Who has done a 5.7 with a833 4 speed Overdrive ?

[Daniel Pickar]

Hi guys,
Looking for some input from those who have recently swapped a a833 4 speed with a 5.7 hemi into a 74 Duster. I'm familiar with most tech on what to do like trimming the input shaft, specific flywheel, hydraulic throw out etc. Just looking for general suggestions on what to do/not to do on this swap.

Out of all my searching I couldnt find much which trans mount will work or if I need to modify the Holley mounts they designed for the 727 etc.

Also the last thing is I can't find much info on if I can just use the timing cover on the factory 2013 5.7L truck engine from a 1500. It seems like the alternator location is on top so there shouldn't be any issues with clearance?

Thanks for your time!

 

[DionR]

I’m not exactly clear on your question about the trans mount. Are you using Holley mounts? The same Holley 727 mount will fit an A833 so the Holley trans mount should work for the 4 speed without mods. But the Holley motor mounts move the motor/trans forward about 1.75” so the clutch arm mount and shifter might/will be an issue.

The issue with the top mount alternator is the intake. No idea if the 5.7 car intake will work, but for sure the car 6.4 intake will not. The truck 5.7 intake points the TB straight up and feels like it would be difficult to make a filter fit. The truck 6.4 is better, but still points at the hood.

 

[408 swinger]

And to add to Dion's point on intakes, the 6.4 truck intake will work with the 5.7 truck timing cover, BUT, it is also the tallest of the gen 3 intakes. Hood clearance definitely gonna be an issue.

 

[Daniel Pickar]

I’m not exactly clear on your question about the trans mount. Are you using Holley mounts? The same Holley 727 mount will fit an A833 so the Holley trans mount should work for the 4 speed without mods. But the Holley motor mounts move the motor/trans forward about 1.75” so the clutch arm mount and shifter might/will be an issue.

The issue with the top mount alternator is the intake. No idea if the 5.7 car intake will work, but for sure the car 6.4 intake will not. The truck 5.7 intake points the TB straight up and feels like it would be difficult to make a filter fit. The truck 6.4 is better, but still points at the hood.

Thank you this is good info. In this case would you use different motor mounts? I haven't bought any components yet so I haven't committed to anything yet. Should I go with some different motor mounts so the 4 speed shifter is in the factory location?


Ok makes sense on the truck timing cover. I couldn't find anything online about it so maybe I will just buy the Holley timing cover to simplify and ensure good clearance.

 

[DionR]

I guess it depends on what you want. The Holley mounts allow for an oil filter adapter so a remote filter kit isn’t needed, OEM mount AC compressor and (most importantly??) the 6.4 intake fits without a notch on the firewall.

I am doing a T56 so I have to build a new crossmember anyways so it isn’t a big deal for me.

Far as I know, no one has done a 4 speed swap with the Holley mounts. My best guess is, a custom shifter mount and rods with a hydraulic clutch kit would make it work.

If you don’t want AC nor the SRV option of a 6.4 car intake, maybe stick with the TTI mounts. Should bolt in and allow the use of all stock 4 speed stuff. Still have to mess with the oil filter, but it’s not new territory like the 4 speed shifter with the Holley mounts is. Schumaker has mounts as well. Only real trick is matching your current k-frame to which ever manufacturer makes mounts that fit it. US Car Tool has mounts as well.

 

[Daniel Pickar]

I guess it depends on what you want. The Holley mounts allow for an oil filter adapter so a remote filter kit isn’t needed, OEM mount AC compressor and (most importantly??) the 6.4 intake fits without a notch on the firewall.

I am doing a T56 so I have to build a new crossmember anyways so it isn’t a big deal for me.

Far as I know, no one has done a 4 speed swap with the Holley mounts. My best guess is, a custom shifter mount and rods with a hydraulic clutch kit would make it work.

