2009+ 5.7 Hemi Eagle

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Modern muscle now has an engine management kit available for the 09 to present 5.7 eagle hemi and the 6.4 apache engines. Talk to Dave Weber I sent them a message on Sunday and within four hours I had a reply. Seem to be good guys to deal with.

http://www.modernmuscleperformance.com/mobile/default.aspx#P39298

Others can do this too. Like BG and Hotwire. Call them and see what they have to say.

It can be done for less than what Modern Muscle wants, but their price includes tuning via email so long as you have a Diablo sport intune tuner.
 
Interesting read on the phaser limiters:

"Chrysler 5.7L and 6.4L engine cam phasers, how they work, their limitations, and how COMP uses them for making more power
What are cam phasers?
Chrysler’s cam phasers are specially designed, computer controlled cam gears that have the ability to adjust camshaft position while the engine is running. They are used on all 2009 5.7L and 2011 6.4L newer engines.
How do they work?
Engine oil is pressure fed through a series of passageways in the cylinder heads and camshafts, out to the cam phasers. The engine computer controls a pair of solenoids that adjust this oil flow into, and out of, a series of chambers inside the cam gear. Located inside these chambers are vanes, attached to a spring-loaded central hub. The hub is directly attached to the camshaft, and as oil is allowed into and out of these chambers, the position of the cam can be retarded up to 38 crankshaft degrees.
Why did Chrysler put them in the engine?
Chrysler’s primary reason for using cam phasers was to increase the engine’s efficiency by reducing its pumping losses. Basically, when the cams are retarded 15-30 degrees, during part throttle engine operation, it takes less power to turn the engine over. This helps to increase the engine’s fuel efficiency, but an additional power benefit is also realized by being able to position the camshaft for maximum power, regardless of what rpm the engine is running at. This results in an engine that makes more torque and horsepower and extends the high rpm power-band by an additional 800-1000 rpm.
Why should I modify the cam phasers with COMP’s limiter kit?
If there is a downside to the cam phaser as designed by Chrysler, it is that they have such a wide range of movement. Since the cam can theoretically be retarded by up to 38 degrees, there is very little piston to valve clearance in the engine. This minimal piston to valve clearance limits us to fairly small cam profiles with very little overlap; not the best for making maximum power or achieving an aggressive idle sound.
What does COMP’s cam phaser limiter kit do?
COMP’s Cam Phaser Limiter is a precision made spacer that installs into the cam gear’s oil chambers. This spacer takes up excess volume that would normally be used by the factory cam gear for movement. By installing cam phaser limiter, the cam design window opens up, allowing you to install big, powerful camshafts with safe piston to valve clearances. At the same time, by keeping up to 14 degrees of movement available, all of the wide-open throttle benefits of the cam phasing can still be retained. The normal maximum retard the cams see at wide-open throttle is only around 9 degrees with factory programming.
Why can’t I just reprogram the ECU to limit cam phaser movement?
Since Chrysler’s factory engine computer is programmable, the question arises as to why you can’t simply program in the limits and not bother with mechanically limiting the cam phaser. Theoretically you could do that, but a problem arises if something happens that would cause the engine’s rpm to shift faster than the cam phaser controls can react to. For example, if you ever missed a shift, broke a driveline part, did a clutch dump on a sticky set of slicks, or anything that could for a split second cause the cam phaser to get out of its programmed limit, the valves could crash into the pistons. By
mechanically limiting the maximum movement of the cam phaser, total engine safety is assured when running a big performance cams in these engines.
Do I have to reprogram my engine’s computer after installing COMP’s Cam Phaser Limiter Kit?
Yes, you MUST have your engine’s computer reprogrammed for the engine to operate properly after installing the cam phaser limiters. The Chrysler factory computer does a diagnostic sweep test of the cam phaser upon start-up. If the computer cannot get the cam phaser to reach their programmed maximum limit, an error mode occurs. When reprogramming your computer; just make sure that the maximum retard amount entered for any of the cam phaser tables in your tuning software does not exceed 14 degrees."

http://www.challengerforumz.com/archive/index.php/t-83250.html
 
Pretty sure the 5.7 and 6.4 or NOT sharing the same block. 6.4s have a 4.09 bore I believe.
 
