wiring question

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moparfanatic56

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Ok i have a 72 dart and I bought the m&h wiring harness and I am a little unsure about 2 wires under the dash. I have downloaded the service manual but it really doesn't show what I need. My question is do the red and black wire attach to the posts on the back of the instrument panel as show in the picture. When I got the car they were attached to each other (ex drag car). Thanks and I do have the wiring diagram coming.

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Yes, that is exactly where they go. All the car's power, except the starter, goes through the amp meter. Make sure they're tight.
 
That is the ammeter and BE CAREFUL the red is HOT and the black is NOT GROUND.
 
That is the ammeter and BE CAREFUL the red is HOT and the black is NOT GROUND.
I seen that it is marked red below the passenger side post. Thanks for the heads up. The only concern I have is that the nut is pretty rusty and won't make good contact
 
If the ammeter is not in good shape, I'd either bolt them back together, or pull the ammeter apart and see if you can repair it. One thing that is NEEDED on many of those ammeters is to solder the studs to the "guts" AKA the shunt inside.

This is a great article on some of the troubles


There is also a way, depending, to convert that spot to a voltmeter


This thread:

Soldering the ammeter studs if they are loose
https://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum/attachments/img_1084-jpg.982964/

The gist of the entire ammeter problem:

1...Ammeter circuit wiring,really, is too small, especially if you go big on an alternator
2...Bulkhead connector terminals are not adequate, same deal
3....Ammeter studs are only making tight contact because of the "sandwich of being installed with the studs, shunt, insulator washers, nuts, etc. If any of that gets loose, it gets hot, and then gets more loose......
 
I seen that it is marked red below the passenger side post. Thanks for the heads up. The only concern I have is that the nut is pretty rusty and won't make good contact
Be carefull, the nuts on the back of the cir board hold the guage to the cir board.

You need a second set of nuts to tighten the terminals to the posts.

Be sure to use a backup wrench on the nuts closest to the cir board.

If you rotate the posts you can damage the ammeter.

There are no visible signs that the ammeter has gotten hot so it may be ok.

You can test it with a lightbulb and a 12v battery or power supply.

Go from positive battery post, to lightbulb to one post of the ammeter, from the other post, to the negative battery post

The guage should move one way or the other a small amount. If you use a headlight the movement will be greater
 
those ammeter studs are insulated from the gauge cluster by fibre and plastic washers and a plastic sleeve
back of gauge---nut----fibre washer----plastic washer with sleave (like a top hat bush) into hole in gauge cluster back ----plastic washer---fibre washer-----nut leaveing the stud end for you to bolt the wires to, sticking out

In most cases those studs also mount the gauge in the cluster

if the meter is overloaded it gets hot and if the plastic melts the ammeter shorts...

just continuity check between case and stud to see if its OK.

if its not....get new inuslators platstic washers with sleeves from digikey or similar
and no harm in some heat shrink on the stud as it passes through the gauge cluster as well.

test it by putting it in circuit with a headlamp bulb, using thinish wire on your car battery....needle should twitch to about 3 amps. obvioulsy if there is a problem the wires will melt.... be aware of this before you test

when installing use a spikey washer of appropriate size either side of the eye on the end of the wires, the orginal brass nuts if you can, so the spikey washer gets some bite, and a dab of soft locktite or some enamel paint on the threads.

too strong on the locktite and you will wind the stud out next time you try to remove it and that really does break the ammeter


OOPs should have read the previous post before writing all this
apologies...its done now :)

Dave
 
OOk
those ammeter studs are insulated from the gauge cluster by fibre and plastic washers and a plastic sleeve
back of gauge---nut----fibre washer----plastic washer with sleave (like a top hat bush) into hole in gauge cluster back ----plastic washer---fibre washer-----nut leaveing the stud end for you to bolt the wires to, sticking out

In most cases those studs also mount the gauge in the cluster

if the meter is overloaded it gets hot and if the plastic melts the ammeter shorts...

just continuity check between case and stud to see if its OK.

if its not....get new inuslators platstic washers with sleeves from digikey or similar
and no harm in some heat shrink on the stud as it passes through the gauge cluster as well.

test it by putting it in circuit with a headlamp bulb, using thinish wire on your car battery....needle should twitch to about 3 amps. obvioulsy if there is a problem the wires will melt.... be aware of this before you test

when installing use a spikey washer of appropriate size either side of the eye on the end of the wires, the orginal brass nuts if you can, so the spikey washer gets some bite, and a dab of soft locktite or some enamel paint on the threads.

