abodyjoe
Well-Known Member
lol.. can you imagine putting those things on.
x and h pipes
- Thread starter Dartnewbie
- Start date
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lol.. can you imagine putting those things on.
mguner
How many is too many?
I love the sound of my 3 inch with Flowmasters. I used some mandrell bends from a truck supply house to make the X pipe and dump at the front spring hangers from the mufflers. It sounds like thunder when you stand beside the rear at idle..... 
I hate the sound of the glass packs on my 75 Dart!!! Sounds like a Chebby P/U....
I hate the sound of the glass packs on my 75 Dart!!! Sounds like a Chebby P/U....
stroked 340
Banned
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No i don't,i'm just asking to prove his claim of 20-25 lbs of touque and 10-20 h.p. using an x-pipe other then what some magazine claims..i'd like to see them i might just switch to an x-pipe..
VOETOM
Well-Known Member
Stroked, we typically see 7 to 10 HP on a 400 plus HP car when going from an as-made H to a Dr. Gas X. Not sure I could comment on what a homemade X does as all of them work a bit differently. But we always saw sound reductions with the X (at least most of the time) and the resonation almost always drops.
Tom
Tom
Locomotion
Well-Known Member
About 2 1/2 years ago I decided to try TTI's 3" X-pipe and Ultraflo mufflers with their 1 5/8"-1 3/4" stepped headers that I had been running open for years. It ends at the rear housing with the mufflers. I decided on X instead of H because just about everything I've read said that X would make more power. Also, just looking at it from an airflow perspective, it would appear to be a better, smoother flowing set-up that could actually help scavanging. No 90* angles! That's kind of how a vac-u-pan system works with the header mounted pipe inserted at a 45* angle inside the collector.
While I didn't make any back-to-back comparisons to eliminate track and weather variables, every indication from past record keeping showed that the system helped my combination. It also helped when I removed the 60 lbs the system added from other parts of the car and did additional carb tuning. I figure at least .05 or perhaps .10. I was sure enough that I decided to keep it on despite having to take weight out elsewhere to get back down to class minimum weight and the extra trouble of having to drop the system when having to replace the trans.
I can actually hear my Holley blue pump at idle and I've gotten lots of compliments from other open header racers.
I ran a best of 11.312 @ 115.03 mph last June in Budds Creek, MD when I "turned it up" for a heads-up race which I won. 1.486 60" time at 3,540 lbs.
While I didn't make any back-to-back comparisons to eliminate track and weather variables, every indication from past record keeping showed that the system helped my combination. It also helped when I removed the 60 lbs the system added from other parts of the car and did additional carb tuning. I figure at least .05 or perhaps .10. I was sure enough that I decided to keep it on despite having to take weight out elsewhere to get back down to class minimum weight and the extra trouble of having to drop the system when having to replace the trans.
I can actually hear my Holley blue pump at idle and I've gotten lots of compliments from other open header racers.
I ran a best of 11.312 @ 115.03 mph last June in Budds Creek, MD when I "turned it up" for a heads-up race which I won. 1.486 60" time at 3,540 lbs.
BobsDart
Well-Known Member
I have a somewhat hybrid exhaust on my 64. Hooker headers,2 1/2" summit X, dynomax ultraflo's and tti tailpipes. It sound good at idle and cruise. When you're in it, it has a higher pitched sound. None of my buddies small block cars sound like it... At the track it runs the same full exhaust or open cut outs!! On the dyno little change in hp but torque jumps about 30 ft lbs open..
Bob
Bob
TexasStroker
Well-Known Member
To keep things simple, if you have anything stock or relatively mild and are simply wanting to upgrade or go to a dual exhaust, run an h-pipe. With the X coming on strong, prices have dropped for the h-pipes, and if nothing else h's are easily fabbed up by your local muffler house. The price will stay within your budget and you should be pleased with the results...
If you have built a high performance motor or are looking to get the most out of your ride, run the x-pipe.
I have been trying for several months to find definitive data on whether the "cutout" in an x-pipe system is better off being placed before the "x" (more in line with the collector) or beyond the "x" (take adv of improved scavenging). This is essentially a jegs/summit design versus the pypes design...No one seems to have et, mph, etc, much less flow numbers.
