x and h pipes

[lead69]

Why yes, Tom Hand, son of Jim, owner of the 11.50 4100 pound Pontiac wagon that we did all the muffler tests on!
Tom

Great,thanks Tom,I figured that was your muffler info,its funny a pontiac build just came up recently here in another thread-my apologies to the mopar only guys for straying off thread:-D.I learned a tremendous amount from Jims book when I was building pontiacs,I still love them but it was time to build something new,my first love was a 71 340 four speed duster so I had to build one.My old pontiac ran 12.70s when I sold it with a mild 400,t400,3.42s and 29in. tire at 3700lb.-I learned alot about porting from your dads book and alot of the tech crosses over,thank you again and tell your dad thanks,heres a pic of my old ride.BTW,thats where my name lead-69 came from-it was alot of steel.

 

[mullinax95]

how well would a glasspack like purple hornies or cherry bombs flow compared to something like the ultra flows? i know the ultra flows would probably outflow em, but are they atleast better than 2 chambers?

I don't like glass packs no matter how well they flow. They just don't have that DEEP muscle car sound.

BRAAAAAAAAACCCCCKKKKK! BRRRAAAAAACCCCCKKKKKK!

 

[dgc333]

An Ultra Flo or Magnflow or any other number of similar mufflers are nothing more than a glass pak with more packing material. Certainly the sound can be modified but 2.5" pipe is going to flow the same regardless if it has a small case (glass pak) around it or a much larger one (ultra flo / magnaflow).

That being said the raw flow rate capability of a muffler is of little importance. They all flow more than the engine can produce providing they are the proper size for the engine.

Not long ago I read a SAE article on designing a zero loss exhaust system and the simple take away was that its simpler to design a zero loss system with a chambered muffler than with an absorption muffler (glass pak / Magnflow). The reason being is the tail pipe after the muffler become irrelevant in the overall design where the tail pipe looks like a restriction to the system with the absorption muffler and needs to be factored into the design.

 

[stroked 340]

ANY X-pipe is going to increase your torque and horsepower - 20 - 25 ft lbs of torque (minimum), 10- 20 hp gain !

Do you have some "real" world track numbers to back that up??..by the way about 10% of what they print in those mags MIGHT be true..

 

[mshred]

I don't like glass packs no matter how well they flow. They just don't have that DEEP muscle car sound.

BRAAAAAAAAACCCCCKKKKK! BRRRAAAAAACCCCCKKKKKK!

Hey Mullinax i agree with you 100%...almost all glasspacks ive heard sound like shite lol but recently ive been turned onto those purple hornies from flowtech...they sound pretty good compared to other glasspacks ive heard, but ive yet to hear one in person so i cant say for sure....as far as that true muscle car sound, i think the two chamber flowmaster is where its at, but they flow really bad compared to the dynomax's...i guess you have to decide if you want great sound and less flow or vice versa...the whole idea of an xpipe is attractive for me, but the only thing i dont like is how it quiets down the exhaust...I want my car to be LOUD, so i want loud mufflers, but i dont want to kill that loudness with the x...i guess Tom's chart will come in to help me decide:read2:

 

[mullinax95]

Hey Mullinax i agree with you 100%...almost all glasspacks ive heard sound like shite lol but recently ive been turned onto those purple hornies from flowtech...they sound pretty good compared to other glasspacks ive heard, but ive yet to hear one in person so i cant say for sure....as far as that true muscle car sound, i think the two chamber flowmaster is where its at, but they flow really bad compared to the dynomax's...i guess you have to decide if you want great sound and less flow or vice versa...the whole idea of an xpipe is attractive for me, but the only thing i dont like is how it quiets down the exhaust...I want my car to be LOUD, so i want loud mufflers, but i dont want to kill that loudness with the x...i guess Tom's chart will come in to help me decide:read2:

I have never dealt with the Ultra Flo but they flow better than the Flomaster 40 but has the absorption muffler (deep sound) build to them. Those have attention.

When I added the X pipe it did quieten down exhaust but it was not like you couldn't hear it. Now when I nail it that didn't change... it's still loud. From what I have learned in the last couple of days I would go with the same set up I have but instead use the Ultra Flos. My neighbor has a 302 Ford T-bird that he installed Magnaflows .... the stock system sounded better! That car sounds like a mix between a 4 and 6 cylinder now. He has not mentioned his exhaust system to me ever again after he did that! lol He should have at least installed glass packs! LOL!

