Why Carb and non OD a Gen 3?

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I was on the fence about the OD swap, but I am going ahead with it pretty soon on Vixen. The world class Rustang T5 will be a good match for the slant 6 and will allow me to cruise nicely. I completely get what you're saying though. It took me a while to get to where I am in my decision process.

I've been on the OD bandwagon from pretty early on. The very first time I put my Duster back on the road in '93 or so, it had an A833OD. Truthfully, it was at least in part to that was the trans I found that I could afford. But at the time, it wasn't unusual to drive from Colville to Spokane and the Duster was a driver, not a show car, so I found myself really happy to have the OD gear. Since then, as long as I have owned the car, it has had an A833OD in it. I've never even entertained looking for a standard 4 speed. I certainly want better ratio splits, but refuse to look at options that don't include an OD gear.

And to be clear, my Duster still isn't a show car. While it is cleaner now than then, and I do take it to shows once in a while, its primary purpose to me is to drive it. Tarmac moving under me is gold.
 
Really good point. Comes down to what people want out of their rig.

I live 30 minutes from the "big town" of Spokane, Washington so almost any use of my car involves at least 30 minutes at 60+ mph. That's certainly within the two hour drive window, but it's enough for me to say I want OD. Even if I lived in a bigger town and ever got on the freeway, or maybe even a main road that had a speed limit of 50+ mph, I would probably want OD. But that's me, I just don't like the motor spinning at 3K rpm. Thankfully I am not everybody, that would be boring.

I might add that another "for me" reason is mileage. The better the fuel economy an OD gives means that I can enjoy the car more and drive it further. Not everyone has that limitation, and it is somewhat self imposed, but it is still a limitation for me. For some, economy is pointless because 10 mpg isn't much better than the 8 mpg the car gets without OD, making OD kind of pointless. And some rides are rough enough that driving it more than 30 minutes at a time is unpleasant, so why would they want to drive it more anyway. And for some the point isn't to drive it, it's to go fast or look good, all valid. But my goal is to make my Duster something I can enjoy as much as I can which means driving it all that I can.

To each their own.
That’s exactly how I am, I want to set my car up to enjoy driving it all the time not just the occasional Sunday morning. I’d rather get a new school Challenger than just have a nice car sit.
 
That’s exactly how I am, I want to set my car up to enjoy driving it all the time not just the occasional Sunday morning. I’d rather get a new school Challenger than just have a nice car sit.

After having a 2015 R/T 6M, I've got to say a new Challenger is a great driver. It's kind of the target for my Duster. In theory, with the 5.7 and a wide ratio T56 and the right gear and wheel size, it should feel about the same on the highway, RPM-wise.

Edit - Honestly, in my opinion, a new Challenger is the easy button if you want drivability. I like the style, they cruise great, and even a base R/T is fast enough to be fun. No fabrication or tuning, just buy it and drive it. Only reasons for me to do a G3 swap on my Duster is I don't want the car payment, I like to build things and be different (anyone can buy a Challenger) and I don't have the space for 2 cars.
 
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I've got a couple thousand, trouble-free miles on mine. It has all the gen-3 components and a HotWire harness. Lots of work, but behaves like a ScatPak 392 car.....only lots lighter. It also doesn't try to control my driving. I couldn't be more pleased.

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Really good point. Comes down to what people want out of their rig.

I live 30 minutes from the "big town" of Spokane, Washington so almost any use of my car involves at least 30 minutes at 60+ mph. That's certainly within the two hour drive window, but it's enough for me to say I want OD. Even if I lived in a bigger town and ever got on the freeway, or maybe even a main road that had a speed limit of 50+ mph, I would probably want OD. But that's me, I just don't like the motor spinning at 3K rpm. Thankfully I am not everybody, that would be boring.

I might add that another "for me" reason is mileage. The better the fuel economy an OD gives means that I can enjoy the car more and drive it further. Not everyone has that limitation, and it is somewhat self imposed, but it is still a limitation for me. For some, economy is pointless because 10 mpg isn't much better than the 8 mpg the car gets without OD, making OD kind of pointless. And some rides are rough enough that driving it more than 30 minutes at a time is unpleasant, so why would they want to drive it more anyway. And for some the point isn't to drive it, it's to go fast or look good, all valid. But my goal is to make my Duster something I can enjoy as much as I can which means driving it all that I can.

