Concealed Carry Class, Just Got Back

[ramcharger]

I thought I'd go to the range today and fire and my new snubby .357 Magnum. Lo and Behold, they were starting a class just as I walked in so I figured "what the heck" and jumped right in.

First the instructor took us in to the range to see how we shot. He had us shoot at 10 yards right hand only, both hands, left hand only, then at 25 yards right hand only, both hands then left hand only at 25 yards (That's a ***** BTW, especially with a little snub nose I've never shot even once before). I didn't do too bad and only missed the target once (about the size of a paper plate).

After that, it was class time including all laws and a Q&A, safety, how a clear a jam in an automatic (whack and rack while staying on target with a SA semi-auto 9mm with a pin fired laser), proper drawing of a weapon from a strong side holster (4 step process, 1: Hand straight down on to weapon. 2: Draw straight up. 3: Rotate up on target at hip 4: Thrust up and forward while aligning sights and bringing left hand from chest to brace strong hand in a "teacup isoclese" for the revolver shooters.) which is much, much harder to do than you might think. It's like learning a new country dance, lol. The instructor was blazing fast while doing this and steps 2 and 3 could barely be followed by the naked eye.

We practiced these manuevers for quite some time and then it was time for range qualification. This was done on a working range with everyone blazing away on a man size target and he would shout commands and intetionally try to confuse us to simulate the stress we would be under. "Ready position! Fire two one hand right! Fire three quick as you can! Emergency reload, holster! Draw to postion 3 and fire two, aim for head!, Holster! Fire two center of mass left hand only! Emergency reload 3 and fire 3 as quick as you can!" Jeez, It was tough my friends. Don't forget that there were 5 other active shooting lanes and some big caliber rapid fire stuff going off during qualification. It rattled me and I didn't expect to be rattled.

All said and done, I walked in at 10am and walked out with my cert at 5pm. I passed with 83% (passing is 70%), 198 out of 240. No too bad considering it was spur of the moment, I used a borrowed holster and brand new snubby I've never once fired with mixed ammo . BUT, I realized the following and will follow up:

1: I need to practice on some stuff and he told me what I was doing wrong.
2: My previous experience with slow firing big caliber revolvers and autos really didn't apply much to self-defense.
3: Stress really kills accuracy
4: The other students cracked up at the size of my hands... My left hand was so big that it prevented the clip from falling free on a Springfield Armory medium size auto and my right hand completely hid the snub during position 1 and 2 of the draw. A neat old guy (late 60's) in overalls and about 6'3 and 240 commented on it. He told me I should just go back to my .45LC Ruger Vaquero and wear a duster, lol.
5: The instructor also commented that I should go to a big auto that would clear my hands and that I did great on the "laser" test.
6: That little Taurus I got is a powerhouse but quite managable and accurate. I can't wait to put another 500 rounds through it!
7: I need to dab a little flourescent paint on my front sight.

So, this was just a heads up on what to expect if anyone is thinking of going through this kind of training. This was really comprehensive and a permit could be had with lesser training but now I know what I'm capable of and will be able to carry in confidence. Needless to say, I won't say when I get my permit as then it would no longer be concealed. :read2:

 

[MoparMuscleGuy]

Wecome my brother to the CCW Brotherhood.

 

[ramcharger]

Wecome my brother to the CCW Brotherhood.

8) I didn't know there was one. You'll have to PM me the secret handshake. :toothy10: JK! I learned today when the TTOC (transition to open carry) is permissible under threat. :read2:

 

[Purple Haze]

Yep I remember all that stuff, glad I don't have to anymore. Thanks to AZ new concealed carry law, permits are a thing of the past.

 

[ramcharger]

Yep I remember all that stuff, glad I don't have to anymore. Thanks to AZ new concealed carry law, permits are a thing of the past.

True but my permit will be valid in the following states:

AK*, AL, AR, AZ, DE, FL, GA, ID, IN, KS, KY, LA, MI, MO, MS, MT, NH, NC, ND, NE, NM, OK, PA, SD, TN, TX, UT, VT*, WY,

Can't beat that with a stick. 8)

 

[green1]

Lock your arm straight, to point. Lock your wrist. Don't bother with the sights. Look down your arm, that is what the gun is pointing at.
Always count how many times you fired. (new clip time) (trained by retired cops). Quick self defense, Don't bother aiming, pull it out and shoot; that right there, scares most perps, getting shot at.

