33IMP
Well-Known Member
....and I still think a 6.4 crank in a 5.7 block would be the way to go......360 inches. Short block height, good heads available.
What would you build if limited to 372ci - with boost as an option
- Thread starter 71GSSDemon
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So these are the class engine sizes you can run ?
What class the car running under ?
Is it BVGCC ?
The first letters of a car’s classification usually reflect the engine’s displacement but sometimes are even more specific. The most common engines found at Bonneville are pushrod V-8s for the larger engine classes and motorcycle engines for the smaller engine classes; however, virtually anything goes. A Mopar 440 big-block with its factory bore and stroke is actually 439.72 cubic inches, putting it right at the upper end of the allowed displacement in the B class. A Supra’s 3.0-liter 2JZ engine would place it in the F class.
What class the car running under ?
Is it BVGCC ?
The first letters of a car’s classification usually reflect the engine’s displacement but sometimes are even more specific. The most common engines found at Bonneville are pushrod V-8s for the larger engine classes and motorcycle engines for the smaller engine classes; however, virtually anything goes. A Mopar 440 big-block with its factory bore and stroke is actually 439.72 cubic inches, putting it right at the upper end of the allowed displacement in the B class. A Supra’s 3.0-liter 2JZ engine would place it in the F class.
| Cubic Inches | Liters | |
| AA | 501+ | 8.210+ |
| A | 440–500.99 | 7.210–8.209 |
| B | 373–439.99 | 6.112–7.209 |
| C | 306–372.99 | 5.015–6.111 |
| D | 261–305.99 | 4.277–5.014 |
| E | 184–260.99 | 3.015–4.276 |
| F | 123–183.99 | 2.016–3.014 |
| G | 93–122.99 | 1.524–2.015 |
| H | 62–92.99 | 1.016–1.523 |
| I | 46–61.99 | .754–1.015 |
| J | 31–45.99 | .508–.753 |
| K | Up to 30.99 | Up to 0.507 |
| VEHICLE DATA CODES | ||
| CARS | ||
| ENGINE CODE | ENGINE CLASS | ENGINE DISPLACEMENT |
| 101 | Ω | ENGINES USING THERMODYNAMIC CYCLE OTHER THAN OTTO |
| 102 | AA | 501 CID AND OVER |
| 103 | A | 440 THRU 500 CID |
| 104 | B | 373 THRU 439 CID |
| 105 | C | 306 THRU 372 CID |
| 106 | D | 261 THRU 305 CID |
| 107 | E | 184 THRU 260 CID |
| 108 | F | 123 THRU 183 CID |
| 109 | G | 93 THRU 122 CID |
| 110 | H | 62 THRU 92 CID |
| 111 | I | 46 THRU 61 CID |
| 112 | J | 31 THRU 45 CID |
| 113 | K | 30 CID AND UNDER |
| 114 | E1/T1/S1 | ELECTRIC/TURBINE VEHICLE WEIGHT I |
| 115 | E2/T2/S2 | ELECTRIC/TURBINE VEHICLE WEIGHT II |
| 116 | E3/T3/S3 | ELECTRIC/TURBINE VEHICLE WEIGHT III |
| 117 | U | FOR UDT,MDT,HH2 & HH3 BODY CLASSES |
| 120 | XO | OVERHEAD VALVE & FLATHEAD INLINE |
| 121 | XF | PRODUCTION FORD/MERCURY FLATHEAD V-8 ENGINE |
| 122 | XXF | XF ENGINE W/OVERHEAD VALVE CONVERSION |
| 123 | XXO | XO ENGINE W/SPWCIALTY CYLINDER HEAD |
| 124 | V4 | PRE-1935 “AMERICAN MADE” FOUR CYLINDERS |
| 125 | M | MIDGET VINTAGE ENGINE |
| 126 | V4F | PRE-1935 “AMERICAN MADE” FOUR CYLINDERS FLATHEAF |
| BODY CODE | BODY CLASS | BODY TITLE |
| 301 | BFALT | BLOWN FUEL ALTERED COUPE |
| 302 | BFCC | BLOWN FUEL COMPETITION COUPE |