too strong on the locktite and you will wind the stud out next time you try to remove it and that really does break the ammeter


OOPs should have read the previous post before writing all this
apologies...its done now :)

Dave
Ok, I checked the continuity and it appears that the amp gauge is bad the display on the multimeter didn't change. So can I use these wires and pigtail them to an aftermarket amp gauge without any issues? I am not really wanting to tear into the cluster just to replace the factory gauge.k
 
depends how you checked continuity,

i'm not sure i understand what you explain. so just to be on the safe side

if you have a beep tester on your meter do the following

put red to the gauge/instrument cluster case and black lead to one of the studs. if it beeps you have a problem
if it doesn't beep all good
check the other stud

if you just set the gauge to resistance/ohms
between case and a stud you should have infinite resistance tyr it on all settings

if you measure some resistance a few ohms or even a few Kohms or Zero resistance you have a problem. the lead connected to the stud can "see" the lead connected to the caseing BAD....!

basically no electricty should be able to flow from one of those studs into the caseing,
if it can flow that would indicate a dead short.....





Dave
 
OOk

Ok, I checked the continuity and it appears that the amp gauge is bad the display on the multimeter didn't change. So can I use these wires and pigtail them to an aftermarket amp gauge without any issues? I am not really wanting to tear into the cluster just to replace the factory gauge.k

Connecting the black and red to each other bypasses the amp gauge, and is probably why yours were done that way.
Keep in mind that if you decide to swap the gauge for a voltmeter that you can’t connect it the same way.
The volt meter will have to get it’s 12v supply from a switched ignition source for the positive and it’s ground from the cluster or dash metal.
 
depends how you checked continuity,

i'm not sure i understand what you explain. so just to be on the safe side

if you have a beep tester on your meter do the following

put red to the gauge/instrument cluster case and black lead to one of the studs. if it beeps you have a problem
if it doesn't beep all good
check the other stud

if you just set the gauge to resistance/ohms
between case and a stud you should have infinite resistance tyr it on all settings

if you measure some resistance a few ohms or even a few Kohms or Zero resistance you have a problem. the lead connected to the stud can "see" the lead connected to the caseing BAD....!

basically no electricty should be able to flow from one of those studs into the caseing,
if it can flow that would indicate a dead short.....





Dave
Please excuse my ignorance as I am trying to learn about the electrical functions (electrically challenged) lol. I just have the cheap harbor freight multimeter and I followed the directions I found online. I put it on the settings as directed touched the 2 leads together to check goes to zero. Now when I check the gage like you said the reading does not change so should it go to zero or hold. Sorry not trying to be a pain
 
OOPs should have read the previous post before writing all this
apologies...its done now
Great minds think alike

Ok, I checked the continuity and it appears that the amp gauge is bad the display on the multimeter didn't change
The amp guage will read about the same as when the test leads shorted together.

If it reads OL or what ever your meter reads when the leads are not touching then it would be bad
 
Please excuse my ignorance as I am trying to learn about the electrical functions (electrically challenged) lol. I just have the cheap harbor freight multimeter and I followed the directions I found online. I put it on the settings as directed touched the 2 leads together to check goes to zero. Now when I check the gage like you said the reading does not change so should it go to zero or hold. Sorry not trying to be a pain
you really need to do an internet search on use of a multimeter. There are books written. Different meters are different, the short story:


1...Shorting the leads together in the ohms / resistance function should give a very low reading, not necessarily zero, because of TEST LEADS RESISTANCE, and also because any meter gets more inaccurate at very low resistance. That condition is "zero resistance", continuity, a short/ shorted condition. In other words what it shows can mean different things depending on whether you are looking for a harmful short (say to ground) or whether you are looking for operational continuity, such as through a switch.

IN THE CASE of your ammeter, you want infinity (NO continuity) from either terminal to the ground / metal of the cluster, but LOW resistance/ continuity between the two terminal studs

2...Different meters have different indicators for open--leads unconnected, or leads connected to a circuit such as blown lamp bulb with no continuity. Some show "inf" for infinity, some just show a dashed line, indicating that they cannot resolve the reading

3...It is IMPORTANT to understand that low resistance, high current circuits CAN NOT BE reliably tested with resistance readings. That ohmeter may WELL show a low reading with a partial poor connection, and heat up because of it in use, under heavy current draw

A better way, which I speak of a lot here is TESTING BY MEANS OF VOLTAGE DROP

When you have a high current circuit, such as say, headlights, that is powered through the bulkhead (ammeter) circuit, through the ammeter, through the light switch, through the dimmer switch, and back out through the bulkhead connector to the headlights WITH ALL THE additional connectors such as the headlight connectors themselves, EACH AND ALL of the switches and connectors can ADD VOLTAGE DROP because of looseness, corrosion, oxidation, or damage FROM HEAT. Learning to test by using voltage is MUCH MORE definitive and reliable in many automotive electrical problems.