 

[Purple Haze]

True but my permit will be valid in the following states:

AK*, AL, AR, AZ, DE, FL, GA, ID, IN, KS, KY, LA, MI, MO, MS, MT, NH, NC, ND, NE, NM, OK, PA, SD, TN, TX, UT, VT*, WY,

Can't beat that with a stick. 8)

Yeah, that's why I will probably keep mine anyway.

 

[ramcharger]

Lock your arm straight, to point. Lock your wrist. Don't bother with the sights. Look down your arm, that is what the gun is pointing at.
Always count how many times you fired. (new clip time) (trained by retired cops).

He came up behind us while on a stance on target (unloaded firearms) and whacked our arms from underneath. Those of us that were straight arming couldn't recover near as fast as those that had a true isocleces (bent elbows and push forward with right and pull back with left). Interesting stuff and yes, the instructor also added firing more shots than we had and expected us to reload and complete the instruction. Damn hard to do!

The straight arm point shooter in our group (the old colorado native guy) didn't do bad at all and beat me hands down in the quick fire but my shots were much better centered and when he said "Two to the head!", I got the target cold. Straight arm point shooter missed, but he did get the shots off quicker. Food for thought. Plus in the laser test, at position 3 he was always center of mass, I shot the perp in the balls almost every time until I learned to lean back like an old gunfighter, lol.

 

[ramcharger]

Yeah, that's why I will probably keep mine anyway.

May as well if you travel. Is yours from AZ?

 

[memike]

Congrat's ramcharger :happy10: Time well spent 8) Glad to hear another good guy is pack'in :cheers:

 

[ramcharger]

Congrat's ramcharger :happy10: Time well spent 8) Glad to hear another good guy is pack'in :cheers:

I could've done a hundred other things today but I really wanted to get this done for well over a year. The dogs were pissed off I was gone so long, but they'll get over it. One cool thing is that I'm allowed to save someone's life or a woman from rape in this state. Of course, I'll have to pay a lawyer but it's nice to know just in case. I have 7 sisters. I'll pay. :read2: Plus, we're taught to shoot to kill, not wound. No shooting in the leg or brandishing a weapon to intimidate. It's life, death or a woman's honor. The way it should be. It's almost a "Knight's Code" from days gone by.

I'd gladly give my life for a woman or man with children. Hell, I'm single. The world would get along just fine without me, but at the same time, I hope I never, ever have to use this huge responsibilty I've earned. This is just how I feel about it.

 

[green1]

He came up behind us while on a stance on target (unloaded firearms) and whacked our arms from underneath. Those of us that were straight arming couldn't recover near as fast as those that had a true isocleces (bent elbows and push forward with right and pull back with left). Interesting stuff and yes, the instructor also added firing more shots than we had and expected us to reload and complete the instruction. Damn hard to do!

The straight arm point shooter in our group (the old colorado native guy) didn't do bad at all and beat me hands down in the quick fire but my shots were much better centered and when he said "Two to the head!", I got the target cold. Straight arm point shooter missed, but he did get the shots off quicker. Food for thought. Plus in the laser test, at position 3 he was always center of mass, I shot the perp in the balls almost every time until I learned to lean back like an old gunfighter, lol.

yes, but, who comes up behind you, and hits your arm? unless you aren't aware? I used to carry a Model 27 S&W. Damn, what a weight, and only 6 bullets. Then found a Browning Hi power. 15 in the clip, more accurate, due to less recoil.

 

[Rice Nuker]

Colorado sounds pretty solid.. Sounds like you learned allot in short order.. Nice!

I am learning a little about gun laws in this communist state. I have a few good sources in municipalities. The laws here aren't as crappy as I had suspected. Just not as good as allot of other states.. Your story gives me inspiration. I live in the hills and there are shooting clubs around, maybe I can find some quality training. I handle my glock quite well but like you said, under high stress, things change dramatically.. I could use some professional techniques.