| 303 | BFL | BLOWN FUEL LAKESTER |
| 304 | BFMR | BLOWN FUEL MODIFIED ROADSTER |
| 305 | BFR | BLOWN FUEL ROADSTER |
| 306 | BFS | BLOWN FUEL STREAMLINER |
| 307 | BGALT | BLOWN GAS ALTERED COUPE |
| 308 | BGC | BLOWN GAS COUPE |
| 309 | BGCC | BLOWN GAS COMPETITION COUPE |
| 310 | BGL | BLOWN GAS LAKESTER |
| 311 | BGMR | BLOWN GAS MODIFIED ROADSTER |
| 312 | BGR | BLOWN GAS ROADSTER |
| 313 | BGS | BLOWN GAS STREAMLINER |
| 314 | BGT | BLOWN GRAND TOURING SPORTS |
| 315 | AIR | AMERICAN IRON ROADSTER |
| 316 | BSTR | BLOWN STREET ROADSTER |
| 317 | BVFALT | BLOWN VINTAGE FUEL ALTERED COUPE & SEDAN |
| 318 | BVFCC | BLOWN VINTAGE FUEL COMPETITION COUPE & SEDAN |
| 319 | BVGALT | BLOWN VINTAGE GAS ALTERED COUPE & SEDAN |
| 320 | BVGC | BLOWN VINTAGE GAS COUPE & SEDAN |
| 321 | BVGCC | BLOWN VINTAGE GAS COMPETITION COUPE & SEDAN |
| 322 | DT | DIESEL TRUCK |
| 323 | E | ELECTRIC VEHICLE |
| 324 | FALT | FUEL ALTERED COUPE |
| 325 | FCC | FUEL COMPETITION COUPE |
| 326 | FL | FUEL LAKESTER |
| 327 | FMR | FUEL MODIFIED ROADSTER |
| 328 | FR | FUEL ROADSTER |
| 329 | FS | FUEL STREAMLINER |
| 330 | GALT | GAS ALTERED COUPE |
| 331 | GC | GAS COUPE |
| 332 | GCC | GAS COMPETITION COUPE |
| 333 | GL | GAS LAKESTER |
| 334 | GMR | GAS MODIFIED ROADSTER |
| 335 | GR | GAS ROADSTER |
| 336 | GS | GAS STREAMLINER |
| 337 | GT | GRAND TOURING SPORTS |
| 338 | BMP | BLOWN MODIFIED PICKUP |
| 339 | BMMP | BLOWN MODIFIED MID-MINI PICKUP |
| 340 | PMP | PRODUCTION MID-MINI PICKUP |
| 341 | MMP | MODIFIED MID-MINI PICKUP |
| 342 | MP | MODIFIED PICKUP |
| 343 | MDT | MODIFIED DIESEL TRUCK |
| 344 | MVOT | MIDGET VINTAGE OVAL TRACK |
| 345 | PP | PRODUCTION PICKUP |
| 346 | PRO | PRODUCTION COUPE & SEDAN |
| 347 | PS | PRODUCTION SUPERCHARGED |
| 348 | STR | STREET ROADSTER |
| 349 | UDT | UNLIMITED DIESEL TRUCK |
| 350 | VFALT | VINTAGE FUEL ALTERED COUPE |
| 351 | VFCC | VINTAGE FUEL COMPETITION COUPE |
| 352 | VGALT | VINTAGE GAS ALTERED COUPE |
| 353 | VGC | VINTAGE GAS COUPE |
| 354 | VGCC | VINTAGE GAS COMPETITION COUPE |
| 355 | VOT | VINTAGE OVAL TRACK |
| 356 | T | TURBINE VEHICLE |
| 357 | DS | DIESEL STREAMLINER |
| 358 | HH2 | HIGHWAY HAULER II |
| 359 | HH3 | HIGHWAY HAULER III |
| 360 | BFMS | BLOWN FUEL MODIFIED SPORTS |
| 361 | MGMS | BLOWN GAS MODIFIED SPORTS |
| 362 | FMS | FUEL MODIFIED SPORTS |
| 363 | GMS | GAS MODIFIED SPORTS |
| 364 | CBFALT | CLASSIC BLOWN FUEL ALTERED COUPE & SEDAN |
| 365 | CBGALT | CLASSIC BLOWN GAS ALTERED COUPE & SEDAN |
| 366 | CBGC | CLASSIC BLOWN GAS COUPE & SEDAN |
| 367 | CFALT | CLASSIC FUEL ALTERED COUPE & SEDAN |
| 368 | CGALT | CLASSIC GAS ALTERED COUPE & SEDAN |
| 369 | CGC | CLASSIC GAS COUPE & SEDAN |
| 370 | CPRO | CLASSIC PRODUCTION COUPE & SEDAN |
| 371 | CPS | CLASSIC PRODUCTION SUPERCHARGED COUPE & SEDAN |
| 372 | S | STEAM |
| 373 | BFRMR | BLOWN FUEL REAR ENGINE MODIFIED ROADSTER |
| 374 | FRMR | FUEL REAR ENGINE MODIFIED ROADSTER |
| 375 | BGRMR | BLOWN GAS REAR ENGINE MODIFIED ROADSTER |
| 376 | GRMR | GAS REAR ENGINE MODIFIED ROADSTER |
| 599 | TO | TIME ONLY |
I came across this might have some useful info.