Thanks for the update. I haven't done any further research on the Eagle update, it's nice to see someone figuring out how to modify them.

Like the idea of a VVT and variable intake runner length, but since I already have an 06 6.1L Hemi my interest has waned.

Regards,

Joe Dokes
 
I've been following and learning from this thread a while. I am in the process of building an 09 eagle I bought at a salvage yard.
I will be using megasquirt ms3 that I had previously used on an 03 5.7 hemi. I have installed a 6.4 hemi cam with the compcams cam lock.
The problem I ran into is trying to select the correct valve springs for the cam I have. I've called Jeg's and was told their springs are only for 03-08 engines.
I purchased a subscription from Mitchell1Diy for an 09 ram and it gives a 1.81 inch valve spring installed height which is the same installed height as a 03 motor.
I tried as best as I could to physically measure the installed height on my engine with my digital calipers and came up with a reading of 1.94.
So now that leads me to believe I either measured wrong or the installed height spec on mitchell1diy is incorrect.
I would appreciate any input on this.
 
I suggest you contact Dave webber at modern muscle. He can get you the springs and or ibfo you need.

http://www.modernmuscleperformance.com/mobile/default.aspx#Contact

There are many others that are more knowledgeable than jegs or summit that can get you the right stuff...

Inertia Motorsport
HHP
and several others... Search around and make some calls and you will find what u need.
 
Too bad variable valve timing has to be such a can of worms. Hell, by now we shouldn't even HAVE mechanical cams, LOL
 
67Dart273 said:
Too bad variable valve timing has to be such a can of worms. Hell, by now we shouldn't even HAVE mechanical cams, LOL
Click to expand...


True that. The tuning is still in its infancy but it will get better in time. I'm going with the 6.4 cam because they seem to be a lil bit easier to tune than say the Comp 274 cam which is a bear for most to tune. As the warranty expires on cars with these engines we will see more people modifying them and the tuning will come.

:burnout:
 
swinger74 said:
were does the 3,000 number come from when using the stock harness? why would you have to get rid if the MDS? As i was looking at using a 09 and up challenger with the 6 speed manual. could you possibly post the link?
Click to expand...

Get a 2009+ 5.7 that was for a 6-speed and it does not use the MDS. That would be my suggestion, although finding one may present a problem. Probably better off buying a NEW 6.4 for manual transmission. Could be cheaper in the long run.
 
You know you can change the cranks toner wheel right???? It's a bolt one if you want to run the Hemi-6 controller and a carb--Steve
 
Or.... You could leave the bottom end intact and avoid having to replace the rod bolts, which are torque to yeild, and tone wheel by simply using the FAST XIM ignition box and Comp phaser lock outs. Then any 6.1 carb style intake will work.
 
