What would it take to make 1.44 lbs-ft per cid ?

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Nothing productive is ever accomplished by conversing with ya, just an endless stream of questions that go nowhere. Your always looking for a gotcha instead of an honest conversation.
I'm pretty sure Darin Morgan either eluded to it or stated it in one of his vids posted here. How about you go do some watching and thinking.

As for an honest discussion you have too many sacred cows to protect..

Passing along some Darin Morgan info
 
Trust me I understand the concept. You squeeze more air in a given volume, now move it along at a fixed velocity. You're flowing more air but the velocity is constant.

But pressure and velocity arent constant--at all-- so the formulas break down. I'm trying to explain that it's not as simple as plugging it into a formula. Those formulas also assume a laminar flow which is absolutely not the case.

I also think it's helpful to remember...

1. Power production is a result of burn rate of air/fuel (mass flow)

2. Pressure is a result of flow restriction

Anyway, I still understand the need to have a certain amount of flow velocity. I can see how it's helpful for increasing volumetric efficiency.
Guess I misunderstood your point.

Yes they way airflow operates in an engine is pretty far removed from the flow bench and obviously the flowbench, formulas and rules of thumb have a limited usefulness but they do serve a usefulness to help point in the right direction, ballpark things etc.. But also can lead you astray.

It's like music theory, you don't need it to write a great song but helps you figure out what makes that song great to you.
 
I'm pretty sure Darin Morgan either eluded to it or stated it in one of his vids posted here.
Seen it.
How about you go do some watching and thinking.
How about stop being a condescending a$$hole, your well read but have you ever had an original thought or idea, instead of babbling others thoughts.

Your watching me think in real time during this thread. And other than being a dick I've yet to see you contribute anything of substance. Lay it on us share some of that superior understanding on the subject and dazzle us with your profound insight into these subjects, or you just going keep on with your usual platitudes and ridiculous questions ?
As for an honest discussion you have too many sacred cows to protect..
I could careless what the ultimate answers are, I'd adapt and move on. What do I hold on that's so sacred to me in engine theory ?
Thought he wasn't up to your standards.
 
Guess you missed the part where Darin said that a hp curve that flattens over wide range of rpms is a sign that the port is too small, kind of like that Olds engine.
 
Guess you missed the part where Darin said that a hp curve that flattens over wide range of rpms is a sign that the port is too small, kind of like that Olds engine.
You mean the one that's making over 2.2 hp per cfm?
 
As usual I'm late for the party...But this is my 367" TrickFlow headed small block. I have another sheet somewhere, where we made a few more hp but the torque was about the same. I didn't read the whole thread so not sure if this is of benefit to anyone or not. 14:1 276/[email protected].

IMG_20220802_171337883~2.jpg
 
Yes that one, the Small your sacred cow :)
Yeah its amazing what a small cube long rod engine can do when it's very efficient at filling the cylinder and converting that into pressure.

Imagine how much more HP they would have gotten and how much further it would have carried it if they put a single plane on it........
 
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I thought this was pretty interesting from Pipemax's Larry Meaux, was his answer to why run higher fps then 285 fps, I put the Chrysler example 1st.

"another example : Chrysler SuperStock #308 castings 1.880/1.600 Valve Combo
with a 162.0cc max Intake Port - NHRA Limit
i spent 3 extra Days hand sanding Floor's epoxy shape to get to 285 CFM @ 0.750 Lift in a 161.5cc Port 1.880=Intake valve OD
so i dupilcated that Port shape in the other 7 Intake Ports
and because its a casting ... only that one Port=285 CFM , the others came out between 277 t0 280's
on the Dyno that 371cid lost HP and made Peak HP 100 to 200 RPM lower
ran slower down the Dragstrip , so from that point on , i gave my Customers around 260 to 265 CFM max in a 161.5cc Port at 4.94800 CenterLine Length
at 265 CFM at 0.750 Lift we set a bunch of National Records with 318,340,360 Engines

Note : these are PipeMax v4.70 calculated FPS ... and NOT Pitot Probe FPS values
277 + 285 CFM = 281 CFM average basically
343.0 FPS 1.99417 CSA 161.7cc 285.0000 CFM ... way too fast !!!! lose HP ... run 9.90's ET
334.0 FPS 1.99042 CSA 161.4cc 277.0000 CFM ... still fast ! ... run 9.80's to 9.90's ET

Look at this :
307.0 FPS 1.97550 CSA 160.2cc 252.7000 CFM ... this has set Records too ! 9.70's to 9.80's
320.0 FPS 1.98750 CSA 161.2cc 265.0000 CFM ... about the highest useable FPS with a 3-Speed Automatic Trans

run "big MPH" with 260's CFM with correct Intake Port FPS and Shape = 137+ MPH 9.5:1 CompRatio w/ThermoQuad 162cc Legal Limit
371cid GT/CA has been as fast as 9.67 ET at 137+MPH ... and has set the NHRA MPH Record at 137.??? years ago"


"its more than just a choosing choice !

instead , you should be measuring both Intake and Exhaust Port Volume CC's, with a "Class A" Buret
and also measuring both Intake and Exhaust Port CenterLine Lengths
then measuring both Intake and Exhaust Port Flow CFM at your Cam's Maximum Valve Lifts

use these 2 Equations to calculate both Intake and Exhaust Port "FPS" velocities :
CSA Velocity FPS = ( Intake Port CFM * Intake Port CenterLine Length * 39.3289536 ) / Intake Port Volume CC
CSA Velocity FPS = ( Exhaust Port CFM * Exhaust Port CenterLine Length * 39.3289536 ) / Exhaust Port Volume CC

