1/4 mile times

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That combo you have (with a good converter) will go 12.0s all day long, if not high 11s, don't start throwing more parts at it, because what will you do if it STILL doesn't run right, its all in the TUNE period, everything needs to be dialed in, thats the "tune", guys in 440 A bodies with your stuff run mid 11s all the time, if they can do it, so can you, if i sound alittle "harsh" by making this statement i'm about to make, i appologize! Don't be lazy, you put this stuff together, now your looking to spend more changing gears/cam/heads ect., start tuneing what you have, i tuned a full second out of mine, your gears & 741 case are good to go for now, the .509 will run mid 11s easy, even that TCI 2800 converter will be good for 12s, i'm sure your intentions were to run as fast as possible when you built it, 106/107/109 mph is weak, that tells everything, if you were running 13s @ 117, then i'd say yeah, you have traction issues, so get after "what you have" & start tuning, you are going to find that the main 2 things that are holding you back are Timing & converter, you won't gain much by jetting if the carb has the stock jets in it now (i'll garuantee you that), i will say that most all MP cams are way off when you line up the dots, they will be retarded, Do you want a quick fix on the gearing, put some 26-27" slicks or DRs on it, those 275s are 28" tall, theres your 4.11s going with a shorter tire, it'll still hook great & you don't have to tare the rearend apart, start with the simple things 1st., you'll see it'll be running mid 12s in know time, get a good converter (that matches the cams torque curve), you'll be in the high 11s, low 12s i'm sure, & then it'll be roasting the tires at will, i met a guy that ran over 120 mph with a .509 cam. & iron heads, so the potentials there.
 
yep i agree on the cam - it could be that 509 is retarded too far - that would kill it right there


i didnt see it , but is that a DP holley or a 3310 ?
 
ok understood,
I belive you just repeated what i just posted i was doing so i guess im finnally gettting it?
Like i said , tuning first.... then go for converter if it seems to need it to get to my e.t. i want to hit, then if needed look into better gears later on.

carb is a 3310-2 holley never had it apart to check jetting and ect..
Tires are drag radials now that are almost brand new so rather not change now if i dont have to... but like i said gearing and ect is only going to get done if i need it.
I am very short of money so when i say im doing a gear change it means it will be probly 5 months from now...im going to get what i have dialed in and go out in a month and try again. if it needs further gearing...converter...anything else then that will get thought out as well later on. With the budget im on throwing parts at it. the only thing ill throw at it rite now before tunign is wrenches for not getting it rite haha.
But for now.... tune,timeing,suspension, and take it back out and try again.
And for spinning tire.. my mickey drag radials i ran before at street psi i think 44 and hit 12's without spinning tire. so i think i can use them a little longer.. but we will see like i said . after it gets tuned in and shifting rite and launching better ill see how it goes then.

You guys understand the frustration when you go out and spend the time to get the car running faster and it goes slower even though i knew the car wasnt dialed in. But i go to the track maby 4 times a year so i dont have much test n tune time.
But thanks for the help on this anyways. its all getting soaked in.
 
hamesdart said:
ok understood,
I belive you just repeated what i just posted i was doing so i guess im finnally gettting it?
Like i said , tuning first.... then go for converter if it seems to need it to get to my e.t. i want to hit, then if needed look into better gears later on.

carb is a 3310-2 holley never had it apart to check jetting and ect..
Tires are drag radials now that are almost brand new so rather not change now if i dont have to... but like i said gearing and ect is only going to get done if i need it.
I am very short of money so when i say im doing a gear change it means it will be probly 5 months from now...im going to get what i have dialed in and go out in a month and try again. if it needs further gearing...converter...anything else then that will get thought out as well later on. With the budget im on throwing parts at it. the only thing ill throw at it rite now before tunign is wrenches for not getting it rite haha.
But for now.... tune,timeing,suspension, and take it back out and try again.
And for spinning tire.. my mickey drag radials i ran before at street psi i think 44 and hit 12's without spinning tire. so i think i can use them a little longer.. but we will see like i said . after it gets tuned in and shifting rite and launching better ill see how it goes then.