To each their own.
You know, one joke I've always had with my car since the day I bought it was that no matter what I do, it gets 20 mpg, period. I had a 318 with a 4 speed and low 3.something gears (I think, don't recall what was actually in the rear end when I bought it) and it got 20 mpg on the highway. Swapped to a 5.7 Hemi with a carb and kept the 4 speed originally and it got 20 mpg on the highway. Converted to fuel injection and a T56 and low and behold, 20 mpg on the highway, lol. Granted I'm probably getting twice the horsepower of the 318 now and I have half the cruising rpm I used to, but I think aerodynamics are the ultimate limit of what the car is going to do consistently. It's a brick, there's no getting around that. With better tuning I have finally managed to make that number budge a bit and have seen 25 on the highway on my instantaneous gauge readout, but it's basically low 20s.

It all kind of makes sense when you think about it though. A car needs X amount of horsepower to travel at 70 mph. Doesn't matter how you make it, that's just what it takes to overcome drag, friction, etc. You can spin an engine at 4000 rpm with almost no throttle input and make the 60 hp or whatever it takes to push you along or you can spin it at 1500 rpm with your foot halfway to the floor. Both make the same horsepower in the long run. Yeah, you might lose some extra horsepower to rotating friction and stuff at higher engine rpm, but it's likely fairly minimal. The main difference comes down to the volumetric efficiency of the engine at those different operating points. You can kind of parallel that with the torque curve of an engine, though the effects of less than WOT make dyno charts somewhat less useful for that. Generally speaking though if you have a nice flat torque curve then the engine is probably pretty efficient at any operating rpm and your actual cruising rpm may not really make a huge difference on fuel economy.
 
You know, one joke I've always had with my car since the day I bought it was that no matter what I do, it gets 20 mpg, period. I had a 318 with a 4 speed and low 3.something gears (I think, don't recall what was actually in the rear end when I bought it) and it got 20 mpg on the highway. Swapped to a 5.7 Hemi with a carb and kept the 4 speed originally and it got 20 mpg on the highway. Converted to fuel injection and a T56 and low and behold, 20 mpg on the highway, lol. Granted I'm probably getting twice the horsepower of the 318 now and I have half the cruising rpm I used to, but I think aerodynamics are the ultimate limit of what the car is going to do consistently. It's a brick, there's no getting around that. With better tuning I have finally managed to make that number budge a bit and have seen 25 on the highway on my instantaneous gauge readout, but it's basically low 20s.

It all kind of makes sense when you think about it though. A car needs X amount of horsepower to travel at 70 mph. Doesn't matter how you make it, that's just what it takes to overcome drag, friction, etc. You can spin an engine at 4000 rpm with almost no throttle input and make the 60 hp or whatever it takes to push you along or you can spin it at 1500 rpm with your foot halfway to the floor. Both make the same horsepower in the long run. Yeah, you might lose some extra horsepower to rotating friction and stuff at higher engine rpm, but it's likely fairly minimal. The main difference comes down to the volumetric efficiency of the engine at those different operating points. You can kind of parallel that with the torque curve of an engine, though the effects of less than WOT make dyno charts somewhat less useful for that. Generally speaking though if you have a nice flat torque curve then the engine is probably pretty efficient at any operating rpm and your actual cruising rpm may not really make a huge difference on fuel economy.

Valid. I think OD is all about getting the engine RPM's into a range where the motor can be more efficient and generally a lower RPM is more efficient. Certainly too low can have a detriment. But aero drag can certainly influence things.

My theory (hope?) is that if the 5.7 is running the same RPM's as it would be in the Challenger, I have the best chance of the greatest efficiency.

Are you taking advantage of the ability with EFI to cut the fuel when costing downhill? I'm not clear on how it works or if it is a 100% fuel cut since the car is going to keep the motor turning, but I've heard it is a nice advantage to EFI. Since the motor is pulling air even with the throttle closed, a carb is still feeding gas while EFI can cut or reduce it under that certain condition.
 
Valid. I think OD is all about getting the engine RPM's into a range where the motor can be more efficient and generally a lower RPM is more efficient. Certainly too low can have a detriment. But aero drag can certainly influence things.

My theory (hope?) is that if the 5.7 is running the same RPM's as it would be in the Challenger, I have the best chance of the greatest efficiency.