The 1st hand feedback I have received was simply most guys running the x with cutouts, made runs in all the three configurations: 1-open headers (no exhaust), 2-thru the entire exhaust, and 3-thru the exhaust out the ''cutouts."
The feedback I got was that there was no gain et/mph in either set up...If you have an x-pipe that can match #s with open headers at the track, something is going right. I would venture to guess that an ideal h-pipe for the same car would be a tenth or two slower.
As I have said, if your goal is simply a dual exhaust for your daily driver or cruiser, go with the h pipe....If you are looking for the best all out set up, go with the x. Both layouts equalize pressure, but the 'x' will win out in terms of scavenging, hence the gain. The 'x' will also tone things down a tad more than the 'h' pipe. This 'toning down' is largely influenced by the singular application and the muffler you have selected.
Muffler choice is a personal issue as everyone's preference to tones, resonance, dbs, and flow are variable. One guy just wants to sound good and could care less about flow, the next guy wants no sound with all the flow, and the next guy wants the best flow #s with the nastiest sound. Don't forget the guy who wants the loudest car in town, but also insists on no interior resonance, lol...
Also to consider is your pipe size, floor pan clearance, inlet/outlet location, side or rear exit etc...all of it has to be taken into account.
Similarly, many people still seem to take foregranted the impact of the cam/heads/valvetrain on the "sound" of the car...I still see people dissapointed when their flowmasters don't make their car sound like a high lift, long duration cam :toothy10: Live and learn I suppose, lol...
You really need to just size the pipe to your CID and HP levels for optimal gains...In other words don't choke your 318 down with 1 3/4" pea shooters or something...Just be smart and effecient, not a total penny pincher. When done right you will have something to be quite happy with and not out a lot of $$$.
I could keep going, but the point I'm trying to make is simply take time and research your application...Guys have sound clips all over the net are more than willing to share.
If you have built a high performance motor or are looking to get the most out of your ride, run the x-pipe.
I have been trying for several months to find definitive data on whether the "cutout" in an x-pipe system is better off being placed before the "x" (more in line with the collector) or beyond the "x" (take adv of improved scavenging). This is essentially a jegs/summit design versus the pypes design...No one seems to have et, mph, etc, much less flow numbers.
The 1st hand feedback I have received was simply most guys running the x with cutouts, made runs in all the three configurations: 1-open headers (no exhaust), 2-thru the entire exhaust, and 3-thru the exhaust out the ''cutouts."
The feedback I got was that there was no gain et/mph in either set up...If you have an x-pipe that can match #s with open headers at the track, something is going right. I would venture to guess that an ideal h-pipe for the same car would be a tenth or two slower.
As I have said, if your goal is simply a dual exhaust for your daily driver or cruiser, go with the h pipe....If you are looking for the best all out set up, go with the x. Both layouts equalize pressure, but the 'x' will win out in terms of scavenging, hence the gain. The 'x' will also tone things down a tad more than the 'h' pipe. This 'toning down' is largely influenced by the singular application and the muffler you have selected.
Muffler choice is a personal issue as everyone's preference to tones, resonance, dbs, and flow are variable. One guy just wants to sound good and could care less about flow, the next guy wants no sound with all the flow, and the next guy wants the best flow #s with the nastiest sound. Don't forget the guy who wants the loudest car in town, but also insists on no interior resonance, lol...
Also to consider is your pipe size, floor pan clearance, inlet/outlet location, side or rear exit etc...all of it has to be taken into account.
Similarly, many people still seem to take foregranted the impact of the cam/heads/valvetrain on the "sound" of the car...I still see people dissapointed when their flowmasters don't make their car sound like a high lift, long duration cam :toothy10: Live and learn I suppose, lol...
You really need to just size the pipe to your CID and HP levels for optimal gains...In other words don't choke your 318 down with 1 3/4" pea shooters or something...Just be smart and effecient, not a total penny pincher. When done right you will have something to be quite happy with and not out a lot of $$$.
I could keep going, but the point I'm trying to make is simply take time and research your application...Guys have sound clips all over the net are more than willing to share.
COMP 268XE<----------OOPs!!!! its a 284XE, sorry guys...
:supz::supz::supz:
MopaR&D
Nerd Member
No f'in way... Do you think a 318 with a Voodoo 256/262 would idle at all like that?
