Won't Fire - Need Help!

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matsucu06

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Hey Guys,
Need diagnostic help and list of things to check...

Have a newly rebuilt 340 engine and can't get it to start. It's getting fuel and spark. Tries to start and backfires through the carb. It has 145-150 lbs. of compression in each cylinder. Used pressure gauge to ensure distributor is pointing #1 cylinder on the compression stroke. Used a timing light hooked up to the #1 plug wire and timed to 14 degrees BTDC. Has an MSD6A Multi-spark box and MSD Distributor with new cap and rotor...

Any thoughts on what could be wrong/off or what I should check?
 
Not an expert here, but when it backfires through carb sounds like a timing issue to me. Rotate distributor 180* and try again.
 
Either

The cam is out of time

Some valves are hung open

Or the balancer mark is wrong, and you are not in time as you think.
 
Not an expert here, but when it backfires through carb sounds like a timing issue to me. Rotate distributor 180* and try again.

Hmm... Yeah, that's what my buddy said too, so I rechecked to make sure distributor was point to #1 on the compression stroke. Am 99% sure, but I guess it can't hurt to rotate the distributor 180 and try to re-fire...

Either

The cam is out of time

Some valves are hung open

Or the balancer mark is wrong, and you are not in time as you think.

Yeah, was thinking about that too and was holding off and wanted to try other things before tearing the front end off... Would I still get good compression results in all cylinders if the cam was off?

Appreciate the ideas guys!! Often hard to troubleshoot on my own and start second guessing everything I've done...
 
Or the balancer mark is wrong, and you are not in time as you think.

Was thinking about this one too... Any thoughts on how to verify this? I know the 70 318 I pulled from the car had timing marks on the passenger side of timing chain.. Used a different vibration dampener and timing chain cover with timing marks on drivers side on the 340. Is there a such thing as mismatched dampener (timing marks) and timing chain covers? If so, is there a simple way tell which is which?? Yikes! Am I confusing myself (And others)??!! Ha-ha...
 
Yup pop the valve cover off and start over with a piston stop. Watch your #1 cyl. for your TDC using your piston stop. Make sure both valves are closed on #1 cyl. Once you do that set it at about 10* BTDC and stab your dizzy pointing to the #1 cyl.
 
Was thinking about this one too... Any thoughts on how to verify this? I know the 70 318 I pulled from the car had timing marks on the passenger side of timing chain.. Used a different vibration dampener and timing chain cover with timing marks on drivers side on the 340. Is there a such thing as mismatched dampener (timing marks) and timing chain covers? If so, is there a simple way tell which is which?? Yikes! Am I confusing myself (And others)??!! Ha-ha...

Pull #1 plug and bring the piston up to TDC intake compression and see if the balancer lines up with zero on the mark. This will tell you if it's off or not.

What year of 340 and was the original crank, damper and front dress reused?
 
Check the firing order. Only takes a minute, doesn't cost anything, and won't wear out the starter. It will do no good to have the rotor pointing at the correct wire if the other end of the wires aren't where they belong. Oh, and make sure you advanced it ten or fourteen degrees and didn't retard it by those degrees.
 
Yup pop the valve cover off and start over with a piston stop. Watch your #1 cyl. for your TDC using your piston stop. Make sure both valves are closed on #1 cyl. Once you do that set it at about 10* BTDC and stab your dizzy pointing to the #1 cyl.

Thanks. Actually have a TDC Finder, but never used it... Will have to figure out how since it didn't come w/instructions...

Pull #1 plug and bring the piston up to TDC intake compression and see if the balancer lines up with zero on the mark. This will tell you if it's off or not.

What year of 340 and was the original crank, damper and front dress reused?

Thanks. Not sure of crank year. It was from my previous motor that I replaced with a stroker crank; but it's forged... Not sure on dampener and TC cover since I bought them separately...

I think you were prob right the first time,, you just needed more timing,, and you may have a wire crossed..

Will double check firingi order again, next -TDC/Timing mark, and if all that checks out, will rotate the distributor 180...

Check the firing order. Only takes a minute, doesn't cost anything, and won't wear out the starter. It will do no good to have the rotor pointing at the correct wire if the other end of the wires aren't where they belong. Oh, and make sure you advanced it ten or fourteen degrees and didn't retard it by those degrees.

Agreed! Will definitely check and re-check these items.

Thanks All for the suggestions! Much appreciated!!
 
1----Using a piston stop is easy.