Are you taking advantage of the ability with EFI to cut the fuel when costing downhill? I'm not clear on how it works or if it is a 100% fuel cut since the car is going to keep the motor turning, but I've heard it is a nice advantage to EFI. Since the motor is pulling air even with the throttle closed, a carb is still feeding gas while EFI can cut or reduce it under that certain condition.
I have tried some decel fuel cut in the past, but don't recall whether I'm running it now or not. The MS help tips actually suggest against it on a manual car, though I believe that's mostly just because of the "on/off" feeling you can get when you get back on the throttle being jarring to some. An auto soaks up that transition better since it has the converter to damp it out. That being said, I've driven several manual vehicles that still do it like my Viper and motorcycle. You can definitely feel it on the bike because it's a more pronounced deceleration, almost like lightly dragging the brakes. On the Viper it's more of an audio cue. Mine does some pretty good exhaust popping on decel that goes away after a few seconds when the fuel cut kicks in. I think you can just feel the extra decel as well, but I don't think it's quite as pronounced as the bike.

I kind of indirectly have it on the Dart via the fuel map though. The bottom row of my table is something like 15:1 AFR or more, so it's kind of like built in fuel cut to a lesser extent. You can set the cut percentage via the actual decel fuel cut setting though, so I might actually look into playing with that again. I forget all the parameters I have available in the MS, but you basically have settings to control when it kicks in and then how much of a cut you want. So you can have it do a 100% fuel cut if you want. The trigger settings are stuff like what MAP value you need to be under for it to activate and how long you have to be under it before it kicks on. Not sure how other aftermarket EFI systems do it though.

I think your idea of running the engine as close to "as installed" in the Challenger makes good sense though. It was designed to run in some kind of powerband, so makes sense to keep it there if you aren't changing parts on it that would move that around.
 
I think your idea of running the engine as close to "as installed" in the Challenger makes good sense though. It was designed to run in some kind of powerband, so makes sense to keep it there if you aren't changing parts on it that would move that around.

Well, I am going to run headers which should help, but I am also going to run a 6.4 intake and cam so not completely leaving it alone. But I am keeping VVT, so kind of like a smaller displacement Scat Pack?

Most people I have seen that do the 6.4 cam swap say it loses nothing down low but gains about 50 HP up top. Hopefully, the "lose nothing down low" means it should be close to stock. :D

BTW, my 5.7 R/T 6M and a Scat Pack 6M run the same trans, rear gears and tires. So the factory didn't change the cruise RPM's for an SP.
 
But why? Not questioning your "decision", but the topic is "why?", so I am curious what makes you say that.
Well I suppose to not over complete things with all the wiring. Which I know really isn’t that big of a deal. A carburetor and a chip killer distributor if those are still around.
It replaces the timing cover with another that that has a provision for a front mounted distributor. Kinda cool.
 
I've been on the OD bandwagon from pretty early on. The very first time I put my Duster back on the road in '93 or so, it had an A833OD. Truthfully, it was at least in part to that was the trans I found that I could afford. But at the time, it wasn't unusual to drive from Colville to Spokane and the Duster was a driver, not a show car, so I found myself really happy to have the OD gear. Since then, as long as I have owned the car, it has had an A833OD in it. I've never even entertained looking for a standard 4 speed. I certainly want better ratio splits, but refuse to look at options that don't include an OD gear.

And to be clear, my Duster still isn't a show car. While it is cleaner now than then, and I do take it to shows once in a while, its primary purpose to me is to drive it. Tarmac moving under me is gold.

My cousin was visiting the area from overseas last week and was staying in Charlotte. He wanted to try some Southern BBQ so we met about halfway in Columbia, SC. I decided to drive my Duster to give him a ride in it and show how much it had progressed over the last 8 years or so since I had last seen him. Well it was about 100 miles on the freeway and the first time making a trip like that since I swapped to 3.55:1 gears, car has a 904 with a 2800-RPM stall converter. It SUCKED. ~3500 RPM the whole way at 70-80 mph, used about 2/3 tank of gas (calculated around 12 MPG) and a pint of oil in that trip alone. In contrast when I used to cruise at similar speeds in CO with the 2.94 gears it was closer to 2700 RPM and much more comfortable and got closer to 16-18 MPG. I really don't want to drive this car on a longer freeway trip again until I get the 2.94 gearset back into my other 3rd member. And of course now I want overdrive more than ever. I bet cruising at 2000 RPM or less it would break 20 MPG.

