When Chrysler built the Daytona's, why wasn't the MAXWedge 426III good enough for -

[greymouser7]

- NASCAR? One book says the HEMI came about because our Wedge didn't enough torque/HP on the top end of the high banks of the NASCAR tracks; & that the Ramchargers' developed the HEMI to make up for this deficiency.

We're talking about souped up, seven litre big blocks, I thought our wedge was very competitive against the other two Automakers.

The 440 six pack was competitive or faster than the 426 hemi in drag racing with the Cuda's and Dart's.(RIGHT?)...and this book I am reading is historically-quoting that our 70' E body 426CI HEMI cars were faster than the LS6 - 4" stroke - 454 in the quarter mile (around 13 seconds) when racing tuned - up stock cars.

I also thought that the MAX Wedge engines had high flowing heads.

Where did the need for the HEMI come in?

IQ52 says he can port wedge engines to make the same power level as HEMI engines of similar displacement - if not more.

GM gave up right?-69', 70' ...and Ford ran the 427 side-oiler or 427/8/9 Cobra Jet motor (what did Ford run??)

These race teams must have been porting their cylinder heads, and when they have the giant ports of the max wedge heads available, how in the hell can they not have the high rpm head flow and torque needed to still be competitive in NASCAR during this time period?.

-thanks for reading all that, this has been bugging me for some years

-WHY did they need the HEMI development? It seems like strategic -waaaay future thinking on Chrysler engineers' part except that the HEMI history write up describes a RUSH of development using much of the big block wedge's dimensions. - As if a rush was needed to stay competitive.

Thanks again for filling in the history gaps!

-Oh, the book I am reading is "The Best of HOTROD Magazine CHRYSLER MUSCLE CARS" with bonus pages from Car Craft Magazine.

:burnout: :cheers:

 

[dustinmoran91]

Its been awhile since i read my book but i believe the hemi was originally made for drag racing and the next year ford came out with the over head cam motors and then nhra shut both of them down saying it was a mistake allowing then to run the hemi the first year and so gm ruled the strip when both ford and chrysler pulled out to boycott the ruling. Not sure if this acurate or not?

 

[2 Darts]

Let me see if I can fill in some blanks.

1. The Daytona Charger was a 1969 mid-year introduction, first raced at the notorious inaugural race at Talladega. The 1969 model year began with the Charger 500 with its flat front grille and flush backlite.
2. The Hemi breathed better than the wedge right off the bat. Still does. Seen any wedge motors in Top Fuel or Funny Car?
3. The Gen-II hemi was fielded just in time for the 1964 Daytona 500, swept the top 7 places. It was available as a crate motor only until 1966 when it was offered in B-body cars.
4. Ford ran the 427 from 1963-1968. They ran the 429 from 69-70.
5. The 428 is in the same engine family as the 427, but shares no major parts. (Distributors and oil pumps are the only things that interchange IIRC.) The 428 was rated at 345 in the car. NHRA factored the motor to 360.
6. Development was rushed, IMHO because Chrysler wanted to take advantage of the element of surprise. It worked. Not only did they sweep Daytona, but made a farce of the '64 season. The engine was banned for '65.

 

[wolfhammer]

Let me see if I can fill in some blanks.

1. The Daytona Charger was a 1969 mid-year introduction, first raced at the notorious inaugural race at Talladega. The 1969 model year began with the Charger 500 with its flat front grille and flush backlite.
2. The Hemi breathed better than the wedge right off the bat. Still does. Seen any wedge motors in Top Fuel or Funny Car?
3. The Gen-II hemi was fielded just in time for the 1964 Daytona 500, swept the top 7 places. It was available as a crate motor only until 1966 when it was offered in B-body cars.
4. Ford ran the 427 from 1963-1968. They ran the 429 from 69-70.
5. The 428 is in the same engine family as the 427, but shares no major parts. (Distributors and oil pumps are the only things that interchange IIRC.) The 428 was rated at 345 in the car. NHRA factored the motor to 360.
6. Development was rushed, IMHO because Chrysler wanted to take advantage of the element of surprise. It worked. Not only did they sweep Daytona, but made a farce of the '64 season. The engine was banned for '65.

didn't Tony Nancey run a wedge in his rail???

 

[pagilman]

The above post is correct as far as the hemi breathing better, it was the top dog on nitro methane or alcohol because of that.

 

[67Dart273]

grey, you're mixing a heck of a lot of info in there that hasn't got much to do with the other. Daytonas, fer 'xample, came out LONG after the first stree hemis in 64

And you have to remember that "big head" technology just wasn't "there" in 64, none of the stuff we have today. While the max wedges were impressive, they required VERY special pieces, manifolds, heads, intakes and a fairly wild cam. The street hemis which were just as fast were a far milder engine to drive AT THE TIME.

I doubt the max wedges could EVER have met any smog requirements in 68 or later, and I have no idea how Chevy ever got the original Z28s to pass. I well remember a factory stock Z28 and how it ran, and "I think not."

Heck, maxies didn't even have carb heat or crossover ports in the heads.

And even though "some" sixpacks (which again weren't around in 64) could stay with a hemi, they were QUICKLY outpaced in a modified situation. AGAIN, this was long before some of the "big heads" that we have now were available.

 

[terzmo]

hemi pulls harder at 100 plus...and I never seen documentation of a stock 440 beating a stock 426 hemi

 

[rumblefish360]

First, remember the era that the cars were. Hilt in and the parts that were available for them.
Now, how many wedge headed engines do you see running 300+mph?

 

[2 Darts]

-
GM gave up right?-69', 70' ...and Ford ran the 427 side-oiler or 427/8/9 Cobra Jet motor (what did Ford run??)

Wasn't sure what to do with this one, Grey. GM gave up? The last GM car I saw in NASCAR before the aero wars was in 1966 or 67 at Atlanta. The inspector told the late 'Smokey' Yunick the Tech Inspector refused to let him run the car, citing 26 different rule violations.
Smokey told the inspector to make it 27, fired up the car, and drove off leaving the gas tank at the inspector's feet.
Chevrolet came back in 73 with the Laguna S3 model and later switched over to the Monte Carlo. The rest of GM came back (save Caddy) running corporate (Chevy) engines. The famous fight at Daytona followed a wreck between two Oldsmobiles in 1979.

Ford's 427 was a boat anchor, albeit a very powerful one. This is the same motor that went into Ford's LeMans program and the 427 Cobra. The closest relative of the 427 is the 406 of 62-63½. We ran a 427 in a short track car for two seasons (bored and de-stroked to 410 CID). Other than a period where we were tearing out oil pans on the high banks at Nashville, the engine only needed a rebuild half-way through the season.
The 428 was available in intermediates and pony cars. It was standard equipment in the 66 & 67 Thunderbird. It was never developed to the extent of the 440.

There are actually two versions of the 429. The most familiar, the Thunderjet, was available in everything in the Ford and Mercury line except the Maverick and Comet. It was standard in the 69-70 Thunderbird.
The other 429 was the Boss 429. The cylinder heads are not related in any way to the Boss 351 & 302. In fact, comparing the regular 429 with the Boss 429 is like comparing the 426 wedge with the 426 Hemi. The Boss 429 was a hand built engine installed in a handful of 69 & 70 Mustangs for homologation purposes. It also has hemispherical combustion chambers. The crate version of the motor was more expensive than we could justify, so we left the Ford camp for the cheap environs of Chevrolet.