If you don’t want AC nor the SRV option of a 6.4 car intake, maybe stick with the TTI mounts. Should bolt in and allow the use of all stock 4 speed stuff. Still have to mess with the oil filter, but it’s not new territory like the 4 speed shifter with the Holley mounts is. Schumaker has mounts as well. Only real trick is matching your current k-frame to which ever manufacturer makes mounts that fit it. US Car Tool has mounts as well.

Man this is good info I haven't found online. I will definitely go with the TTI or other brand mounts instead of the Holleys so I keep the factory shift location. I don't want to mess with that. I'll mess with the remote oil filter instead. I'm not going to deal with A/C at this point either so I will go with the 6.4 intake for clearance then. I got a 5.7 complete engine with 100K miles on it for $750 so I have some extra money for intake, cam, etc. Sounds like I need to omit the MDS as well.

 

[DionR]

I will go with the 6.4 intake for clearance then.

Not following. The car 6.4 intake has the SRV module on the back of the intake that doesn't clear the firewall if the motor is in the stock location. And the truck 6.4 intake points up at an angle, but it does put the SRV module on the front of the motor so it does clear the firewall. So not sure what you mean by "for clearance".

Sounds like I need to omit the MDS as well.

I really need to since you have a stick. Maybe if you ran one of the late model auto's, you could keep the MDS if you really wanted to. You could probably disable it with a tune and leave the lifters and solenoids alone but I wouldn't.

 

[Daniel Pickar]

Not following. The car 6.4 intake has the SRV module on the back of the intake that doesn't clear the firewall if the motor is in the stock location. And the truck 6.4 intake points up at an angle, but it does put the SRV module on the front of the motor so it does clear the firewall. So not sure what you mean by "for clearance".



I really need to since you have a stick. Maybe if you ran one of the late model auto's, you could keep the MDS if you really wanted to. You could probably disable it with a tune and leave the lifters and solenoids alone but I wouldn't.

I will omit the SRV option and A/C and use the 6.4 intake so I can use the TTI mounts. That will give me adequate firewall clearance is what I meant. So I will need the truck intake then anyway.. I will just have to deal with the upward pointing intake then. Do you have a recommendation of a camshaft for a performance upgrade and mds delete?

 

[DionR]

I will omit the SRV option and A/C and use the 6.4 intake so I can use the TTI mounts. That will give me adequate firewall clearance is what I meant. So I will need the truck intake then anyway.. I will just have to deal with the upward pointing intake then. Do you have a recommendation of a camshaft for a performance upgrade and mds delete?

I assume you plan to keep the truck TC cover then?

And to be clear, it is only the car 6.4 intake that has an issue with the SRV module. The truck 6.4 intake has the module on the front of the intake, so if you run that intake you can keep the functionality.

I don't have any experience with aftermarket cams, sorry. I have a stock 6.4 non-MDS cam to go into my 5.7 because it is relatively cheap and I think it's the cam the 5.7 should have come with in the factory R/T cars. But I haven't done anything with aftermarket stuff nor have I even researched them.

 

[Daniel Pickar]

I assume you plan to keep the truck TC cover then?

And to be clear, it is only the car 6.4 intake that has an issue with the SRV module. The truck 6.4 intake has the module on the front of the intake, so if you run that intake you can keep the functionality.

I don't have any experience with aftermarket cams, sorry. I have a stock 6.4 non-MDS cam to go into my 5.7 because it is relatively cheap and I think it's the cam the 5.7 should have come with in the factory R/T cars. But I haven't done anything with aftermarket stuff nor have I even researched them.

I will try and keep the the truck timing cover and see how it does for hood clearance with the alternator when I test fit it. Worst case I'll get the Holley one. I was also going to get the Holley fuel tank system and terminator X to go along with it. What are you going to run?

Sounds good on the cam. That was my plan, to just do the 6.4 non-mds cam, tti engine mounts/headers and the 6.4 intake for the 5.7 mods. From my research that seems to be the most practical for easy hp mods.

 

[DionR]

I will try and keep the the truck timing cover and see how it does for hood clearance with the alternator when I test fit it. Worst case I'll get the Holley one.