You know, one joke I've always had with my car since the day I bought it was that no matter what I do, it gets 20 mpg, period. I had a 318 with a 4 speed and low 3.something gears (I think, don't recall what was actually in the rear end when I bought it) and it got 20 mpg on the highway. Swapped to a 5.7 Hemi with a carb and kept the 4 speed originally and it got 20 mpg on the highway. Converted to fuel injection and a T56 and low and behold, 20 mpg on the highway, lol. Granted I'm probably getting twice the horsepower of the 318 now and I have half the cruising rpm I used to, but I think aerodynamics are the ultimate limit of what the car is going to do consistently. It's a brick, there's no getting around that. With better tuning I have finally managed to make that number budge a bit and have seen 25 on the highway on my instantaneous gauge readout, but it's basically low 20s.

It all kind of makes sense when you think about it though. A car needs X amount of horsepower to travel at 70 mph. Doesn't matter how you make it, that's just what it takes to overcome drag, friction, etc. You can spin an engine at 4000 rpm with almost no throttle input and make the 60 hp or whatever it takes to push you along or you can spin it at 1500 rpm with your foot halfway to the floor. Both make the same horsepower in the long run. Yeah, you might lose some extra horsepower to rotating friction and stuff at higher engine rpm, but it's likely fairly minimal. The main difference comes down to the volumetric efficiency of the engine at those different operating points. You can kind of parallel that with the torque curve of an engine, though the effects of less than WOT make dyno charts somewhat less useful for that. Generally speaking though if you have a nice flat torque curve then the engine is probably pretty efficient at any operating rpm and your actual cruising rpm may not really make a huge difference on fuel economy.

You might get rid of a some drag by lowering the car but you're right, it is still a brick. The Duster/Demon/Dart Sport body is better in that regard, front end is still flat as a barn door but the swoopy semi-fastback roofline reduces overall drag quite a bit. IMO the most aerodynamic classic Mopar (after the Superbird/Daytona of course) is the 71-72 (and to a slightly lesser extent, 73-74) B-body Plymouth. I really want a 71-72 Satellite for that reason, I also like how they look.

Well, I am going to run headers which should help, but I am also going to run a 6.4 intake and cam so not completely leaving it alone. But I am keeping VVT, so kind of like a smaller displacement Scat Pack?

Most people I have seen that do the 6.4 cam swap say it loses nothing down low but gains about 50 HP up top. Hopefully, the "lose nothing down low" means it should be close to stock. :D

BTW, my 5.7 R/T 6M and a Scat Pack 6M run the same trans, rear gears and tires. So the factory didn't change the cruise RPM's for an SP.

I decided for swapping my 5.7 into an A-body (not sure if it'll be my Duster or something else) I'm going to put in a "Stage 3" Texas Speed cam and lock out the VVT. I watched a Dead Dodge Garage video of him test driving a 6.4-swapped '71 Challenger and he couldn't give it more than about 1/4 throttle without breaking the tires loose. I don't want that much torque and I want my Hemi to run like a Gen2 Hemi with roaring endless top end and 7000+ RPM redline. That cam also seems to retain decent enough low-end torque for use in modern Challengers and trucks without wrecking gas mileage and needing too many supporting mods so the street manners in a 3400-lb A-body should be nice.
 
My cousin was visiting the area from overseas last week and was staying in Charlotte. He wanted to try some Southern BBQ so we met about halfway in Columbia, SC. I decided to drive my Duster to give him a ride in it and show how much it had progressed over the last 8 years or so since I had last seen him. Well it was about 100 miles on the freeway and the first time making a trip like that since I swapped to 3.55:1 gears, car has a 904 with a 2800-RPM stall converter. It SUCKED. ~3500 RPM the whole way at 70-80 mph, used about 2/3 tank of gas (calculated around 12 MPG) and a pint of oil in that trip alone. In contrast when I used to cruise at similar speeds in CO with the 2.94 gears it was closer to 2700 RPM and much more comfortable and got closer to 16-18 MPG. I really don't want to drive this car on a longer freeway trip again until I get the 2.94 gearset back into my other 3rd member. And of course now I want overdrive more than ever. I bet cruising at 2000 RPM or less it would break 20 MPG.

Ouch.

For what it's worth, with the double OD wide ratio T56 Magnum, 3.73 gears and 26.7" diameter tires, I calculate 1528@65 mph. If I end up running a square 275/35R18 setup instead, I will probably drop down to 3.55 gears which works out to 1516@65. Both are around 1750@75.

I would worry that this will lug the motor, but my 2015 R/T cruised at 1485@65, so not worried at all.