You guys understand the frustration when you go out and spend the time to get the car running faster and it goes slower even though i knew the car wasnt dialed in. But i go to the track maby 4 times a year so i dont have much test n tune time.
But thanks for the help on this anyways. its all getting soaked in.
Click to expand...

Ok, its a 3310, no real biggie there, you can get a quick fuel MB kit for the rear, then jet it @ 72/80 (block off the rear PV), then get the QF adj. Vacuum Pod, they are great, just a turn with a screwdriver, no spring changes. I will say with that 109 mph you did, thats a 12.3 pass with a good 60ft.
 
i respectfully disagree on the carb Joe - 8)

he's on a tight budget (i know that feeling all to well)

that car would love a 850 DP. My old cuda did with a similar combo .

For now , id make sure the carb is nice and clean and jet it up --as we know it only has primary jets , and possibly put the "lightest" spring you can in the diaphragm . Isnt it the yellow? or purple ? i cant remember . That way he isnt dumping extra $ into a carb that isnt going to be the best for the car in the future .
You can always sell the 750 and get a nice clean used 850dp next year

Hames--I will dig thru my Holley parts box - i might still have some secondary springs for that carb -- if so, you can have them . Plus a few jets-- i will never need any that small and ive got a ton of them -- so there ya go , $0 for a carb upgrade :cheers:
 
496dart said:
i respectfully disagree on the carb Joe - 8)

he's on a tight budget (i know that feeling all to well)

that car would love a 850 DP. My old cuda did with a similar combo .

For now , id make sure the carb is nice and clean and jet it up --as we know it only has primary jets , and possibly put the "lightest" spring you can in the diaphragm . Isnt it the yellow? or purple ? i cant remember . That way he isnt dumping extra $ into a carb that isnt going to be the best for the car in the future .
You can always sell the 750 and get a nice clean used 850dp next year

Hames--I will dig thru my Holley parts box - i might still have some secondary springs for that carb -- if so, you can have them . Plus a few jets-- i will never need any that small and ive got a ton of them -- so there ya go , $0 for a carb upgrade :cheers:
Click to expand...

Didn't know if he would want to keep the 3310 or not, but yeah, a DPer would be better, those parts i suggested aren't too exspensive, maybe he can find a swapmeet 850, then kit it, but most i've seen for 75-100.00 are wore out, meaning the base is shot & they may have water damage, then he will get into alot trying to fix it, you can make a 3310 run fairly good, i build holleys on the side & buy this stuff all the time, theres alot of junk out there people want big bucks for 8), if his 3310 is a good clean one, those parts will set him back less then 100.00, i myself drill the plate on the 3310s, but most don't want to mess with that, i also install screw in air bleeds on all my vacuum sec. carbs as well. But i do like DPers better.

The "white" springs the lightest.
 
Well The answer on the carb is upgrade later on like was mentioned.
I have never ripped into it so i dont know what it has and i dont have much carb tuning experience yet anyway but its time to learn so i can do at track tuning.up until now the carb and fuel seemed fine and still maby but i still would like to get the carb upgraded to a fresh 850dp later on in the winter.

As of now i have one more race oct 25 then im gonna take a few months off so the car can get torn into again and do the more serious upgrades.
Im going to do the obvious tuning and timing and suspension like i said. and maby depending on money and what everyone thinks maby the converter as well. gears seem to be the only thing everyone dosnt agree on.

And keep in mind after the race is when the motor is going in for a re-ring and bearing and get a set of decent pistons too so i have piston to valve clearence and make sure the motor is fresh and go a slightly bigger cam, solid or hydrolic... havnt decided yet but will probly be around 540-560 lift.
so the converter/gears/carb need to be not too far off the new setup.

So the plan is serious tuning on the engine/suspension and maby a converter,then see how that does next month, and check shift points and rpm at trap speed and see if it needs gears as well.

What do you guys think?