Remove the no1 plug, make sure the piston is "down," and install the device. Unhook the battery ground for safety

Wrench the engine over until the piston stops on the device. You may need to adjust the length the first time you try it. Once you set the length, devise a method (locknut) of making the plunger RIGID. Some aftermarket piston stops do not

Here's my homemade one I built in the 1970's!!!

attachment.php


Now, you are NOT trying to stop the piston at TDC, but rather "down some amount." This is not critical. When the piston stops, make an accurate, temporary mark on the balancer directly below TDC on the balancer.

Now rotate the engine CCW and do the same thing again. You will now have two temporary marks some distance apart. True TDC is 1/2 way between, and of course if your original mark is correct, that is where it will be

2----CAM TIMING. If you know the specs on your cam (cam card) you can estimate that procedure by looking at the factory manual

What year? is your car?

You can download some years manuals here:

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?p=1970088657

Get into the engine section, look for the cam / timing chain section and there's procedure to estimate chain wear and cam timing. This of course is for FACTORY cams, so if you have a wild duration thumper of a cam, you'll have to adjust the figures.

Here's a random card I found on the www, just to use / example


DegreeCamStep10.jpg


Notice that the intake (top right) opens at 8BTC. This is an easy figure, because after you have checked the timing marks you can easly "set up" 8--10* BTC. Just pull the valve cover and see if this happens-----------wrench the engine back some distance, and rotate CW slowly watching the no1 intake valve. When you see it move, stop, and see where the timing mark is.

3----When you have checked the above, recheck valve lash. If you do not have adjustable rockers, and the valves are too tight, you might have pushrods that are too long. A valve job, head milling, and deck milling are all things that can change pushrod length

4----Then run a compression check/ leakdown and see what you have


5----If you are satisfied that all the above is right, and try again to fire the engine, here is a good way to set up timing.

First, you need to get no1 on compression, and there are only two ways

A----Remove the no1 plug, stick your finger in the hole, and bump the engine until you just start to feel compression. Then watch the timing marks and bring the marks NOT to TDC but rather where you want initial timing, say, 15 BTC

B----If either valve cover is off, bring the engine around so the timing marks are about 15 BTC, and then look at the no1 or no6 valves. Be careful, because if they are both open, they will be about equal. Whichever cylinder, 1, or 6, has both valves CLOSED is the one which will fire.

Set the distributor in pointing to the no1 plug tower if both no1 valves are closed, or if you used the "finger" method.

If both no6 valves are closed, either rotate the crank one turn, or just set the dist. in pointing to the no6 plug tower.

Now, move the dist. CW (retard) to remove "slack" and rotate slowly back CCW (advanced) until the reluctor wheel tip is right in the center of the pickup coil. The rotor should be "just approaching" the corner of the plug tower imagining the shaft rotating CW

If you do this, and do it correctly, the engine will start and run
 
Using a piston stop is easy.

Remove the no1 plug, make sure the piston is "down," and install the device. Unhook the battery ground for safety

Wrench the engine over until the piston stops on the device. You may need to adjust the length the first time you try it. Once you set the length, devise a method (locknut) of making the plunger RIGID. Some aftermarket piston stops do not

Here's my homemade one I built in the 1970's!!!

attachment.php


Now, you are NOT trying to stop the piston at TDC, but rather "down some amount." This is not critical. When the piston stops, make an accurate, temporary mark on the balancer directly below TDC on the balancer.

Now rotate the engine CCW and do the same thing again. You will now have two temporary marks some distance apart. True TDC is 1/2 way between, and of course if your original mark is correct, that is where it will be

CAM TIMING. If you know the specs on your cam (cam card) you can estimate that procedure by looking at the factory manual

What year? is your car?

You can download some years manuals here:

http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?p=1970088657

Get into the engine section, look for the cam / timing chain section and there's procedure to estimate chain wear and cam timing. This of course is for FACTORY cams, so if you have a wild duration thumper of a cam, you'll have to adjust the figures.

Here's a random card I found on the www, just to use / example


DegreeCamStep10.jpg


Notice that the intake (top right) opens at 8BTC. This is an easy figure, because after you have checked the timing marks you can easly "set up" 8--10* BTC. Just pull the valve cover and see if this happens-----------wrench the engine back some distance, and rotate CW slowly watching the no1 intake valve. When you see it move, stop, and see where the timing mark is.

Wow! Thanks!! You're replied faster than I could Google the instructions and saved me the trouble.

My car is a 70 Duster with a 340 6-pak.. The car in questions, and in trouble, is a 68 Barracuda that I'm building for my brother...
 