IMO the most aerodynamic classic Mopar (after the Superbird/Daytona of course) is the 71-72 (and to a slightly lesser extent, 73-74) B-body Plymouth. I really want a 71-72 Satellite for that reason, I also like how they look.

I was daydreaming about one of those just today. It would be a tough call for me to have to pick between most any E-Body and a 71-72 B-Body.

I decided for swapping my 5.7 into an A-body (not sure if it'll be my Duster or something else) I'm going to put in a "Stage 3" Texas Speed cam and lock out the VVT. I watched a Dead Dodge Garage video of him test driving a 6.4-swapped '71 Challenger and he couldn't give it more than about 1/4 throttle without breaking the tires loose. I don't want that much torque and I want my Hemi to run like a Gen2 Hemi with roaring endless top end and 7000+ RPM redline. That cam also seems to retain decent enough low-end torque for use in modern Challengers and trucks without wrecking gas mileage and needing too many supporting mods so the street manners in a 3400-lb A-body should be nice.

I'd have to go back and watch it again, but I think the Reignited guy put the same cam in his 6.4 swapped C10.

I know I am limiting myself, but really want to keep the VVT and the 6.4 cam in a 5.7 is supposed to be a really nice combo. And seeing my cruise RPM's, just seems like the best bet to keep it. I understand though and really expect that once I have the car driving for awhile I will want more. But at that point I can either swap in a 6.4, or bolt on an HC blower.
 
I run a carb set up because it is different, not because it’s more convenient. The old-school look is what I was looking for which I think I accomplished. To each his own, but I prefer carburetors over fuel injection any day. If you know how to tune a carburetor, it will be just as fast as fuel injection. I’m sure this will bring a whole lot of comments, lol.

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I run a carb set up because it is different, not because it’s more convenient. The old-school look is what I was looking for which I think I accomplished. To each his own, but I prefer carburetors over fuel injection any day. If you know how to tune a carburetor, it will be just as fast as fuel injection. I’m sure this will bring a whole lot of comments, lol.

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Makes complete sense for a more race-oriented setup. I'd go the same route if I was building a street/strip car. I know how to tune both carbs and EFI, I have more experience with carbs but taught myself how to tune a bit on my Buick (supercharged 3800 V6) and there are pros and cons to each. What intake manifold are you running?
 
I run a carb set up because it is different, not because it’s more convenient. The old-school look is what I was looking for which I think I accomplished. To each his own, but I prefer carburetors over fuel injection any day. If you know how to tune a carburetor, it will be just as fast as fuel injection. I’m sure this will bring a whole lot of comments, lol.

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I agree with you. Very cool car, btw.
 
Makes complete sense for a more race-oriented setup. I'd go the same route if I was building a street/strip car. I know how to tune both carbs and EFI, I have more experience with carbs but taught myself how to tune a bit on my Buick (supercharged 3800 V6) and there are pros and cons to each. What intake manifold are you running?
Eddy intake
 
Nice, any other mods (cam, heads, internals)? What kind of times are you running with that setup?
Pre-eagle engine. 4 inch bore, stroke is 4.08. Each hole sleeved. 9.5 to one compression. Comp 583 intake 586 exhaust (not the right cam but it was what I had and I was running out of time for Sick Summer). Heads are pre eagle big valve heads from inertia that are milled 30 thou and ported by them. Eddy intake with 2 500 CFM eddys. Best was 11.27 at 117. I really haven’t started tuning on it yet. I put caltracs on it and I roasted the sure grip so never got a good pass with the caltracs.
 
Pre-eagle engine. 4 inch bore, stroke is 4.08. Each hole sleeved. 9.5 to one compression. Comp 583 intake 586 exhaust (not the right cam but it was what I had and I was running out of time for Sick Summer). Heads are pre eagle big valve heads from inertia that are milled 30 thou and ported by them. Eddy intake with 2 500 CFM eddys. Best was 11.27 at 117. I really haven’t started tuning on it yet. I put caltracs on it and I roasted the sure grip so never got a good pass with the caltracs.

Hell yeah that's a pretty burly combo, IMO it's begging for a tunnel ram! Intake is already too tall for a hood right? Lol...
 
Hell yeah that's a pretty burly combo, IMO it's begging for a tunnel ram! Intake is already too tall for a hood right? Lol...
Lol!!! Yupp, way too tall with the 2 inches of spacers there also. If I put the 6.1 heads on then I may look for a drag pak or Ritter intake
 
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