2010 5.7 torque specs

block pipe plugs 1/4 npt 15 Ft./Lbs
block pipe plugs 3/8 npt 20 Ft./Lbs
Camshaft Sproket Bolt 90 Ft./Lbs
Camshaft tensioner plate bolts 21 Ft./lbs
timming chain Case cover bolts 21 ft/lbs
timming chain case cover stud lifting stud 41 ft/lbs
connecting rod cap bolts 15 ft/lbs + 90* degree turn
Main bearing cap M-12 bolts 20 ft/lbs + 90* degree turn
Main bearing M-8 crossbolts 21 ft/lbs
cylinder head M12 bolts step #1 25 ft/lbs step #2 40 ft/lbs step #3 turn 90 degree
cylinder head M-8 bolts step#1 20 ft/lbs step #2 25 ft/lbs
cylinder head cover bolts 71 in/lbs
exahaust manifold to head 18 ft/lbs
flexplate to cranshaft bolts 70ft/lbs
flywheel to crankshaft bolts 55 ft/lbs
front insulator throught bolt/nut 70 ft lbs
front insulator to block bolts 70 ft/lbs
generator mounting bolts 41 ft/lbs
intake manifold bolts 9 ft/lbs
lifter guide holder 9 ft/lbs
oil pan bolts 9 ft/lbs
oil dipstick tube 9 ft/lbs
oil pan to drain plug 20 ft/lbs
oil pump attaching bolts 11 ft/lbs
oil pump tube & nut 21 ft/lbs
rear seal retainer attaching bolts 11 ft/lbs
rear insulator to braket 50 ft/lbs
rear insulator to brake 50 ft/lbs
rear insulator to crossmember 30 ft/lbs
rear insulator to tranny 50 ft/lbs
rear insulator braket bolts 50 ft/lbs
rocker Arm bolts 16 ft/lbs
spark plugs 13 ft/lbs
thermostat housing bolts 9 ft/lbs
throttle body bolts 9 ft/lbs
vibration damper bolt 130 ft/lbs
water pump to timming chain 21 ft/lbs
case cover bolts 21 ft/lbs

http://www.theturboforums.com/threads/350795-07-2010-Hemi-OEM-Torque-Chart-5-7L-Engine
 
http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php/349502-5-7L-6-4L-VVT-CAM-FAQs?highlight=Vvt+cam+FAQ


5.7L 6.4L VVT CAM FAQs
Hi All,

There has been a lot of phone calls and talk lately on all the forums about VVT Cams and what to expect and how they operate,
We worked with Comp Cams right from the beginning to get a true aftermarket solution to market for the modern Hemi and have tested many different profiles to make sure that we could deliver a package that could perform and be tuned, So we decided to post up a FAQ thread with the most common questions.

If you have any questions please reply to the thread.

Thank You.

The MMPG Team.

1. Why Can�t I get that old school Lope?

Old school lope is achieved by overlap. Overlap is the time the intake and exhaust are both open. This can be achieved but not without sacrifice. The larger cams such as the 274 Comp have an aggressive idle but are way too large for a 5.7 displacement engine. Low end throttle response and power will be sacrificed. The smaller cams can get a bit more aggressive idle if lobe separation is tightened to 112 from 114 but will be much harder to tune and still may have some bad driving habits. The VVT style lobes are not a symmetrical design and have a delayed intake opening so they can be advanced in the engine but this reduces overlap.

2. Why do they only make power past 3k Rpms?

We are working on this with some custom lobes at this time but here is the problem. The 5.7 VVT engine as we know has a considerably good head and ports as large as the 6.1. Well with the large port as compared to the old 5.7 head it is hard to increase the low power numbers. Also the factory cams are so small that they inherently make allot of low end power. If we are able to maintain or slightly increase the power below 2800RPM with the larger cam we are doing good.

3. What or Why is the Limiter used for?
Cam phasers in factory engines are used for emissions and fuel economy. They sweep the small factory cam up to 35 degrees to achieve this. When using larger performance cam this must be limited to make sure we do not have piston to valve issues. Even the amount we limit to (about half 17 degree) is too much to move a cam for performance.

4. What can I do to make the most low end torque
The best way to achieve the low end torque is efficiency. I like the best exhaust (long tube header and HF cat) I can find and then make a custom cam to compliment it.

5. Why are some cams losing power in the lower RPMs but show gains in the higher
Refer back to #2. In addition people are choosing cams that are way too big for the 5.7 engines. We have been working on these Hemis since 2005 and although the head has changed (gotten better but larger) what makes people think they can run a 226 or a 222 intake lobe at .050 lift in a 5.7L engine is beyond me. Some of the best running older 5.7s have 214Spartan cams. Also if you look at the cam timing numbers on the larger cams they retard the cams (which hurts low end power) just to make them fit. As previously stated the VVT came profile is non symmetrical and the advertised or @50 number is a bit deceiving. To compare to a normal or more traditional cams you have to add a couple degrees duration.