The Holley FEAD setup is cool but too expensive for my blood. And (I think) the only time it would be really useful is if you wanted to run AC. Cost wise, I think a car TC cover would work fine, minus a notch to the frame rail flange for the alternator. You can run the car TC cover without the AC compressor, just takes a shorter belt.

What are you going to run?

I have a 2010 Ram PCM I am going to run. I have a PCM out of an '09 Challenger as well that I was going to run but best I can tell the car 5.7 PCM's can't work the SRV and I want that integrated. I have a couple of engine harnesses, the one I plan to use is from an '08 Charger SRT8 but it will need the VVT and SRV wires added plus I will need to verify the rest of the pins match my PCM.

Sounds good on the cam. That was my plan, to just do the 6.4 non-mds cam, tti engine mounts/headers and the 6.4 intake for the 5.7 mods. From my research that seems to be the most practical for easy hp mods.

It's what I wanted to do to my '15 Challenger R/T, 6.4 intake/cam/exhaust. And I figured when since I sold that car and was doing a 5.7 into a Duster, why not do the same plan for the most part. So I have a car 6.4 intake and cam plus Holley swap headers. I figure if it only get's me to 425 crank HP, in a lighter car it should be as fun as a Scat Pack.

 

[DionR]

I should add that I would love to see someone run a truck 6.4 intake. Seems like a great solution to the SRV module interference with the firewall, but no idea how easy an air filter setup will be.

Oh, and I doubt you will have issues with the alternator hitting the hood if you use the truck TC cover. People have been running the earlier truck motors for years and I don't remember anyone complaining about the alternator hitting the hood. Not a promise, you should check either way, just not something I expect to crash.

 

[Daniel Pickar]

The Holley FEAD setup is cool but too expensive for my blood. And (I think) the only time it would be really useful is if you wanted to run AC. Cost wise, I think a car TC cover would work fine, minus a notch to the frame rail flange for the alternator. You can run the car TC cover without the AC compressor, just takes a shorter belt.

It's what I wanted to do to my '15 Challenger R/T, 6.4 intake/cam/exhaust. And I figured when since I sold that car and was doing a 5.7 into a Duster, why not do the same plan for the most part. So I have a car 6.4 intake and cam plus Holley swap headers. I figure if it only get's me to 425 crank HP, in a lighter car it should be as fun as a Scat Pac

Ok great info there. I'll roll with what I have. Sounds like you have lots of options!

Right on! Sounds like we'll have similar builds. I'll see what I can do with finding a truck 6.4 intake. I think it will work. My strong suit is welding and fab so I'll see if I can cook up something to solve the cold air intake. I thought the same thing! I just got done building a snorty 383 for my wife's Dart and had $6300 in the motor. I can get that horsepower for less money and perhaps a bit more reliable with the 5.7 so that's why I'm doing this project for my Duster!

 

[Daniel Pickar]

On another note, I'm just going to run the stock wiring harness for the ignition and lights. Are there any foreseeable issues with doing that?

 

[AJ/FormS]

Notta chance
would I run the Factory A833od box with that engine.
The od gear is IMHO extremely fragile. and when it blows up, you have no control of where the flak goes. If it goes thu the cluster it will wipe that out too, and now you are out shopping for another box.
Plus, you know, the ratios are so far apart.
3.09-1.67-1.00-.73od, splits of .54-.60-.73 into od.
So whatever you rev it to in First gear, the Rs will fall to .54 of that when you hit Second.. If your torque doesn't pick up until say 3800 rpm, yur gonna want to rev first to 3800/ .54=7040
and Going from Second to Third, 3800/.60= 6330.
When you get used to that, your instinct will be to slam it into fourth, and instantly the inertia of the flywheel will disintegrate your od gear. Bye-Bye trans.
Ask me how I know, after three of them ended up on my junk shelf.

If you insist on using that trans, then I highly advise you to install a lock out on overdrive, to force you to think about that poor 20tooth gear.

