When should you upgrade torsion bars?

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Joshua Suehs

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IM upgrading my rear springs to Espo’s 6peaf +1’s and I have been reading a lot of the guys that go with 1” torsion bars. Is that only for big blocks or is that wise for a guy like me who has a build 360? 73 dart swinger... let me know what your thoughts are. Wondering if it is worth it to upgrade while I’m doing the rears or if it will just make it super stiff and undrivable.
 
IM upgrading my rear springs to Espo’s 6peaf +1’s and I have been reading a lot of the guys that go with 1” torsion bars. Is that only for big blocks or is that wise for a guy like me who has a build 360? 73 dart swinger... let me know what your thoughts are. Wondering if it is worth it to upgrade while I’m doing the rears or if it will just make it super stiff and undrivable.

One of the best upgrades I ever made after subframe connectors to my 73 with a 5.9
You won't be sorry.
Call P-S-T for a member discount on the 1.03 bars.
 
How do the different manufacturers's 1 inch bars ccompare?
Which would be softer and which may be stiffer?
 
For pretty much everything but drag strip its best to increase the front roll resistance more than the rear.
upgrading my rear springs to Espo’s 6peaf +1’s
By inference, its would seem you've increase the rear spring rate.
Therefore it is important to increase the front rates, and more so because the chassis will be sitting higher - increasing the roll center and center of gravity's hieght.
Stiffening the rear increases the tendency to oversteer conditions. In other words, fishtailing and/or doing a 180 when you least want it.
 
As TrailBeast mentioned sub frame connectors made such a big improvement to handling (cornering) and took out the flex in the body. By saying that just driving down the road and going over some uneven road with some dips where as before you would feel the car flex over this section of road where as now the car is more stable and tracks really well. Under load is pretty good as well as the car doesn't buckle, PST is the brand name of the Vendor selling the bars.
 
IM upgrading my rear springs to Espo’s 6peaf +1’s and I have been reading a lot of the guys that go with 1” torsion bars. Is that only for big blocks or is that wise for a guy like me who has a build 360? 73 dart swinger... let me know what your thoughts are. Wondering if it is worth it to upgrade while I’m doing the rears or if it will just make it super stiff and undrivable.

I wouldn’t build a Mopar without using 1” or larger torsion bars.

Here’s the deal. The factory cars came with bias ply tires. Even compared to a BFG T/A or Cooper Cobra radial the traction those stock bias ply’s had was marginal. So if you run radials, you already need much stiffer torsion bars.

And that’s even before you consider the factory set these cars up to understeer, or that they undersprung the front end even well beyond that because that was the trend at the time- smooth, floaty suspension and abysmal handling.

How do the different manufacturers's 1 inch bars ccompare?
Which would be softer and which may be stiffer?

Very little way to know that without actually testing the bars themselves. You’d have to know the spring constant of the metal used to forge the torsion bars. Most of the wheel rates are actually calculated with a somewhat generic spring constant.

You can look at the published specs, Firm Feel advertises their 1” bars as being 195 lb/in. Last I checked Just Suspension didn’t advertise their actual spring rate, but I ran a set of those on my Duster for a bit and they were still fairly soft, definitely less than 195 lb/in. Too soft for me to use again, and I have a small block car with a decent amount of aluminum parts and manual everything. PST’s 1.03” bars are around 230 lb/in, and I wouldn’t run anything smaller than that for a street car.

Realistically for the same diameter most of the metals that would be used would provide a wheel rate within 10-20 lb/in. You could probably do something custom that would vary more than that but the off the shelf stuff will usually be in that window. And unless you specifically test the bars you receive that’s the ballpark you’re working in anyway.
 
As TrailBeast mentioned sub frame connectors made such a big improvement to handling (cornering) and took out the flex in the body. By saying that just driving down the road and going over some uneven road with some dips where as before you would feel the car flex over this section of road where as now the car is more stable and tracks really well. PST is the brand name of the Vendor selling the bars.

Are the subframe connectors bolt on? What is the difference between that and adding a sway bar?
 
Mopars are notoriously undersprung. Even in an era where "good" handling cars scraped the chrome off their door handles going around a corner, Mopars were considered inadequate. Beefier torsion bars help solve this.

When you add stiffer springs to the rear, you make the handling worse, because more of the "roll" experienced in cornering occurs at the front, further limiting the tire's ability to get you around the corner.

So unless your Dart is going to be a drag-only car, you will have a much better driving experience with bigger torsion bars.
 
Are the subframe connectors bolt on? What is the difference between that and adding a sway bar?
Yes there are different brands some are bolt on and some are welded some are both . Choose your poison ! Sub frame connectors tie in your chassis from your gear box mount frame where your torsion bars feed into back to your front spring hangers live. Others will chime in and will give better explanations on both components.
 
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Subframe connectors stiffen the chassis, reducing flex, and allowing the suspension to better control movement. Anti-sway bars affect suspension movement.
 
Mancini Racing has them . Have a look on here there are some posts that have some pictures. Read up to see what's needed as I think by memory you might need to relocate the hand brake cable.Go to your search bar top right hand corner and type in sub frame connectors.
 
I have Mancini XHD leafsprings, U.S. Car Tool subframe connectors and PST 1.03 torsion bars on my 1970 340 Dart and it handles great, compared to stock 1970 it handles like a formula1 car! So in other words replace your t-bars with 1.03 bars even if the old ones are not wore out, You will be happy

Jeff
 
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The bolt-in style subframe connectors should really be welded in. They’ve improved the design some from the way they used to bolt in, but there’s enough twist in the chassis to require them to be welded in for a truly permanent solution. You can bolt them in yourself and then take the car somewhere to have them welded in. Doing it that way may open up more options for welders just because there isn’t any fabrication or fitting that has to be done by the welder, just welding.