6. What is the best package to do to get the most out of it. IE Converter, long tubes ect�.
It is all about budget and packaging. Ideally long tubes, 3400-3600 converter, 214 or a 218 @50 cam (intake lobe) with correct exh and install timing numbers.

As long as we plan ahead we can pick the right cam or other package parts. If you have to work in stages then you may make some sacrifices till you have time and money to get it all done.

7. Why not just use a 392 OEM Cam? Or your opinion on why not to?
A 392 cam is allot of cam for the money but it is still a factory cam. It is ground on a 121 LSA as opposed to a 114 LSA of a custom cam. It will have an even smoother idle and will give up more TQ below peak torque than a 114LSA cam. The cam install is also later than the custom cam also sacrificing that precious torque we need for these 4000lb cars. Another thing to consider is the install cost, valve spring upgrade, tuning etc. that remains the same no matter what cam you install so why not get the most out of it.
Chris 276-663-1555
Dave 276-666-1934
www.ModernMusclePerformance.com
 
Cevidicus said:
Thanks. I've been researching this engine for nearly 2 years now. Been down many dead end roads and faced many disappointments.

Im tickled that somebody finally came out with the phaser limiters.

But, may not matter in my circumstances.

It's looking more and more like MegaSquirt will be the way to go for me. If not Ill lock out the phaser and run a carb with a FAST XIM ignition.

Tons of potential with these engines.
Click to expand...

Running a carb and fast is outta the ? I got 2 units from them and neither worked a month of diagnostic over the phone still they had no answers
If someone wants to run carb on 09 later engines u must change tone ring to use msd system.
Problem is that no one offers a 32 tooth 3 bolt tone wheel. I am so frustrated that I am getting one made and hope to be testing it buy jan 1
 
That's rather discouraging. I was assured by FAST and fastmanefi that all that was required was a dipswitch adjustment to work on an 09+ 5.7. I even saw a document that showed the settings.

I hope you get it all sorted out. Please keep us posted and update this thread with what you have had to do.
 
As far as I know, the Holley HP and Dominator have the capability of running the 09+ motors. They will not control the vct (you have to lock it out) but the settings have already been figured out for the different tone ring. I'm going to order one tomorrow.
 
You can make a VVT engine run for sure, but not with VVT activation without an OEM ECU.
 
Monte Smith over on Moparts assures me that Holley is working on vvt with the hp and dominator systems. But he doesn't know when they will have it figured out. I also saw something to that effect on the Holley site as well. Sure you could go with modern muscle or Hotwire to make use of vvt but the Holley dominator is just a better value to a guy like me who plans on going turbo in the future. A stock ecu just can't compare in capabilities and features. I'm in no hurry. Ill just wait on Holley.

Hopefully FAST figures out what the deal is on their XIM problems. Otherwise it's a real pain in the *** to run the MSD.

What gets me is why nobody has stepped up yet with a heavy duty timing set for the vvt engines that just does away with the phaser all together and locks the cam timing in. I'd say there is a real demand for such a product. All us vvt guys are stuck with is the stock chains that are quite dainty looking. Even the recall replacements look weak.

I'd like to see someone get these engines sorted out. It would help if the aftermarket would get with it. Chrysler has already been making the vvt as long as it made the earlier models. And it doesn't look like its going away anytime soon. Pretty soon these will be everywhere in the wrecking yards and the non vvt's will dry up. We'll get there. In time.
 
Yeah, I've seen that kit. But to me, in my opinion, it just doesn't seem kosher. And it's to use a 08 down style cam. I just don't know about the deal they want you slide over the snout of the cam. Plus I have seen zero reports or feedback. Not sure if anyone has even tried it or if you have to use it with their hemitronix system or what. Just not the way I would do it. If you look at MAST motor sports their vvt LS motors make 10-20 hp more and tq across the power band vs a locked in cam. I believe the mopar vvt has the same potential. It just has not been worked out yet.

But someone somewhere that may be a viable realistic option. I would like to see it in action.
 
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