be based on a mass produced item.
(Once again, It is unlikely that anyone would enter with a fabricated intake manifold, but if someone is willing to do that I am personally interested to see the results)

Oil control
If I'm understanding this correctly, something needs to specify that dry sump systems are prohibited as this is cost prohibitive to the average person and not on the spirit of a budget build.

 

[rumblefish360]

@frosty_the_punk Do you plan to join in?

I don't fully understand the logic behind not permitting use of the RHS/EQ iron heads.

Here’s the beauty, you don’t need to. But it was lightly talked about earlier. It’s just a rule he put up.

You also can't purchase J heads, or X heads or Magnum heads new either, but they are permitted

I just purchased two sets of J heads. Correct, there not brand new.

To me, the current rules essentially guarantee that the winning combination will have either an edelbrock or speedmaster cylinder head.

Is this an issue? (Curious)

Perhaps nobody with EQ/RHS is interested in participating, but I think if there is it would be worthy of further consideration.

They are considered a stock replacement head right?
I think they were anyways.

 

[rumblefish360]

Cylinder head porting.
It may be worth while to clarify whether material can be added to the ports/combustion chambers.

IMO, he wasn’t fully clear on porting. Though that’s a price paid to the piper entrance fee for those that do not know how to port a head. Ether purchased in such a form or sent out for the treatment. The earlier rules did make it clear earlier on welding or epoxy which was a “no” unless it was to fix an over zealous porting. I forget what chamber mods were OK or none at all.
IMO, it would only make sense to allow a “Clean up” of the chamber for better flow as some heads will shroud the valve as cast. I don’t think a reworking of the chamber is OK since it’s not a novice move.

If I understand correctly the spirit of this competition would likely prohibit welding/tubing/putty etc to raise the port floor or minimize the pinch. (However if people are willing to do that I personally would be very interested)

I don’t think you do understand. If it’s for fun and with the idea that a copy can easily be done at home by the beginner, do you really think there going to go the full monte on a head and intake modification?

Intake manifold.
A single carb flange of 4150 is specified, but It isn't specified whether the intake manifold needs to be based on a mass produced item.

It stated (IIRC) readily available currently made or available.
If it’s mass produced, then it’s easy to get.

(Once again, It is unlikely that anyone would enter with a fabricated intake manifold, but if someone is willing to do that I am personally interested to see the results)

Build, dyno and document it here anyway!

Oil control
If I'm understanding this correctly, something needs to specify that dry sump systems are prohibited as this is cost prohibitive to the average person and not on the spirit of a budget build.

I think that was spoken about earlier. No dry sumps. Wet systems/Oil pans only.

 

[mgoblue9798]

Working on it as we speak!
Over the last couple of days I was getting some W2 head tips from replicar43 on a used set I have as well as a virgin set still in a box.

It’s also the reason I bring the thread back up after a few days on non-activity.

I’m half way through dissembling that rusted up 360.
Remember that one? After I take this apart (with little hope of an inexpensive solution) I’ll start digging out my 340 blocks that haven’t been sonic checked yet to see where I stand.

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I like that idea!

Couple days in a vinegar bath would do wonders for that thing.

 

[rumblefish360]

@mgoblue9798
I’m NOT purchasing that much vinegar!


Though it’s probably cheaper than that solution you get at Horrible Freight. (I can’t think of the name right now of that rust converter that turns the metal black after use.)
The con rods I can see. Not the block. I’ll get some pictures later.
The best part of that black block is that it is a standard bore.

 

[Dartswinger70]

no 340 allowed?

 

[rumblefish360]

So…. Who’s in? And building an engine for there car this winter?

no 340 allowed?

Yes, 340’s allowed but the proviso was with use of a 3.58 stroke crank.

 

[mgoblue9798]

@mgoblue9798
I’m NOT purchasing that much vinegar!


Though it’s probably cheaper than that solution you get at Horrible Freight. (I can’t think of the name right now of that rust converter that turns the metal black after use.)
The con rods I can see. Not the block. I’ll get some pictures later.
The best part of that black block is that it is a standard bore.

I buy the industrial strength stuff from Amazon that is 6 or 7 times the acid level of the grocery store stuff. Cut it with water in the drum. Makes some good iron fortified pickles after you do the engine soak.

 

[rumblefish360]

I buy the industrial strength stuff from Amazon that is 6 or 7 times the acid level of the grocery store stuff. Cut it with water in the drum. Makes some good iron fortified pickles after you do the engine soak.

OH! Do so leave a link! You’ve opened up my eyes to something I never heard of.

Are those pickles are now considered prescription pickles for those iron lacking?

 

[Dartswinger70]

A wire wheel in a drill will clean those mains and rods up the block doesnt look too bad inside...alot of times the oil dries up on the cast iron and it looks like rust but its old dried oil with dust in it...