Budget for me is a whollllle different meaning for most. im 20 with a 3 year old and im taking car of my dad already too so im in debt about 200 a month haha but I manage through side jobs and such, so having this car running 12's is a blessing already so thats why buying more and more parts just cant happen for me, just want a nice low 12 , high 11 second car i can drive on the weekends.

For converter what do you guys think, i was thinking hughes? decent prices and reputation, and what about stall?
 
This is the last thing I'll say regarding timing and it won't cost you a penny, I think I posted this earlier. If the MSD dist was put in out of the box with no changes, you're screwed on timing.

Take the Dist out and put the BLACK advance bushing on which limits the mech adv to ~18*. Put the light blue and light silver springs on the advance weights. You have to make sure the mechanical advance isn't bleeding in at idle. It shouldn't be an issue if you can get the car to idle at around 900-950 in neutral. If it bleeds in mechanical, you need to put a heavier spring in.

Here are the instructions for a SB dist, same thing for a BB.
http://www.msdignition.com/instructions/Products/Distributors/8534.pdf?terms=8534

Put it back in and set the initial at 18* which should give you 36 total. If you run race gas in it, bump it to 20-22* initial. If you timed it for total, the dist comes with a 21* advance bushing installed, so you'll gain 3* of initial which can make a big difference. IMHO, you need an even larger bushing that limits mechanical advance to about 12-15*.

Or... this is what I would do... lock out the distributor and put a hot toggle switch in the MSD small red switching wire, time it at 34-36* total. Crank the car with the key, then flip the hot switch to fire it. That way you aren't killing the starter/battery. Same concept guys do it with magneto cars. Car would shut off as normal when you turn the key to off. That would wake the byatch up!!!

Take 496Dart up on his offer of springs for the springs, jets whatever. White is the lightest, short yellow, then tall yellow. Put the lightest spring in that the engine won't have a slight bog. The bog is caused because the light spring may allow the secondary to flutter.

Jet the carb with a 72 primary and a 4.5 power valve. If you take the PV out, jet it to 80.

All that carb stuff will cost less than $20, Kragen has power valves for about $10 IIRC

I've seen HUNDREDS of cars over the years with bad throttle response or "junk" holley carbs. With about 10 minutes of time using a timing light, vacuum gauge and small screwdriver, 99.9% of those junk carbs run 1000% better at idle and have crisp response. You have to make adjustments to the mechanical advance to limit total to your desired number, but, that's just part of making a hot rod run. Ignition timing IMO, is the #1 most misunderstood and ignored setting on a car.

What track are you going to in Oct?

I commend you for taking care of your father, :cheers:
I do the same with my Mom and it's a tough deal sometimes.
 
And you might find yourself making your own advance bushing out of a ground down nut, like I did.
The silver and blue spring set up is a good recommendation cracked, right on!
 
ok well tomorrow ill go through the distributer, see what i have for timing rite now, and springs ect... and go for that,
And for holley parts! bring em!!!! anything i can use great, im planning on getting the little jetting tools...kit ect later but for now timing i know is the big issue, when the distributer was put back in it has the slotted shaft and was not marked going out/in so it could have been about 180* of i guess but dont forget...the car went out with no tuning/timing whatsoever. and im taking most these times with a grain of salt knowing it wasnt going to run even 80 % of its potential. Ill have to learn a little more on timing and carbs since rite now most stuff you guys are saying im going back and googleing haha but ill get it all down,

Thanks guys ill let you know how tommoro goes and what we get on timing and when i check springs ect.. i dont know what the distributer / carb was set up with so far but it may have the rite springs...better jets and so on since the rest of the car had some great work and was fairly tuned into high 12's but ill check it all again.

thanks
 
distributer springs are just the silver, heres some pics ,need to look at bushings next. and then check timing / compression

P1000957.jpg


P1000960.jpg
 
ok cant seem to find the weights/bushings.....
I have the billet, not the pro billet, does the billet have this adjustment?
the springs yes but i cant find the weights and bushnings on this thing.
 
Did you look at the instructions? Looks the same as my pro billet.