 

[Daniel Pickar]

Notta chance
would I run the Factory A833od box with that engine.
The od gear is IMHO extremely fragile. and when it blows up, you have no control of where the flak goes. If it goes thu the cluster it will wipe that out too, and now you are out shopping for another box.
Plus, you know, the ratios are so far apart.
3.09-1.67-1.00-.73od, splits of .54-.60-.73 into od.
So whatever you rev it to in First gear, the Rs will fall to .54 of that when you hit Second.. If your torque doesn't pick up until say 3800 rpm, yur gonna want to rev first to 3800/ .54=7040
and Going from Second to Third, 3800/.60= 6330.
When you get used to that, your instinct will be to slam it into fourth, and instantly the inertia of the flywheel will disintegrate your od gear. Bye-Bye trans.
Ask me how I know, after three of them ended up on my junk shelf.

If you insist on using that trans, then I highly advise you to install a lock out on overdrive, to force you to think about that poor 20tooth gear.

I can imagine that being a problem. I have a friend that has a few of them. I will avoid the aluminum case if possible and seems like there are some things I can do to beef it up. Will also look into an OD lockout for racing!

 

[AJ/FormS]

The aluminum cased A833 is fine for all sub 430 hp cars like mine, on street tires.
In my case, I had a machine shop bore the front pin-hole out and press in a steel bushing, just cuz.
But in about 2004/05 I stopped using those od boxes, on account of the attrition..
I switched to the Commando, and a GVod behind it; and I use the GV as a splitter.
the ratios are ;
3.09-1.92-1.40-1.09(3od)-.78 od. splits of; .62-.73-.78-.72.. compared to the od-box at
3.09---1.67---1.00- .73od ........... splits of; .54---.60---.73
At that time I also switched to using a Passon alloy box.

If you run 4.30s for racing, your roadgears will be
13.29-7.18-4.30; and 5000@93, 6000@113, 6500@122 ..Whereas for me, with 3.55s;
10.97-8.56-6.82-5.32, and I hit 93 in Second-over@ 6160; splits of .78-.80-.78
But my car, besides the one successful Eighth mile run, is exclusively street driven.

The 833od/4.30s might cruise at 65= 2640
to the Commando/3.55s/GV .. at 65= 2240

Jus saying.

 

[DionR]

On another note, I'm just going to run the stock wiring harness for the ignition and lights. Are there any foreseeable issues with doing that?

Couple of thoughts on the stock wiring.

The stock ignition has 2 circuits, run and start, and they don't both have power at one time. So you have to tie them together so the PCM has power in both run and start. The other issue is that when the key goes from run to start there is a point where neither has power and this can trip up the PCM as it thinks the key was turned off and then back on again. Not really sure if the Terminator has issue with that, but I think the stock PCM can.

Don't run the alternator power through the amp gauge like stock. I would get rid of the amp gauge and run a voltmeter.

If you add a PDC, I would run the headlights off relays in it. Lights are so much better and the headlight switch only has to carry the trigger amps for the relays instead of all the amps to the headlights.

Other than that, I can't think of anything. I am planning to run a stock setup with the above changes.

Notta chance
would I run the Factory A833od box with that engine.
The od gear is IMHO extremely fragile. and when it blows up, you have no control of where the flak goes. If it goes thu the cluster it will wipe that out too, and now you are out shopping for another box.
Plus, you know, the ratios are so far apart.
3.09-1.67-1.00-.73od, splits of .54-.60-.73 into od.
So whatever you rev it to in First gear, the Rs will fall to .54 of that when you hit Second.. If your torque doesn't pick up until say 3800 rpm, yur gonna want to rev first to 3800/ .54=7040
and Going from Second to Third, 3800/.60= 6330.
When you get used to that, your instinct will be to slam it into fourth, and instantly the inertia of the flywheel will disintegrate your od gear. Bye-Bye trans.
Ask me how I know, after three of them ended up on my junk shelf.

If you insist on using that trans, then I highly advise you to install a lock out on overdrive, to force you to think about that poor 20tooth gear.