 

[rumblefish360]

@Dartswinger70 Thanks for that. I agree. Last night I dug out a 360 block I prepped for storage. The front cam journal looked hammered until I got my glasses on and realized it was the WD-40 I soaked it down with prior to wrapping it up.

 

[TT5.9mag]

I buy the industrial strength stuff from Amazon that is 6 or 7 times the acid level of the grocery store stuff. Cut it with water in the drum. Makes some good iron fortified pickles after you do the engine soak.

Or home grown peppers.

 

[mgoblue9798]

OH! Do so leave a link! You’ve opened up my eyes to something I never heard of.

Are those pickles are now considered prescription pickles for those iron lacking?

Yes, pickles are RX strength. Recommended for those suffering from excess menses to prevent becoming anemic. Several in the Uncle Tony thread could use a jar of them.

All joking aside this stuff is obviously not for human consumption.


For some reason I am having problems posting a link to amazon.

 

[fishmens67]

@Dartswinger70 Thanks for that. I agree. Last night I dug out a 360 block I prepped for storage. The front cam journal looked hammered until I got my glasses on and realized it was the WD-40 I soaked it down with prior to wrapping it up.

Are you do a build on You Tube? Channel?
I really don't do You Tube, but If you're doing something on there I'd like to take a look.

 

[mgoblue9798]

A wire wheel in a drill will clean those mains and rods up the block doesnt look too bad inside...alot of times the oil dries up on the cast iron and it looks like rust but its old dried oil with dust in it...

Lots of ways to skin a cat for sure. The main reason for the vinegar is it gets into the block coolant passages and breaks up the rust crud better than some other methods.

 

[TT5.9mag]

For some reason I am having problems posting a link to amazon

Amazon.com : industrial strength vinegar

 

[rumblefish360]

Yes, pickles are RX strength. Recommended for those suffering from excess menses to prevent becoming anemic. Several in the Uncle Tony thread could use a jar of them.

All joking aside this stuff is obviously not for human consumption.


Amazon product ASIN B07X3XC229

Thanks!

Are you do a build on You Tube? Channel?
I really don't do You Tube, but If you're doing something on there I'd like to take a look.

Both. A little here, a little on YouTube. It won’t be the most comprehensive thread or videos, just a general info and showing since you can find some serious videos on a “How to” build your engine and all those super fine details YouTubers love to show and add in.

As I joked but also seriously meant & said in the TQ intro videos, “This is not exactly an educational video.” Still applies. I don’t feel a need to show case anything to that level. I also have a bunch of reading to do on editing.

Also, there’s the added hassle of doing everything at least twice.
Why twice?
I’m not going to show every caveat that happens and what I did or failed to do to correct the issue on the video as I’m doing it the first time around. As you know, assembling an engine is time consuming. I’ll do it twice as to make sure it goes smoothly for the video. However, if I hustle and slam together an engine over, oh, let’s just say 2 days. Doing it twice for a clean video take now made that 4 days.

I’m retired and I’m going to do this at a slow pace ever retired guys are going to scratch their heads on wondering if I’m OK.
LMAO!

I’m actually have a lot of “Car stuff” on my plate in addition to regular life. The. At I’m is up at my son in laws shop and gets worked on it and when there’s a slow day or a Saturday that he’s willing to fool around on the car. As you know, working as a mechanic and then doing basically the same thing as a hobby can take a lot of the run of the hobby away. I myself experienced that. Not fun.

 

[frosty_the_punk]

@frosty_the_punk Do you plan to join in?

I am interested. Since I am building a 360 magnum anyway. but it wouldnt be competitive since it will be configured for boost.
It would somewhat depend on the required timeframe.

But as it stands the only decent heads I have are ported EQ's and I certainly have no interest in selling them just to replace them with an edelbrock or speedmaster of basically the exact same performance potential and value just to take part.

Here’s the beauty, you don’t need to. But it was lightly talked about earlier. It’s just a rule he put up.

That's true, I don't *need* to understand, but it appears as a contradiction to me.

From how thus thread reads, Originally the plan was factory heads only.
Then a consideration was made that went something along the lines of "ported factory iron has sweet ****-all resale value, this is particularly a problem for shops. How about leting us use aftermarket heads so we can build something we could actually sell afterwards?"

So a change was made and edelbrocks and speedmasters are now in.

But still not permitting EQ/RHS heads despite having comparable value and performance potential to both the edelbrock and speedmaster

Presumably because the EQ/RHS are more work and less economical to port, and not available to purchase new.
....which also applies perfectly to factory iron heads, which are allowed.

Is this intended primarily for shops, or everyone?

I just purchased two sets of J heads. Correct, there not brand new.

Is this an issue? (Curious)

Not particularly an issue, but I think there's absolutely no downside to permitting entrants with EQ/RHS heads if we're already allowing fully ported edelbrocks and speedmasters as well as ported factory items.

EQ heads wwre essentially the go-to budget iron alternative to an edelbrock.until 2 years ago. There's quite a few out there.