Look on the bottom side of that plate for the bushing/nut.

The weights are what the springs attach to and won't be changed.

If you don't have the springs or bushings, follow the instructions to lock it out.
 
well so if it has no bushings now.... and just the springs & weights the previous owner mite have locked it out already rite?
Why would you run it like this? without bushings but leave the springs and weights? how does it do locked out? whats the point of locking out? dosnt that eliminate all adjustment? just got more questions now haha.
 
oh yah that compression reading was with the carb closed and dirty ol air filter on.... but im gonna recheck wide open later after i charge the battery.
Another thing tooo i found was even with wide open throttle the secondaries are not opening.... mmmmm maby a problem there?
Also it does have one of those big 2" spacers and i was thinkin maby try taking that off... the spacer does kinda change rmp range a bitt kinda like a higher rise intake i would imagine rite? just some thoughts whatcha guys think?

Also this car does not run a kickdown linkage... i know he had the trans built decent with the reverse manual valve body and blah blah blah but do those kits elimitate the kickdown or no?

P1000961.jpg


P1000962.jpg
 
To get the best compression readings, you need to do these things.

Get engine to (or close) to operating temp.
Pull ALL spark plugs
Open throttle all the way & tie it off, with it being a vacuum sec. carb, the rear butterflies will not open with the engine off, you need to figure a way off tying them open too.
Make sure the battery is at full charge, or strap a trickle charger to it while running the test.
Use a romote starter switch hooked to the starter relay.
Crank engine, run 4-5 strokes on the guage, your 1st. comp. stroke will read the highest, take note of this reading as your running through the strokes.
 
I don't know if any one remembers years ago Car Craft did a feature 440 build up by Pro Parts for a 73 Duster, .509 camshaft, 9.8 to 1 compression, 346 heads ? ,Holley strip dominator intake with a 750 DP carb. All basic parts, the motor put out 511hp and the Duster ran a 10.86 i believe. i could look up the article to be more specific. It just shows you for the most part you have the right parts but needs to be tuned. I really wouldn't be concerned about anything to do with suspension at this point. Set the ign timing as said, make sure the carb jetting is near where it would be from the factory. And get a Tach!!!!!!!!! if it still don't perform check the cam timing. Where do you live? Im in Lancaster. joe
 
I pretty much had the same motor.
440 in a 69 charger
the compression was only 9 or so
430 gears
bone stock 906 heads.
locked out dis. @ 37*
stock leafs springs
750 holly. tuned with a 12.8 a/f
3200 stall

These times are from many many years ago..if i remeber right:

60* where around 1.90
mph was 107 @ 12.60's

when you get into changing heads that could flow alot more you might hurt other things in your combo.

good luck
 
yes i read the atricle. excact build as mine even headers but they used iron heads and no elec ignition and a weaker coil but other then that they posted like 509-511hp with bolt ons.... not too bad, im not just doing timing and tuning though, since i have a month getting suspension done wouldnt hurt either... i mean obviously getting the car to run harder 1st is most importent but thats only going to take a few days to dial in perfect.. then i have some more time do get other loose ends buttened up and going good.

Im in oak view, about 15 miles from ventura.
 
What track are you going to in Oct?

Look at the instructions and the bottom side of that advance weight plate. Those hooked pieces are the advance weights. The limiter is on the bottom side of that plate... NOT under the weights themself. MSD use a GM style advance system on most all their stuff.

Read the instructions and look at the distributor while you have it out. It will help a bunch.

I still think the hot switch and locking it out will be best, unless you make your own bushing.
 
I race a famoso raceway, in bakersfield.
As far as weights and so on,... im still not understanding how people do away with that whole set-up.
What does that do to your whole function of the timing, im not too familiar with timing and msd advancing,,,curves..and so on so this is all chinese to me, but as of now i guess i still have to find the bushing if it has one, to me it looked like they half way locked it out since i dont see some of the parts that are supposted to be there but this is also a billet not a pro billet if it makes a difference,, ill investigate it further but now im gonna take the rest of my compression readings and timing check
 
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