Wait your right I lied... sorry its a COMP 284XE. That would make way more sense.... sorry about that, its been a long time since I put it in.
So no a 256 should not lope unless it was cut with some insane separation angle. The cam in my hemi truck is much more aggresive than the 284XE in my car but idles much better because it is a roller and has a 4° wider separation angle, but there are many other factors that affect idle quality too.
But ya x-pipe is the way to go. And since a bunch of you were talking about the hooker mufflers I have to give them :thumbup:
MopaR&D
Nerd Member
Okay, jeez, I was gonna say! That's quite a big cam though for a street 318...
mullinax95
Well-Known Member
The 284 is actually bigger than the previously mentioned 268.
284: http://www.compcams.com/Cam_Specs/CamDetails.aspx?csid=629&sb=1
268: http://www.compcams.com/Cam_Specs/CamDetails.aspx?csid=627&sb=1
I had a 273 with a Mopar .474/.474 cam and it sounded good but it was a "pig". It didn't run good. I dropped down to a .441/.441 lift and it ran much better. It had a smoother idle but ran much stronger. That's when I learned that having a big cam does not mean it will help far as performance. Now days I like performance over sound.. I have the same .474/.474 cam in a .030 over 360 in which it works much better in that motor because of the 10.7 compression.
MopaR&D
Nerd Member
No, I meant the 284 was a pretty big cam for a 318. Biggest I would ever go is the XE262 or Voodoo 262/268.
If you put a cam in an engine and it has some impresisve specs RE: lift, but it runs like a crippled turkey, it's probably not the lift that's causing the problem.
I think that to get meaningful cylinder pressure at the rpm's you want and need it, you have to take into consideration the size of the engine, its design parameters (long-stroke, small bore vs. short stroke, big bore), its compression ratio (long duration cams need more compression than short duration cams), and overlap (the amount of crankshaft rotation that occurs while both valves are open.) Lobe separation angle (lsa) is another consideration that can change a cam's "personality," but it's not as big a factor as lift and duration.
The amount of valve lift a cam produces won't always dictate what kind of a cam "personality" is exhibited in real-world driving. I have a cam in my Valiant that is extremely mild compared with most accepted statistics for "performance" cams; it only has 214 degrees duration at .050"-lift on the intake side, and 218 degrees on the exhaust, at .050". That's practically a stock cam for a 360 truck motor, BUT, it has very aggressive lift ramps (roller), and has a whopping .525" of lift, at the valve. So, what we have here is a high-lift, short-duration cam that idles at 475 rpm with good vacuum, but pulls strongly all the way to 5,500 rpm, due to its agressive lift ramps and (relatively) high total lift.
So, in this case, lots of lift doesn't always mean soggy performance at low rpm.
If you put a long duration cam (say, anything over about 230 degrees at .050"-lift) in a 318, for instance, it would not run well, probably, unless you had 10:1 compression, or more. The problem is exacerbated when the engine is small; you can get away with a lot more cam in a 440 than you can in a 318, compression ratio being equal.
Next time you have a chance, check the cam card for duration specs on the cams you've been running. More lift doesn't necessarily mean more duration, and vice/versa. In fact, they're not really related, at all.
Lobe separation, as I understand it, works to make more power at higher rpm's with lower lobe separation angle numbers. That is, a cam with a 104-degree lobe separation will make better high rpm power than one with a 114-degree "lsa." Overlap is minimized with higher lsa numbers, and increased with smaler lsa numbers. An engine's idle that was rough with a 104 lsa cam, might smooth out considerably with the same cam specs, but has a 114-degree lsa.
I don't pretend to know anything about cam design; those are just a few facts I've picked up through magazine articles and personal experience.
If anyone has good info to the contrary, RE: what I've said here, please correct me. But, choosing a cam, thinking it will perform differently insofar as its "personality" because of its lift, alone, isn't the best way, I would think.
Just my two-cents....
Bill
I think that to get meaningful cylinder pressure at the rpm's you want and need it, you have to take into consideration the size of the engine, its design parameters (long-stroke, small bore vs. short stroke, big bore), its compression ratio (long duration cams need more compression than short duration cams), and overlap (the amount of crankshaft rotation that occurs while both valves are open.) Lobe separation angle (lsa) is another consideration that can change a cam's "personality," but it's not as big a factor as lift and duration.