Hmm... Here's what I checked:
1. Firing order was correct - 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2
2. No wires crossed
3. Using TDC Tool, verified TDC is accurate on dampener
4. Using remote starter, covered #1 cylinder plug hole and verified distributor is firing on compression stroke (Distributor is not 180 off). No compression in #1 cylinder when pointing to #6.

One thing I neglected to mention is that the MSD Distributor (8534) had a fair amount of surface rust on pick-up and in general from sitting so long on the previous motor... Took completely apart and clean with a wire brush, fine sandpaper, and steel wool. Reassembled and reset air gap to .008".

Still seems like an electrical problem, but not sure what else to check...

Any other ideas?
 
spark, fuel,compression..it has to run, I had a chop job wiring harness once that would disconnect the coil on start but be okay in run. doubt that's your problem. sounds like distributor is 180 out, or your timing marks are off. I rebuilt a chibby once,(and only) and cam geared it wrong. wouldn't run but it would fire. re-indexed gears and worked fine. I have been fooled with using finger method for distributor install. exhaust stroke was still strong, pull the valve cover to watch.
 
I just had an MSD issue. Using a mopar distributor and MSD ignition. Polarity on mag pickup was reversed. Paperwork I had said it shouldn't matter. Had spark but would not run. Flipped polarity and VROOM!
 
You DID run the firing order CLOCKWISE around the cap?

If you are sure the timing is correct...............

Next thing is valve lash and cam timing.
 
Don't overlook the obvious,it could be blinker fluid leaking down onto the flux capacitor thus rendering the knuter switch inoperable.
 
spark, fuel,compression..it has to run, I had a chop job wiring harness once that would disconnect the coil on start but be okay in run. doubt that's your problem. sounds like distributor is 180 out, or your timing marks are off. I rebuilt a chibby once,(and only) and cam geared it wrong. wouldn't run but it would fire. re-indexed gears and worked fine. I have been fooled with using finger method for distributor install. exhaust stroke was still strong, pull the valve cover to watch.

Had valve covers off (Again), so verified exhaust valve opens after #1 TDC...

I just had an MSD issue. Using a mopar distributor and MSD ignition. Polarity on mag pickup was reversed. Paperwork I had said it shouldn't matter. Had spark but would not run. Flipped polarity and VROOM!

Actually, have an MSD6A Multi-Spark unit and MSD (8534) distributor. The connector is slotted and will only plug in one way. Would have to cut-off OEM connector to switch...

You DID run the firing order CLOCKWISE around the cap?

If you are sure the timing is correct...............

Next thing is valve lash and cam timing.

Yup... Verified firing order in CW direction. Also, check valve lash again. Gave each rocker (Adjustable Hydraulic) an additional 1/4 turn for good measure... Last time checked timing during cranking and it seem to be 14-15 BTDC. Can you elaborate what you mean by cam timing?

Don't overlook the obvious, it could be blinker fluid leaking down onto the flux capacitor thus rendering the knuter switch inoperable.

Huh? Just did a blinker fluid flush/fill and knuter valve is bypassed... Ha-ha...

Okay, checked/cleaned the MSD Box ground to cylinder head and will tray advancing timing on next start attempt...
 
CAM TIMING

Did this engine ever run with present cam, chain, sprocket set up or is this "new?"

Or does it have enough miles (over 80K) that the chain / sprockets might be worn?

Re--read what I posted earlier. I told you "up there" LOL how to check or at least get some idea of cam timing
 
CAM TIMING

Did this engine ever run with present cam, chain, sprocket set up or is this "new?"

Or does it have enough miles (over 80K) that the chain / sprockets might be worn?

Re--read what I posted earlier. I told you "up there" LOL how to check or at least get some idea of cam timing

Hmm got me thinking.
Somebody had the same start up issue on here about 6 - months ago, turned out that the new camshaft was actually ground on a marine blank which fire backwards compared to automotive.
Highly unlikley but something to check.
 
I had the same problem in may .
Unfortunately it ended up wasting all my intake valves bent a pushrod and had to come apart . It was the cam installed wrong .
Had the valves fixed rotated the cam put on my roller rockers and when back together it fired on the first try !!
I hope that is not your problem ?
 
Hmm got me thinking.
Somebody had the same start up issue on here about 6 - months ago, turned out that the new camshaft was actually ground on a marine blank which fire backwards compared to automotive.
Highly unlikley but something to check.

Damn, yep I remember that
 
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