Performance Trends Blog
Just another WordPress weblog
Top speed racing is very much like drag racing, but just on a very long track. In drag racing, it is power to weight ratio which typically determines your performance. However, when the track is very long, and your vehicle spends much more time at high speed, it is power to drag ratio which is more important. By drag, I mean primarily aerodynamic drag or wind resistance. In addition to aerodynamic drag, there is rolling resistance from tires, driveline losses, but the higher the speed, the larger the aerodynamic component of overall drag.
To improve the power to drag ratio, you want to increase the power and reduce the drag, which makes sense. To go faster, you need more power and you want to make the car more aerodynamic. However, what you may not know, is that to go twice as fast, you need eight (8) times the power. If your 200 HP car can top out at 120 MPH, you would need 1600 HP to top out at 240 MPH. (You would also need some really good tires to hold together, and good aero downforce to stay on the road).
Most all racers have some idea on how to improve the engine’s power. Engine power can be fairly reliably simulated with our Engine Analyzer computer programs, and these can all be tested with an engine dynamometer and our Dyno Datamite software.
The biggest contributors to aerodynamic drag are the vehicle’s frontal area (silhouette of vehicle when viewed from the front) and it’s drag coefficient (a rating of how easily the vehicle slices through the air for it’s frontal area). Drag coefficients vary from a high value of about .8 for an upright rider on a vintage motorcycle, to .6 for an older pickup truck, to .4 for a modern aerodynamic sedan, to .35 for a modern sports car, to an incredibly low .15 of “pencil shaped” land speed record cars like the Blue Flame.
To optimize the aerodynamics of your particular vehicle, you should read everything you can get your hands on. The basic shape has a large effect, but subtle things like windshield moldings, vehicle rake (lowering the front end), underbody protrusions all add up to huge improvements. Typically you just make these mods you have read about and hope for the best, because it is very difficult to measure if your aerodynamic mods have made any really improvement.
The best way to actually measure the effect of aerodynamic mods is to rent a wind tunnel, at around $50,000 per day. For the rest of us, we can preform coastdown tests. This is where you get your car up to a top speed, throw it in neutral and let it coast to a lower speed. For this to be accurate, you should use the same stretch of very flat road, and do the test in both directions to minimize the effects of wind and slight grade of the road. If the coastdown times, from say 100 to 60 MPH has increased 3%, it means you have made a 3% improvement (reduction) in drag coefficient.
The best way to do coastdown tests it to do several and average the results. It is also best to use some type of data logger so you get lots of accurate data and the driver can concentrate on driving. From doing coastdown tests myself, I can say that this requires lots of tests and patience to get good results. Also, the higher the speed (not on public roads), the better the results. There is also software which can separate how much of the coastdown drag is from the tire rolling resistance and how much is from aerodynamic effects, and come up with actual numbers, like your drag coefficient is .322.
OK, so we’ve talked about the power to drag ratio contributors. But there are other, secondary effects which also have an effect. These effect how efficiently you take advantage of the power to drag ratio you have to work with. For example, top speed tracks vary in length, from Maxton’s Monster Mile at just 1 mile, to El Mirage’s 1.33 miles, to Bonneville’s legendary 5 miles. To get the optimum top speed, you want to get to top speed quickly, to optimize acceleration at all times. This gets back to the drag race idea. You don’t have to worry about 60 ft times or pulling wheelies, but you do want to optimize your shift points. A quick El Mirage computer simulation showed a .6 MPH improvement on a 140 MPH car by shifting quickly at optimum RPMs, vs “lazy” shifting at RPMs about 1500 RPM off optimum.
Total gear ratio is critical. You want to put the engine at it’s peak HP RPM when the vehicle reaches top speed. The peakier the power curve, the more critical this is.