The amount of valve lift a cam produces won't always dictate what kind of a cam "personality" is exhibited in real-world driving. I have a cam in my Valiant that is extremely mild compared with most accepted statistics for "performance" cams; it only has 214 degrees duration at .050"-lift on the intake side, and 218 degrees on the exhaust, at .050". That's practically a stock cam for a 360 truck motor, BUT, it has very aggressive lift ramps (roller), and has a whopping .525" of lift, at the valve. So, what we have here is a high-lift, short-duration cam that idles at 475 rpm with good vacuum, but pulls strongly all the way to 5,500 rpm, due to its agressive lift ramps and (relatively) high total lift.
So, in this case, lots of lift doesn't always mean soggy performance at low rpm.
If you put a long duration cam (say, anything over about 230 degrees at .050"-lift) in a 318, for instance, it would not run well, probably, unless you had 10:1 compression, or more. The problem is exacerbated when the engine is small; you can get away with a lot more cam in a 440 than you can in a 318, compression ratio being equal.
Next time you have a chance, check the cam card for duration specs on the cams you've been running. More lift doesn't necessarily mean more duration, and vice/versa. In fact, they're not really related, at all.
Lobe separation, as I understand it, works to make more power at higher rpm's with lower lobe separation angle numbers. That is, a cam with a 104-degree lobe separation will make better high rpm power than one with a 114-degree "lsa." Overlap is minimized with higher lsa numbers, and increased with smaler lsa numbers. An engine's idle that was rough with a 104 lsa cam, might smooth out considerably with the same cam specs, but has a 114-degree lsa.
I don't pretend to know anything about cam design; those are just a few facts I've picked up through magazine articles and personal experience.
If anyone has good info to the contrary, RE: what I've said here, please correct me. But, choosing a cam, thinking it will perform differently insofar as its "personality" because of its lift, alone, isn't the best way, I would think.
Just my two-cents....
Bill
mullinax95
Well-Known Member
Damn it boy... hold back on the coffee some LOL!
I apprecaite all of the interest and that is some good reading. I was thinking about the whole ordeal a little bit later after I posted here. That's when I found out that the 273 heads was toast! I had a BJR Racing fab me up a new set of 302 swirl port heads......so while I was in the motor I decided to down grade the cam some (by recommendation of course). The new heads was sealing and it up the cylinder pressure... I guess I should mention things like that before I just switched cams.. huh?
Hey, thanks for the kind words! :-D
Don't sweat the coffee issue; you know I just like to run off at the mouth.... er... keyboard. LOL!
I'll try to tone it down a little; I'm sure people get bored, reading my diatribes.
It's just that once I get started, it's hard to stop!!!! Gotta work on that...
Merry Christmas!
Bill ( an amazing 70 years old, tomorrow (Sat.) in Conway, Arkansas
Don't sweat the coffee issue; you know I just like to run off at the mouth.... er... keyboard. LOL!
I'll try to tone it down a little; I'm sure people get bored, reading my diatribes.
It's just that once I get started, it's hard to stop!!!! Gotta work on that...
Merry Christmas!
Bill ( an amazing 70 years old, tomorrow (Sat.) in Conway, Arkansas
AdamR
Big Member
Happy B day Bill !~
mullinax95
Well-Known Member
No, no, no don't do that. I will use your information for future reference.. let rip man! I need info like that!
Happy Birthday!!
Thanks for the nice birthday wishes, guys....
I think I'm gonna celebrate by putting down a couple of stripes on this new road they just paved, behind my house. LOL!!! Seems like the need for speed doesn't decrease with age.... weird...8)
Bill, in Conway, Arkansas
I think I'm gonna celebrate by putting down a couple of stripes on this new road they just paved, behind my house. LOL!!! Seems like the need for speed doesn't decrease with age.... weird...8)
Bill, in Conway, Arkansas
mullinax95
Well-Known Member
If I make it to 70 I hope I will still have enough balls to do a burn out!
Much less have a blower on my motor! LOL!
I think they call it a case of "arrested development." LOL!
I guess I never got much past 16.... :clock:
I guess I never got much past 16.... :clock:
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