The US Cartool connectors are nice, but they require 10x or more the amount of welded as any other kind of subframe connector. And really the car needs to be fully stripped to install them, preferably on a lift or rotisserie too. You can get just as much chassis stiffening out of tubular connectors with significantly less welding required. I’ve done both the US Cartool connectors and made my own connectors from rectangular tubing. It was far less work to make my own and install them than it was to just install the US Cartool connectors. I like how they look more factory than the tubular kind, but I wouldn’t use them again.
 
IM upgrading my rear springs to Espo’s 6peaf +1’s and I have been reading a lot of the guys that go with 1” torsion bars. Is that only for big blocks or is that wise for a guy like me who has a build 360? 73 dart swinger... let me know what your thoughts are. Wondering if it is worth it to upgrade while I’m doing the rears or if it will just make it super stiff and undrivable.

My question to you is was the car a slant /6 to start with?
If you liked the ride of the /6 then you swung in a small block, upgrading the bars to 340 bars would keep the ride quality the same or at least very close.

If it was a V8 car to start with and you thought the up and down movement was lacking, then a 1 step up thicker bar would be your answer.

The T bars largely are responsible for up and down motion.
 
If you want roll resistance, install a big anti-sway bar. If you want a stiff ride, install big T-bars. The preceding is an exaggeration, but it gives you the basic idea. If you are building a track car, you want both. But for a street car built for regular driving, a moderate spring upgrade and a sway bar is a better package than stiff springs and no sway bar. My slant six convertible is running on stock springs with a Hellwig hollow front bar and KYB shocks, and it handles fine on twisty roads, considering its modest speed capability, and has great compliance for less-than-perfect road surfaces (which is pretty much everywhere in California). My SB fastback has .890 T-bars ("big block" size), HD rear springs, and front and rear sway bars -- this is much less T-bar than people are typically advocating, but the only reason I would go bigger is to reduce nose dive under braking (this was noticeable on the track). The funny thing is, on a typical mountain switchback, the convertible can actually get around quicker, simply because it has power steering -- the manual steering on the FB is just too slow. At high speeds the FB is more stable, but how fast can you go on public roads? Setting your street car up for optimal cornering at 100mph is kind of pointless, IMHO, unless you are just in it for bragging rights.
 
IM upgrading my rear springs to Espo’s 6peaf +1’s and I have been reading a lot of the guys that go with 1” torsion bars. Is that only for big blocks or is that wise for a guy like me who has a build 360? 73 dart swinger... let me know what your thoughts are. Wondering if it is worth it to upgrade while I’m doing the rears or if it will just make it super stiff and undrivable.

When? ASAP
Worth it? Absolutely yes..
Super stiff? No, that would be the shocks.
Undriveable? No, the new springs and slanty bars will make it almost undriveable.
For 360s? Yes, even with an aluminum top end, and the battery moved to the trunk.

The long rear end overhang makes Swingers notoriously fishtail/ accidental 180* prone. And you can't put enough sideways rubber in the factory tubs to help you with that.
For street; about all you can do with that 110"wb pendulum is to; tune the front;don't go into the turns too hot;get a manual shift which won't downshift on you in mid-turn;and get a DP carb so you can control the dang rear wheel speed, which will help control the powerslide. The rest is on your experience.
 
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Alright, so I ordered the 6 lead Espo’s with +1” and I ordered the 1.08” torsion bars from PST with new bushings and clips. My adjusters are free so I will reuse those. What else would you recommend to make the install of the springs and bars easier. I have hear Mancini has a good set of shackles, and i know I am going to need a new set of u bolts. Where do you guys order ubolts and bushings and crap like that? Lots to choose from and don’t want to have issues shortly after installing. Thanks for all the advice thus far and thanks for your responses!

Also, after I install everything I plan on heading down to my buddies fav shop to have some custom made sub frame connectors installed. Sadly enough I have to wait for the snow to melt...so it may be awhile...
 
Alright, so I ordered the 6 lead Espo’s with +1” and I ordered the 1.08” torsion bars from PST with new bushings and clips. My adjusters are free so I will reuse those. What else would you recommend to make the install of the springs and bars easier. I have hear Mancini has a good set of shackles, and i know I am going to need a new set of u bolts. Where do you guys order ubolts and bushings and crap like that? Lots to choose from and don’t want to have issues shortly after installing. Thanks for all the advice thus far and thanks for your responses!

Also, after I install everything I plan on heading down to my buddies fav shop to have some custom made sub frame connectors installed. Sadly enough I have to wait for the snow to melt...so it may be awhile...

Good call the subframe connectors should really be welded in for the full benefit, I'm thinking about doing it this summer to my car along with a strengthened lower radiator support and/or front and rear torque boxes. Probably torque boxes first I'm pushing 450 HP which isn't crazy but more than any factory 340 had and they came with them.

I got u-bolts off Mancini, you used to be able to find correct-size ones at regular parts stores but not anymore. Plus the Mancini ones are made like the original Mopar ones with the flattened waffle-pattern section where it holds the axle tube. For bushings it depends on what you want (rubber, poly) and for which parts.
 
Torque spec for the u bolts is 45ft lbs. It doesn't seem like enough, but overtightened springs will not work correctly. Final torque should be done with all the weight on the springs.
 
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