I could've done a hundred other things today but I really wanted to get this done for well over a year. The dogs were pissed off I was gone so long, but they'll get over it. One cool thing is that I'm allowed to save someone's life or a woman from rape in this state. Of course, I'll have to pay a lawyer but it's nice to know just in case. I have 7 sisters. I'll pay. :read2: Plus, we're taught to shoot to kill, not wound. No shooting in the leg or brandishing a weapon to intimidate. It's life, death or a woman's honor. The way it should be. It's almost a "Knight's Code" from days gone by.

I'd gladly give my life for a woman or man with children. Hell, I'm single. The world would get along just fine without me, but at the same time, I hope I never, ever have to use this huge responsibilty I've earned. This is just how I feel about it.

 

[ramcharger]

yes, but, who comes up behind you, and hits your arm? unless you aren't aware? I used to carry a Model 27 S&W. Damn, what a weight, and only 6 bullets. Then found a Browning Hi power. 15 in the clip, more accurate, due to less recoil.

I live in gangland here in the bario and he asked everyone why they were there. I told him where I live and he said "Oh yeah brother, I lived there too and I'm Hispanic. You need this permit."

The hit was to simulate both recoil and an attack, especially here where the threat will most likely come in a group other than the lone meth freak. This is also why strong side carry was emphasized as a cross draw can be blocked. A thrust is much harder to defend against vs. a slash. I grew up in Chi Town and learned this early, lol.

Great weapon BTW and a smokin' SA trigger pull. I love the craftsmanship too. I have to, by law, keep mine concealed. Shoot, I'd carry a BHP too if I could conceal it on me. This little Taurus in .357 will be tough to conceal too but easier than a BHP.... I'm looking into a bunch of options.

 

[nothingbutdarts]

Joe,
Sounds like a life learing day! What did the class cost and what will the permit cost? I have a Dan Wesson .357 mag. and I'm NOT a very good shot with it. Better if I **** the trigger however.

 

[ramcharger]

Colorado sounds pretty solid.. Sounds like you learned allot in short order.. Nice!

I am learning a little about gun laws in this communist state. I have a few good sources in municipalities. The laws here aren't as crappy as I had suspected. Just not as good as allot of other states.. Your story gives me inspiration. I live in the hills and there are shooting clubs around, maybe I can find some quality training. I handle my glock quite well but like you said, under high stress, things change dramatically.. I could use some professional techniques.

I don't know what state you live in but this training was incredibly helpful to me. Whether you are allowed to carry or not, it's still worth every dime!

 

[ramcharger]

Joe,
Sounds like a life learing day! What did the class cost and what will the permit cost? I have a Dan Wesson .357 mag. and I'm NOT a very good shot with it. Better if I **** the trigger however.

Class was $150 at the "Silver Bullet Shooting Range" in West Ridge and the permit is about a 150 bucks and a 90 day wait although some counties here are quicker.

Gotta run, be right back....

 

[MoparMuscleGuy]

Ok brother, I don't want to see you packing one of these under your shirt. LOLOLO

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBjUDCyDCuI&feature=related"]YouTube- Glock 298 rounds in full auto[/ame]

 

[dustertogo]

Interesting stuff alright. Lots of good points and observations made. Especially the need to practice more, and the observation ramcharger made about stress killing accuracy. We really do need to be exposed to at least some stress when firing on the range, so maybe we'll be able to deal with it somewhat. The worst stress I could imagine would be someone firing back at me. So while we practice at the range, we also need to prepare mentally as well, because targets don't fire back, but bad guys do. Just a thought. It's kind of like a fight, everybody thinks they know what they'll do until they get hit, and then everything changes.

 

[MoparMuscleGuy]

Interesting read on stress during a life threatening situation. I've heard a lot of this before during my training. Interestingly enough your hearing will go first in most cases of a life threatening attack. This is due to your fight of flight defense the body has. I will not bore you with the physiology aspect as to why.