PipeMax's "CSA Velocity FPS" are calculated FPS
and a Pitot Probe is actual FPS ... mostly what Chad Speier uses, same as i do too
however, you do not input the Pitot Probe FPS into PipeMax , instead PipeMax needs the calculated FPS from 2 above Equations

You can just enter 285 FPS for both Intake and Exhaust ( 285fps-Default value in PipeMax )
285 FPS size Ports let you have a pretty good safe Port design in those Port Lengths + CFMs
to use higher than 285 FPS successfully , you need to be experienced Cylinder Head Porter that
can grind a Shape that can handle Port speeds higher than 285 fps

There's another critical part to this being :
always use these 2 Equation results :
CSA Velocity FPS = ( Intake Port CFM * Intake Port CenterLine Length * 39.3289536 ) / Intake Port Volume CC
CSA Velocity FPS = ( Exhaust Port CFM * Exhaust Port CenterLine Length * 39.3289536 ) / Exhaust Port Volume CC

find out what are your CSA's FPS values , see if they are too slow , or too fast
too slow : more than likely your Engine won't make the correct amount of Peak TQ or TQ overall
too fast : very possible you will loose HP from pumping losses , more than you gained from increased Flowbench CFM gains !

examples of "too fast" are here #041x -vs- #462 with same Flow CFM numbers
#041x with 165.0cc limit ... 7600 RPM = 570.3 HP
#462 with 162.0cc Limit ... 7600 RPM = 521.8 HP ... looses 48.5 HP at 7600 RPM because FPS is too fast + pumping losses increase
... yet both castings show same TQ and HP at the starting RPMs
basically identical TQ and HP at 4700 to 4800 RPM
also look at VE% number differences"

1722515300036.png
 
Here another one I find interesting from Larry I kind of get it but not fully understanding why 2 speed gets away with higher velocities fps over 3-4 speeds ?

"from my Dyno testing along with Dragstrip testing this is what i discovered so far :

SuperStockers with 2-Speed Powerglide does not lose as much HP if an Intake or Exhaust Port has way too fast local CSA velocities
reason : 2-Speed has way less Engine RPM/SECOND rev rates -vs- 3 or 4 speeds
... so that the Chevy SuperStockers w/ Powerglides lose less HP

SuperStockers with 3-Speed Automatic Trans , such as, Chrysler SuperStockers have more HP loss with Intake or Exhaust Port that has way too fast local CSA velocities

SuperStockers with 4-Speed Manual/Clutch Trans lose even more HP "if" there's too fast local CSA velocities"
 
Yeah its amazing what a small cube long rod engine can do when it's very efficient at filling the cylinder and converting that into pressure.

Imagine how much more HP they would have gotten and how much further it would have carried it if they put a single plane on it........
1722515822692.png
 
"another example : Chrysler SuperStock #308 castings 1.880/1.600 Valve Combo
with a 162.0cc max Intake Port - NHRA Limit
i spent 3 extra Days hand sanding Floor's epoxy shape to get to 285 CFM @ 0.750 Lift in a 161.5cc Port 1.880=Intake valve OD
so i dupilcated that Port shape in the other 7 Intake Ports
and because its a casting ... only that one Port=285 CFM , the others came out between 277 t0 280's
on the Dyno that 371cid lost HP and made Peak HP 100 to 200 RPM lower
ran slower down the Dragstrip , so from that point on , i gave my Customers around 260 to 265 CFM max in a 161.5cc Port at 4.94800 CenterLine Length
at 265 CFM at 0.750 Lift we set a bunch of National Records with 318,340,360 Engines
That's interesting he went faster with less airflow. 161 cc is tiny in relation to the cubes as its only 16cc bigger than the Olds 316 engine on a 371 cuber.
 
Air velocity through a given cross section area is going to be proportional to the mass flow. Increase the mass flow, the speed is going to go up.
Why would it speed up if it is only becoming heavier via density increase? Increase the mass flow--cylinder pressure goes up. J.Rob
 
That's interesting he went faster with less airflow. 161 cc is tiny in relation to the cubes as its only 16cc bigger than the Olds 316 engine on a 371 cuber.
Rule restrictions 162cc , he went faster cause he lower the velocities.
 
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That's interesting he went faster with less airflow. 161 cc is tiny in relation to the cubes as its only 16cc bigger than the Olds 316 engine on a 371 cuber.
All you see is the Small, that's always your take away, you don't think they would run twice the cc if they could?
 
All you see is the Small, that's always your take away, you don't think they would run twice the cc if they could?
So he ran faster with less air.....
 
Im surprised I haven't seen the term "sonic choke" or MACH Index yet. If it has been brought up my apologies. J.Rob
 
So he ran faster with less air.....
Again your fascinating with the Small.

You don't think he would of rathered to run the right velocity with 280 cfms, he went faster running the right velocity for the size of port (rule limited) which meant lower cfms but the maximum he could squeeze out of them.

Again a strawman argument, you think I think cfm is everything which I don't.

It's about what's right or best you can do/get for given circumstance which might be far from ideal.
 
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