Another example would be ignition switches. You simply can not reliably test function of a high current switch such as ignition switch, by using continuity or resistance.
 
Thanks to everyone for your help with this but in the end I was unable to get the rusted nut broke loose and it snapped so I will bite the bullet and order a new gage.. Once again thanks for the help for an old man I learned a lot.
 
So can I use these wires and pigtail them to an aftermarket amp gauge without any issues?
because of the issues with the factory gauge and the fact that I think that to have a finger on the pulse of your electrical system you need both an ammeter and a volt gauge, I have left the factory ammeter in place (disconnected) and put an under dash set of gauges in each of my Darts - volts, amps and mechanical oil pressure. If your charging system fails, a voltmeter will let you know that you are screwed after the voltage drops someplace that is below what you need, whereas the ammeter will show eratic or inappropriate charging well before your car is dead on the side of the road. The voltmeter is effective in detecting battery voltage that is too high or too low and allows you to try and address it before disaster strikes. My under dash ammeters are connected to those two wires - pull them down and see if they will reach were you want to put the gauge. No pigtail is needed, just use the original ring connector. You might have to cut some of the black harness wrap to get the length that you need.

DSC04490.JPG

Thiis one even has a clock!!!
 
Connecting the black and red to each other bypasses the amp gauge, and is probably why yours were done that way.
Keep in mind that if you decide to swap the gauge for a voltmeter that you can’t connect it the same way.
The volt meter will have to get it’s 12v supply from a switched ignition source for the positive and it’s ground from the cluster or dash metal.
Hello sir,

I just switched my amp meter to a voltmeter. I get that I need the voltmeter power from the ignition and plan to work on that. Does anyone know if there is an easy stop on the gauge cluster to get ignition power without cutting into the wires from the ignition (behind the key)?

Additionally are you, or anyone else, familiar with where the ground is on the back of the cluster?

Additional I planned to cut and sodder the old amp meter eyes to complete the positive circuit without any concerns of it shorting out, however has anyone come up with a good use for this connection?

Thanks all

Thanks

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I was hopping you would keep the ammeter face plate.

That looks great.

You could get switched power from the same wire that feeds the IVR. It is switched 12v.

Also any screw that screws into the metal housing will be ground. You can check some of the indicator bulbs, one side of the cir board will go to a pin the other will go to ground.

Post a photo of the back of your cluster I'll point out each.
 
If you take drop the fuse box without disconnecting it at all, and look under the back flap you will find unused connections that are both keyed and unkeyed, and depending on where you make connections, fused or unfused. If you use unfused, put in the size in line fuse that the gauge folks require. you may also see connections in the back of the fuse box that are "stacked" into a single connection and you can get brass adapters that allow you to do the same.
 
by the way, if I were you I'd take the ammeter ring connectors and put a modern aftermarket ammeter under the dash. The ammeter and voltmeter give you very different information and it is all useful.
 
by the way, if I were you I'd take the ammeter ring connectors and put a modern aftermarket ammeter under the dash. The ammeter and voltmeter give you very different information and it is all useful.
The entire reason for converting to voltmeter is to help solve the problem of small wiring and bulkhead connector, along with the ammeter itself. "If I live long enough" and I may not, I hope to somewhat duplicate the external shunt type setup used in the 76 A bodies and earlier C barges in some cases.
 
I get it but part of the problem is the cheesy mass production ammeter. IMHO, With a modern gauge and good greased connections in new wiring and avoiding running bunch of extra load on the system I believe it would last another 20 years or more.
 
The OEM wiring has lasted 50 to 60 years, the ammeter the same. As long as the connections are clean tight (not over tight) and the wires are in good shape there is no reason the system can't go another 50 to 60 years
 
^^I think that's a stretch. Everything deteriorates. Part of the issues are guys install oversize alternators, and install stuff that draws more current. Fans, pumps, stereo, etc.
 
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