CASE HISTORIES​

The following are actual case histories of police officers who discharged their weapons during the line of duty but have no memory of having done so:

Three patrol cars blocked in the car of suspect they were attempting to apprehend. The suspect began to ram the vehicles, presenting a deadly threat to some of the officers on the scene. Three officers opened fire on the suspect. The suspect jumped out of his vehicle, refused to show his hands, and continued to behave in suspicious manner. The officers continued to fire until the suspect gave up. He was taken into custody with minor injuries. A sergeant was standing in the vicinity of the three officers who initially opened fire. When the homicide detectives arrived the three officers who fired reported discharging their weapons. The sergeant did not report firing his weapon nor did any of the officers report hearing the sergeant’s weapon go off. After providing a brief description of his involvement in the incident, the sergeant went home and performed his cursory daily wipe down of his weapon then went to sleep. The next day he was called in by the detectives to explore the possibility that he had fired his weapon at the scene. The sergeant reported no recollection of firing his weapon but conceded it was, of course, possible. It became apparent that the detectives had obtained physical evidence indicating that the sergeant had indeed discharged his weapon. They did not believe the sergeant could not remember having done so and immediately suspected him of untruthfulness. They were further bothered by the fact that the sergeant admitted wiping down his gun and believed this was part of his cover-up. The sergeant was placed on administrative leave and within a week received a notice of intent to terminate letter based on the allegations that he had been untruthful and had attempted to cover up firing his weapon. His association informed the police department they intended to file legal action on the sergeant’s behalf for unlawful termination. A deal was truck to delay the sergeant’s termination and he was granted a stress-related medical retirement.



A deputy stopped a drunk driver as the driver was pulling into his home’s driveway. The driver got out and went inside his home. The deputy called for back-up and asked the driver to come outside. The driver refused, telling the deputy to come inside, which he did. The deputy found the driver sitting on a couch with a gun next to him. The deputy retreated, yelling for the driver to not touch the gun. Confused, the deputy wound up going into the basement. The driver followed, gun in hand. The deputy called for help and got out of the basement. The driver was found dead at the top of the stairs. The deputy swears he did not shoot, but it was later discovered the deputy had in fact fired four rounds. The deputy saw the muzzle flashes but thought they were coming from the driving shooting at him. The deputy was cleared but retired because of stress.

A male gangster was holding a couple in their 90's as hostages. A patrol sergeant shot the suspect along with two other officers. He remembers seeing a muzzle flash and thought it was the suspect firing at him. He was shocked to find out the suspect had not actually shot at him. It was really his own muzzle flash that he saw. He had to look at his own magazine to see if he had really fired or not.

An officer stepped out of his squad car after pursuing an offender who spun out on a slick entrance ramp. As he stepped out he slipped and fired a round through the offender’s windshield. The round barely touched the offender’s neck. The officer insisted he did not have his finger on the trigger or consider shooting.

An officer shot a suspect twice with a shotgun to prevent him from entering a residence and taking a hostage. It was a justified shooting but the officer only remembers firing one of the two rounds. The shooting review board found one round “in policy” and one round “out of policy”. Their reasoning was that both rounds were justified, but since he couldn’t remember one of them, it must be out of policy.

There were two incidents in which officers fired unintentionally and did not immediately realize they had done so. But once their brains sorted out the incoming data (i.e., I’m bleeding, my gun is smoking, and there is no one else here) they realized what had happened.

An officer was involved in a shooting with another officer and suspect in which over 20 total rounds were fired. Immediately after the shooting she couldn’t remember if for sure if she had fired her weapon.. She remained unsure until around one hour later when she and her lieutenant checked her weapon and actually counted the rounds.


Additional cases are available in the research report written by Klinger (2001). His extensive interviews of 80 officers involved in 113 separate shootings revealed additional cases of officer who fired their weapons but did not realize they were doing so as it happened:




An officer was shot at close range by a suspect who then immediately fled the location. The suspect was captured nearby after losing a gun battle with the injured officer’s partner. It was discovered during the post-shooting investigation that the first officer had fired one round that struck the suspect during the initial confrontation in which he himself had been shot. However, the first officer had no recollection that he had fired his gun.

In one case the only reason an officer knew that he had fired four rounds is that he knew that he carried four rounds in his shotgun, which he emptied at the suspect. He did not recall firing four rounds, he just deduced from his empty shotgun he had done so.

In another case, an officer knew that he had fired his semi-automatic handgun only because when he looked down the frame to obtain a sight picture on an armed suspect he saw that the hammer was cocked back, which could only have happened if he had already fired.