Another aerodynamic effect is lift. The lift coefficient determines how much your vehicle acts like an airplane wing. If you have a high lift coefficient, you loose traction at the tires and loose steering control. Too much negative lift coefficient, and your tires have to do more work and rolling resistance increases. This is another item which will require you reading up what others have done. Lift coefficient is very difficult to measure, but you should be aware of its effects as it has a huge effect on safety.
Another detail is a hood scoop efficiency. An effective hood scoop at high speed produces significant boost pressure for the engine to improve power. For example, a perfect hood scoop at 200 MPH will produce .75 psi boost, which equates to approximately a 5% power improvement. However, if you have to increase the drag 10% with a big, protruding bump on the hood, it’s probably an overall loss to top speed.
To truly understand all the things which affect “real world” top speed performance, you need a vehicle simulation programs like Drag Race Analyzer or Drag Race Analyzer Pro which lets you modify things like we’ve talked about, which include:
You also want to read up on what ever you can find on top speed racing.
Performance Trends Blog
Just another WordPress weblog
Things to Consider Before Top Speed Racing at Bonneville Salt Flats
Posted byDennis Gertgen August 19, 2009Top speed racing is very much like drag racing, but just on a very long track. In drag racing, it is power to weight ratio which typically determines your performance. However, when the track is very long, and your vehicle spends much more time at high speed, it is power to drag ratio which is more important. By drag, I mean primarily aerodynamic drag or wind resistance. In addition to aerodynamic drag, there is rolling resistance from tires, driveline losses, but the higher the speed, the larger the aerodynamic component of overall drag.
To improve the power to drag ratio, you want to increase the power and reduce the drag, which makes sense. To go faster, you need more power and you want to make the car more aerodynamic. However, what you may not know, is that to go twice as fast, you need eight (8) times the power. If your 200 HP car can top out at 120 MPH, you would need 1600 HP to top out at 240 MPH. (You would also need some really good tires to hold together, and good aero downforce to stay on the road).
Most all racers have some idea on how to improve the engine’s power. Engine power can be fairly reliably simulated with our Engine Analyzer computer programs, and these can all be tested with an engine dynamometer and our Dyno Datamite software.
The biggest contributors to aerodynamic drag are the vehicle’s frontal area (silhouette of vehicle when viewed from the front) and it’s drag coefficient (a rating of how easily the vehicle slices through the air for it’s frontal area). Drag coefficients vary from a high value of about .8 for an upright rider on a vintage motorcycle, to .6 for an older pickup truck, to .4 for a modern aerodynamic sedan, to .35 for a modern sports car, to an incredibly low .15 of “pencil shaped” land speed record cars like the Blue Flame.
To optimize the aerodynamics of your particular vehicle, you should read everything you can get your hands on. The basic shape has a large effect, but subtle things like windshield moldings, vehicle rake (lowering the front end), underbody protrusions all add up to huge improvements. Typically you just make these mods you have read about and hope for the best, because it is very difficult to measure if your aerodynamic mods have made any really improvement.
The best way to actually measure the effect of aerodynamic mods is to rent a wind tunnel, at around $50,000 per day. For the rest of us, we can preform coastdown tests. This is where you get your car up to a top speed, throw it in neutral and let it coast to a lower speed. For this to be accurate, you should use the same stretch of very flat road, and do the test in both directions to minimize the effects of wind and slight grade of the road. If the coastdown times, from say 100 to 60 MPH has increased 3%, it means you have made a 3% improvement (reduction) in drag coefficient.
The best way to do coastdown tests it to do several and average the results. It is also best to use some type of data logger so you get lots of accurate data and the driver can concentrate on driving. From doing coastdown tests myself, I can say that this requires lots of tests and patience to get good results. Also, the higher the speed (not on public roads), the better the results. There is also software which can separate how much of the coastdown drag is from the tire rolling resistance and how much is from aerodynamic effects, and come up with actual numbers, like your drag coefficient is .322.
OK, so we’ve talked about the power to drag ratio contributors. But there are other, secondary effects which also have an effect. These effect how efficiently you take advantage of the power to drag ratio you have to work with. For example, top speed tracks vary in length, from Maxton’s Monster Mile at just 1 mile, to El Mirage’s 1.33 miles, to Bonneville’s legendary 5 miles. To get the optimum top speed, you want to get to top speed quickly, to optimize acceleration at all times. This gets back to the drag race idea. You don’t have to worry about 60 ft times or pulling wheelies, but you do want to optimize your shift points. A quick El Mirage computer simulation showed a .6 MPH improvement on a 140 MPH car by shifting quickly at optimum RPMs, vs “lazy” shifting at RPMs about 1500 RPM off optimum.