 

[mshred]

I have never dealt with the Ultra Flo but they flow better than the Flomaster 40 but has the absorption muffler (deep sound) build to them. Those have attention.

When I added the X pipe it did quieten down exhaust but it was not like you couldn't hear it. Now when I nail it that didn't change... it's still loud. From what I have learned in the last couple of days I would go with the same set up I have but instead use the Ultra Flos. My neighbor has a 302 Ford T-bird that he installed Magnaflows .... the stock system sounded better! That car sounds like a mix between a 4 and 6 cylinder now. He has not mentioned his exhaust system to me ever again after he did that! lol He should have at least installed glass packs! LOL!

i agree with ya on the magnafarts...they make everything sound weird and wimpy...if you go on youtube there is a vid of a guy with a 71 cuda that has a race hemi and he changes from flowmasters to magnaflow race mufflers- sounds horrible! i dont care whose face is on them (sorry mario) or how well they flow, they sound BAD! For its either the dynomax's or the flowmasters...I would like to go with the ultra flows, but its hard to not go with super 40's knowing they sound BAD! (in a good way)...i guess its a compromise between what you want more- flow or sound...but the ultra flows are pretty similar i think in sound to the 40's so theyre worth a shot

 

[Dartboy52]

...I want my car to be LOUD, so i want loud mufflers, but i dont want to kill that loudness with the x...i guess Tom's chart will come in to help me decide:read2:

Don't let the fear of a quiet exhaust make you stray away from an X. They make the engine sound awsome, much better than without. I have supposedly quiet mufflers and trust me the x and these mufflers are not quiet. Here you go, love to help some people out with their decisions, this is my weak, worn out 318 with dynomax coated headers, $80 summit 2.5" X pipe and Hooker Aero Chambers(Hybrid of absorption and chamber, supposed to be pretty quiet... ha):

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/1971-Dodge-Dart-Swinger_75800.htm

 

[DQ81]

What do you guys think of Flowtech Raptors?

I have a true dual on my 318 in my '73 Dart with Hooker Performance headers and it's a pretty raw sound, I don't have an X or H pipe on there. I must say after reading all of this thread I"m still not decided on whether to go with an X or H pipe....my 318 won't rev over 5200 anyway probably so for the cost I should just pull my pipes off and put an H in right get a bit of low end torque and slightly better flow right?

 

[mullinax95]

What do you guys think of Flowtech Raptors?

I have a true dual on my 318 in my '73 Dart with Hooker Performance headers and it's a pretty raw sound, I don't have an X or H pipe on there. I must say after reading all of this thread I"m still not decided on whether to go with an X or H pipe....my 318 won't rev over 5200 anyway probably so for the cost I should just pull my pipes off and put an H in right get a bit of low end torque and slightly better flow right?

To tell you the honest truth I don't which is better. I've had both H and X. For me I put torque and all of that to the side and look at how the H and X works individually. The H to me seems to balance the exhaust instead of having to separate pipes which good for both sides of the motor. The X forces the combination into one rather have the exhaust kind of floating by like with the H. So it seems to me that the X should work better. Does that make any since? Don't feel bad... it didn't make any since to me either. LOL

 

[MopaR&D]

With the X it's more like as one side flows past the X, its inertia creates sort of a "vacuum" that pulls the exhaust from the engine out more quickly from the other side. I imagine the H does the same thing, just with less effectiveness because each side doesn't flow right past the other one side-to-side like the X; it has to sort of "reach through" the connecting pipe and overcome those sharp 90* bends.

 

[mshred]

that 318 sounds pretty good....i think im going to consider the X...if it makes more power, then why not? this info has all been very helpful for me

 

[VOETOM]

DQ81, not too bad as far as sound level, they sounded sort of goofy from what I recall. Pretty restrictive to straight air flow. The Corvair turbo sounded and worked a bit better in my opinion.

 

[rumblefish360]

this is my weak, worn out 318 with dynomax coated headers, $80 summit 2.5" X pipe and Hooker Aero Chambers(Hybrid of absorption and chamber, supposed to be pretty quiet... ha):

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/1971-Dodge-Dart-Swinger_75800.htm

The Aero Chamber has no sort of sound deadening material at all. It is a chambered muffler. It is stepped inside with baffles. Lookie here;

http://store.summitracing.com/large...Aero+Chamber+Mufflers&img=hok-21500hkr_cp.jpg

I have them on my '79 Magnum with Headman headers on a stock low compresion 400 from '78. There quite until approx 60 mph. I don't know what it tachs, but it has 3.55 w/245/60/15's.