Solomon (1997) reported two additional cases:

Two officers confront a suspect who takes one of them hostage. The suspect forces the hostage officer into the police car with the officer behind the wheel and orders him to drive off. As he turned on the ignition the other officer shot the suspect through the windshield. The next thing he remembers is helping the officer out of the car. The suspect is dead. The investigation revealed that the suspect was killed by shots fired through the drivers side window. However, the officer said he only fired through the windshield and did not know shots had been fired through the side window or who could have fired them. However, the hostage officer confirmed that the officer had in fact fired two shots through the side window after firing through the windshield. The officer had no recollection of going to the side of the car or firing his weapon there until six years later at a critical incident workshop.

Several officers were in pursuit of an armed suspect, when he crashed his car. As an officer approached the car the suspect got out, weapon in hand. The next thing the officer remembers is standing over the suspect who was fatally shot. Witnesses and physical evidence clearly show the officer shot the suspect. The officer, however, does not recall shooting him.

In addition to these on duty incidents, Trooper Mike Conti of the Massachusetts State Police Academy reported the following in a personal communication:




Have built a new firearms training program for Mass State Police; the “New Paradigm” we call it. Incorporated in the program is a Stress Inoculation Training program called the “House of Horror”. Over 2300 people trained so far, one at a time. Six minutes long. Eight stations where they must decide on what to do while operating with a pistol in their hands. True high arousal state induced 100% of the time. Physical and Psychological effects consistently observed. Documented memory gaps experienced by 85% to 90% of all who have participated. Not remembering what they did, if they shot at particular stations, etc. THIS IN TRAINING, never mind actual situation. Also tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, etc., experienced by all who participate.

 

[ramcharger]

Ok brother, I don't want to see you packing one of these under your shirt. LOLOLO

YouTube- Glock 298 rounds in full auto

LMAO! I'd need a bigger shirt with that dual drum mag! I forgot to mention that we were also practiced on the semi-autos to keep the mags on our left and to keep our left index finger on the nose of the round in mag ensuring that the mag would be inserted in the correct way.

I love Glocks!!! I had a model 23 with Meprolight Night Sights. Great weapon. :toothy10:

Interesting stuff alright. Lots of good points and observations made. Especially the need to practice more, and the observation ramcharger made about stress killing accuracy. We really do need to be exposed to at least some stress when firing on the range, so maybe we'll be able to deal with it somewhat. The worst stress I could imagine would be someone firing back at me. So while we practice at the range, we also need to prepare mentally as well, because targets don't fire back, but bad guys do. Just a thought. It's kind of like a fight, everybody thinks they know what they'll do until they get hit, and then everything changes.

100% correct dustertogo! The stress the instructor put me under was no where near as bad as it could be but still, my accuracy dropped considerably...

Practice builds muscle memory so I don't have to think AFTER making the decision to shoot. The funny thing is, the one gal who was retired military fired the best qualifiying score under stress but the worst slow fire. I did the opposite in our group because that's how I learned, slow fire and always be sure of your target. I was taught to hunt. She was trained to kill under very stressfull circumstances and was wounded by an IAD in Afganistan. She had been there, done that and will soon be in a wheel chair hence her need for a CCW. She could barely stand and shook like a leaf under normal circumstances, but under stress she was a killer, no joke. God Bless her...

 

[ramcharger]

Interesting read on stress during a life threatening situation. I've heard a lot of this before during my training. Interestingly enough your hearing will go first in most cases of a life threatening attack. This is due to your fight of flight defense the body has. I will not bore you with the physiology aspect as to why.

Wow! Having some psychology courses in college I CAN see why this would happen and was told of "Tunnel Vision" by my instructor. He told us that after the fact, if God forbid we had to do what we were trained to do, to be honest and not lawyer up right away if we did as we were trained, and to be forthright.

My nephew is a Marine and a cop in IL. I'll need to talk to him soon.

 

[green1]

Every heard a bullet just miss your head? Sounds like 2 pissed -off bumble bees at full speed , I carry, now, with a permit.

 

[ramcharger]

Every heard a bullet just miss your head? Sounds like 2 pissed -off bumble bees at full speed , I carry, now, with a permit.

Thank Goodness only a ricochet or two over the years. I have had guns pointed right at my head at 3 feet away. Long story,,,

 

[thanson_mopar]

very cool, my next....and probably last, as I will keep it.....will be a ruger .357 revolver. I love revolvers, nice to not worry about a jam. I have looked into Taurus, but haven't heard much about them....pretty solid?