I agree, but only to a point. I have been driving a A833OD in my '74 for years now. Last spring I even found out it is the lower spline count one. Now my Duster isn't any kind of a horsepower build so it is kind of an apples to oranges comparison, but I have yet to frag the OD gear.

I think part of it is that driving style has a big impact. I know of people that can destroy an TR6060 with a stock 5.7 and others that have made multiple passes on a T5 running some quick times. Not to say you (AJ) can't drive a stick, only that based on what I have read over the years you are much harder on the trans than I am. I have "raced" my A833OD and never even got into 4th on the strip, and I have never rolled raced where I would need a 3-4 shift at maximum aggression. But I have passed people on the highway where I have gone from 3rd to 4th and it has been fine so far. This is even with a Dual Friction CF clutch, which one guy on here swears will kill transmissions.

In addition, I think the splits are fine for my build. And I think they would work just fine for a G3. Certainly not ideal, I think a wide ratio T56 Magnum is the king for me, but far from unusable.

That said, I think there are much better transmissions, but sometimes you run what you have.

 

[Daniel Pickar]

The aluminum cased A833 is fine for all sub 430 hp cars like mine, on street tires.
In my case, I had a machine shop bore the front pin-hole out and press in a steel bushing, just cuz.
But in about 2004/05 I stopped using those od boxes, on account of the attrition..
I switched to the Commando, and a GVod behind it; and I use the GV as a splitter.
the ratios are ;
3.09-1.92-1.40-1.09(3od)-.78 od. splits of; .62-.73-.78-.72.. compared to the od-box at
3.09---1.67---1.00- .73od ........... splits of; .54---.60---.73
At that time I also switched to using a Passon alloy box.

If you run 4.30s for racing, your roadgears will be
13.29-7.18-4.30; and 5000@93, 6000@113, 6500@122 ..Whereas for me, with 3.55s;
10.97-8.56-6.82-5.32, and I hit 93 in Second-over@ 6160; splits of .78-.80-.78
But my car, besides the one successful Eighth mile run, is exclusively street driven.

The 833od/4.30s might cruise at 65= 2640
to the Commando/3.55s/GV .. at 65= 2240

Jus saying.

I'm sure I won't be much more than around 430 hp with my 5.7. I do understand there are better transmissions out there but for ease of use/availability/no floor mods necessary is why I'm going with the a833OD. The 4 speed is only going to cost me $150 so can't complain about that! That being said my priority is drivability at highway speeds for this car. I do have a handful of 3rd members in my garage and planned on running 3.23s. Realistically I'll go to the track once or twice a year. I know that is kind of lame but with that gearing I probably won't even make it into OD in the 1/4 mile.

 

[Daniel Pickar]

Couple of thoughts on the stock wiring.

The stock ignition has 2 circuits, run and start, and they don't both have power at one time. So you have to tie them together so the PCM has power in both run and start. The other issue is that when the key goes from run to start there is a point where neither has power and this can trip up the PCM as it thinks the key was turned off and then back on again. Not really sure if the Terminator has issue with that, but I think the stock PCM can.

Don't run the alternator power through the amp gauge like stock. I would get rid of the amp gauge and run a voltmeter.

If you add a PDC, I would run the headlights off relays in it. Lights are so much better and the headlight switch only has to carry the trigger amps for the relays instead of all the amps to the headlights.

Other than that, I can't think of anything. I am planning to run a stock setup with the above changes.

Great info. I did check, the Terminator X does work with stock ignition as is, so no problem there. 100% will go with a voltmeter. I was looking at those Intellitronix direct replacement gauge clusters as a replacement as I like the idea of digital gauges. I have read some negative things about them but overall people seem to be pretty happy with them. I think I will add a PDC and relays for lights. Thanks a bunch for your expertise Dion.