Below that, I can have a convo with the stero on. My 2-1/2 pipe is "H"ed and goes to the rear bumper.

 

[MopaR&D]

Don't let the fear of a quiet exhaust make you stray away from an X. They make the engine sound awsome, much better than without. I have supposedly quiet mufflers and trust me the x and these mufflers are not quiet. Here you go, love to help some people out with their decisions, this is my weak, worn out 318 with dynomax coated headers, $80 summit 2.5" X pipe and Hooker Aero Chambers(Hybrid of absorption and chamber, supposed to be pretty quiet... ha):

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/1971-Dodge-Dart-Swinger_75800.htm

What kind of cam you got in that thing?

 

[VOETOM]

Rumblefish, you are right that Areochambers are high tech and sound good but I have to respectfully disagree about the sound absorbing material. Here is a shot of my cutaway and you can clearly see the material surrounding the perforated chamber. Not much, .375" to .500" thick, but it is there to cut out the raspiness.
It is really sort of a simple expansion muffler, with sound absorbing material, and one Helmholtz tuning chamber. A sweet piece, flows a lot of air but a bit loud for me, not for others though.
Take care,
Tom

 

[VOETOM]

Here is shot to show the Helmholtz tuning chamber.

I have a lot of cutaways in my basement!

 

[2 Darts]

VOETOM,

I mean this in the nicest way. You know more about passing gas than anyone I've run across. Thanks especially for the flow data. This has been particularly helpful for me as I have yet to make a "commitment" to an exhaust system. For me, I think it will be a balance tube and ultraflows.

 

[mullinax95]

VOETOM,


There was a muffler company (Magnaflow I think) that did a exhaust on a car. They tried different ways of making the most HP/TQ just by changing the exhaust only. What they did was really wild. They had all different size pipes running along the exhaust that you wouldn't really thing would work but it did. I tried to find it the other night but I couldn't ... maybe you know what I'm talking about. It was a true "tuned exhaust" I guess you could say.

 

[VOETOM]

Mull, you got me. But I do recall one test where they were playing with smaller front pipes to keep the power up over big tube. I think it was Borla but it was in a magazine I think.

So many things have an affect that it is fair to say that you can select from the state-of-the art mufflers, pick the one with the best sound, and you will be happy. We were always looking for the quietest, highest flowing, highest performance ones in our tests so four or five HP either way did make differences. I guess our mission has always been somewhat different than many hot rodders.

72, that is very clever thing to say and I have to admit, it is an honor to hear it. However, there are much smarter folks out there in the business but we were lucky enough to have been able to run all the tests we did, make an awesome CD of their sounds, and then give away all the mufflers after we were finished with them. That was lots of fun.

Thank you for the comments.
Tom

 

[abodyjoe]

Here is data from our test a few years ago. Note sound levels with and without X.
About 75% were lower with the X.
Air flow is also something to note. For folks that like the chambered muffler sound, you can see they tend to be louder and on top of that, they do not pass near as much air as straight through mufflers, and it makes sense of course, why that is. When you compare the numbers though it is eye opening.
Look, even the old 1965 Corvair Turbo muffler is quieter and flowed more air than some of today's favorites. It is easy to see why they worked so well compared to stockers.
Tom

nice chart. do you have a bigger version that is a little easier to read? would love to check it out a little better.

 

[stroked 340]

Do you have some "real" world track numbers to back that up??..by the way about 10% of what they print in those mags MIGHT be true..

Waiting for those numbers...must be reading another article in some rag :read2:

 

[abodyjoe]

oh and X-pipe technology isn't all that new. it just got popular recently. check out the headers for a thunderbolt. same idea a an X-pipe with the way one side pipe crosses over to the other sides collector to scavenge . the exhaust.

 

[AdamR]

Waiting for those numbers...must be reading another article in some rag :read2:

Do you have numbers that say other wise ? We would all like to see those also.

 

[mullinax95]

oh and X-pipe technology isn't all that new. it just got popular recently. check out the headers for a thunderbolt. same idea a an X-pipe with the way one side pipe crosses over to the other sides collector to scavenge . the exhaust.

As if headers aren't a PITA already! LOL