They haven't made a factory magnum cylinder head in 21 years, or an LA in 30+

They are considered a stock replacement head right?
I think they were anyways.

They are most definitely considered a stock replacement. Even in circle track, as someone previously mentioned.

 

[rumblefish360]

I am interested. Since I am building a 360 magnum anyway. but it wouldnt be competitive since it will be configured for boost.
It would somewhat depend on the required timeframe.

That can be an issue for sure. RAMM didn’t set a date or anything.

But as it stands the only decent heads I have are ported EQ's and I certainly have no interest in selling them just to replace them with an edelbrock or speedmaster of basically the exact same performance potential and value just to take part.

Agreed! LMAO. We may or be rocket scientist smart but that’s a no brainer.

That's true, I don't *need* to understand, but it appears as a contradiction to me.

Understandably. I read rules and laws and etc… all the time and I can come up with a bus so of questions. See loop holes, etc….

From how thus thread reads, Originally the plan was factory heads only.
Then a consideration was made that went something along the lines of "ported factory iron has sweet ****-all resale value, this is particularly a problem for shops. How about leting us use aftermarket heads so we can build something we could actually sell afterwards?"

So a change was made and edelbrocks and speedmasters are now in.

But still not permitting EQ/RHS heads despite having comparable value and performance potential to both the edelbrock and speedmaster

Presumably because the EQ/RHS are more work and less economical to port, and not available to purchase new.
....which also applies perfectly to factory iron heads, which are allowed.

I see your point and I think this was brought up.
I’m not pursuing it.
I also happen to have W2’s that I could use. Honestly speaking, after the competition, the aluminum heads will eventually get removed in favor of the W2.

Is this intended primarily for shops, or everyone?

Everyone. If a fella works at a shop, I don’t see an issue since there’s no prize money involved. The amount of tricks a professional engine builder has over a regular guy like us or even more so, a rookie builder is probably and could be an unfair advantage. But that doesn’t bother me since - again - there’s no money involved.

Sharing details of the build would be great for all.

Not particularly an issue, but I think there's absolutely no downside to permitting entrants with EQ/RHS heads if we're already allowing fully ported edelbrocks and speedmasters as well as ported factory items.

No issue there.

EQ heads ……

They are most definitely considered a stock replacement. Even in circle track, as someone previously mentioned.

I thought so. One of our members Mderoy runs 11’s in his …. A Dart I think it is. I’m pretty sure it’s a Dart. I gotta catch up with him soon anyway.

 

[frosty_the_punk]

I think I can summarise my long-winded query by saying.
If you got four cylinder heads

Edelbrock
Speedmaster
Factory iron
EQ/RHS

And asked yourself "which of these heads doesn't belong?"
IMO It wouldn't be the EQ/RHS.

It would be the factory iron.

 

[frosty_the_punk]

That can be an issue for sure. RAMM didn’t set a date or anything.

I'm sure all will be revealed in good time. Entrants may have differing opinions on what they prefer.
Pleasing everyone is never easy

Agreed! LMAO. We may or be rocket scientist smart but that’s a no brainer.

Understandably. I read rules and laws and etc… all the time and I can come up with a bus so of questions. See loop holes, etc….

I think at this early stages the rules can still potentially be altered as needed If something relevant is brought to attention.

This is why i brought up clarification on things like dry sumps, fabricated intakes and welded ports etc.
Some people live for exploiting loopholes, and There's always potential for some hotdog to show up with something what obviously wasn't intended and say "whaddaya mean i can't run parts developed by NASA? Show me where it says I CAN'T?" Or something to that effect

Perhaps it's the smallest of small risks, but we just don't need that potential drama and it's fairly easily avoidable with a little careful wording.

I see your point and I think this was brought up.
I’m not pursuing it.
I also happen to have W2’s that I could use. Honestly speaking, after the competition, the aluminum heads will eventually get removed in favor of the W2.

Everyone. If a fella works at a shop, I don’t see an issue since there’s no prize money involved. The amount of tricks a professional engine builder has over a regular guy like us or even more so, a rookie builder is probably and could be an unfair advantage. But that doesn’t bother me since - again - there’s no money involved.

Sharing details of the build would be great for all.

Yep, this is what I love about it.

the rules seem to encourage creativity in finding a few extra ponies through putting in the work rather than the cash. And keeping it "no prize" encourages participation even for just the keen hobbyist. Participation is it's own reward.

Even if I only spectate, I always hope to learn something about how/what makes power from observing those with far more experience and knowledge than myself.

No issue there.

I thought so. One of our members Mderoy runs 11’s in his …. A Dart I think it is. I’m pretty sure it’s a Dart. I gotta catch up with him soon anyway.

 

[rumblefish360]

Some people live for exploiting loopholes, and There's always potential for some hotdog to show up with something what obviously wasn't intended and say "whaddaya mean i can't run parts develope by NASA….