 

[DionR]

I'm sure I won't be much more than around 430 hp with my 5.7. I do understand there are better transmissions out there but for ease of use/availability/no floor mods necessary is why I'm going with the a833OD. The 4 speed is only going to cost me $150 so can't complain about that! That being said my priority is drivability at highway speeds for this car. I do have a handful of 3rd members in my garage and planned on running 3.23s. Realistically I'll go to the track once or twice a year. I know that is kind of lame but with that gearing I probably won't even make it into OD in the 1/4 mile.

I like the A833OD and 3.21 gears in my '74. Cruises on the highway great, fun to drive. Not a bad combination for someone that isn't looking for every 10th in the 1/4 mile. I can only guess it will be that much better with 100 or so HP more than I have.

 

[Daniel Pickar]

I like the A833OD and 3.21 gears in my '74. Cruises on the highway great, fun to drive. Not a bad combination for someone that isn't looking for every 10th in the 1/4 mile. I can only guess it will be that much better with 100 or so HP more than I have.

Great to hear! What is your tac at 70 mph? Thats the setup I'm looking for in my 74!

 

[AJ/FormS]

I probably won't even make it into OD in the 1/4 mile.

You better hope you don't!, and hope you don't accidentally try, because that little 20 tooth gear will blow up, and possibly take the rest of the trans with it.
>But it gets worse; if the trans blows up at a buck whatever, it could lock the trans up solid, and if you don't clutch it fast enough, you could be
"upside down, backwards, and on fire" as John Force once said.
>But it gets even worse. If you break it at WOT, you better have a rev-limiter, cuz your revs will climb so fast, you may never get your foot off the gas fast enough to not do engine damage, When the valve-springs lose it, the lifters will pump up, and it's entirely possible that the valves will get a ****-kicking from the pistons; and that would cost you an engine.
Like I said; notta chance would I run that trans in your application. You are just inviting catastrophe.
I broke three of those in about a year, all on the street, and without any traction aide, other than the SureGrip and those lousy BFGs that everybody likes to rag on.
One of those A833od's, I busted with a low-compression factory 1973 318, with nothing but a 4bbl and headers........ and it wasn't even at WOT

Any factory Mopar 4-speed will fit into that OD bellhouse with just a machined centering ring installed on the retainer. I swapped at least one example of every 1x23 A833 trans into that opening that Mopar ever built, and multiple times. I got so good at swapping, my record is 17 minutes on a 4-post hoist, and that includes dropping the 3" duals and the GVod. Badaboom. and unless you got a small output shaft on your od box, they all use the same driveshaft, shifter, and X-member.
I get that you have a budget, but IMO, for you, the risks for catastrophe are just too high.

BTW, the right gears to run .73od are, IMO, 3.73s minimum. Running with 3.23s will get you down to 65=1900.. It doesn't take a big cam to still be in reversion at 1900, so, don't be expecting fantastic fuel-economy. To go 93 in the Eighth, I run a 230/237/110 cam, and reversion cleans up by 2400. At 2000, it ain't all that bad, but, my current combo gets the same fuel-mileage at 2200 as it does at 2400, so I run 65=2240rpm, cuz I like 2240@65 lol. the engine is quiet, and seems happy. The slower you rev it, the more critical Cruize-timing will be. I run somewhere between 50 and 60 degrees, depending on terrain and weather. As always; your results may vary.

Just saying, what works for me, friend. Your results may vary. I'm not, as some will say, telling you what you gotta do. Just offering what has worked for me, and trying to save you grief, cuz I already blew a lotta stuff up .

 

[DionR]

Great to hear! What is your tac at 70 mph? Thats the setup I'm looking for in my 74!

View attachment 1716316135

With a 25.7" tire, I run about 2000 at 65 mph and just under 2200 at 70 mph.

 

[DionR]

It doesn't take a big cam to still be in reversion at 1900, so, don't be expecting fantastic fuel-economy.

With a G3 and EFI, it's not a problem. The factory setup with a 5.7/6.4 and 6M runs at 1500 rpm at 65 mph and 1700 at 75 mph, way under your threshold. With 3.21 gears, smaller tires and an A833OD, it will actually be turning faster than the factory planned.