Total gear ratio is critical. You want to put the engine at it’s peak HP RPM when the vehicle reaches top speed. The peakier the power curve, the more critical this is.
Another aerodynamic effect is lift. The lift coefficient determines how much your vehicle acts like an airplane wing. If you have a high lift coefficient, you loose traction at the tires and loose steering control. Too much negative lift coefficient, and your tires have to do more work and rolling resistance increases. This is another item which will require you reading up what others have done. Lift coefficient is very difficult to measure, but you should be aware of its effects as it has a huge effect on safety.
Another detail is a hood scoop efficiency. An effective hood scoop at high speed produces significant boost pressure for the engine to improve power. For example, a perfect hood scoop at 200 MPH will produce .75 psi boost, which equates to approximately a 5% power improvement. However, if you have to increase the drag 10% with a big, protruding bump on the hood, it’s probably an overall loss to top speed.
To truly understand all the things which affect “real world” top speed performance, you need a vehicle simulation programs like Drag Race Analyzer or Drag Race Analyzer Pro which lets you modify things like we’ve talked about, which include:
- Actual engine power curve through entire RPM range
- Drag coefficient and frontal area (and possibly lift coefficient).
- Transmission and final drive ratio
- Hood scoop efficiency
- Tire type (to estimate rolling resistance)
- Track length
- Shift RPMs and shift type (fast, slow, power shift, etc).
You also want to read up on what ever you can find on top speed racing.
Roadkill's blown 347 2nd gen Camaro had 1100 hp to do
208.791 mph, beating a record in C/Blown Gas Coupe
https://www.motortrend.com/features/david-freiburger-breaks-200-mph-club-el-mirage/
208.791 mph, beating a record in C/Blown Gas Coupe
https://www.motortrend.com/features/david-freiburger-breaks-200-mph-club-el-mirage/
Newbomb Turk
Well-Known Member
It can be. If I was serious and that’s what I had to use I’d send the block to 300 Below and get it cryogenically treated.
Looks like to be in C you'd be going small block or destroked big block or 361, 340/360 probably be good choices, If going B I'd drop a 440 crank in a 383 making 432-438 could even go 0.070" to 440 bore.
Ok well ****. Alex's 235 record bumped the 224 in C/CBGALT. SO, now with only at 8mph difference, there is no need to go thru the trouble. 2024 records are not yet in the book. Duh
Last edited:
NC Engine Builder
Grumpy Old Man
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Where can you look up the records?
They are in the rule book that's printed each year. Should be on www.SCTA-BNI.ORG also.
Or i could take a picture of something in in the book if you want
TT5.9mag
Two atmospheres are better than one
Freiburger’s fastest speed was 261.602 a while back. I think that’s still true.
https://www.motortrend.com/features/david-freiburger-bonneville-salt-flats-land-speed-camaro/
https://www.motortrend.com/features/david-freiburger-bonneville-salt-flats-land-speed-camaro/
harrisonm
Well-Known Member
0.030 over 340 with a custom 3.62 stroke crank = 372 CID.
Good heads, great cam.......
Good heads, great cam.......
And at those speeds it shows I don't need as much hp as that.
I did see a great video of Keith Turk discussing his Bonneville years. They got the aero good enough on that Camaro, that 800hp will go 260mph. Super jealous.
TT5.9mag
Two atmospheres are better than one
They failed a lot and learned a lot. That Camaro has been around the block a time or 10. At this point it’s a very well sorted car.
Agreed. From a $800 beater to something that full on works
This is the concept people use when building lakesters and streamliners. My friend has a highly modified Buick Straight 8 in his Lakester. In each class, certain modifications are allowed.
Newbomb Turk
Well-Known Member
This one is destroked for displacement class rules and RPM. Also has 13:1, ported head, custom cam and intake with twin Holley 2 barrels. It is getting more work done this winter, which may include EFI.
Newbomb Turk
Well-Known Member
mopar65
Well-Known Member
I say a carbed 6.1 twin turbo gen3 hemi. If you don't want to run the hemi. I just found a guy on Facebook market place selling a complete I think a R5P7 engine. I don't know the guy and know very little about this engine. So with that and your are interested in it I can send him your contact info. If you would like. Here is some pics of it I took off facebook.
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