318 LA roller block questions

[YY1]

"392" is somewhat of a magic number in Mopar.

The same people that sell 390 kits also sell 392 kits. IIRC the difference is a .040 over piston vs a .030

 

[Icetech]

K.. so few quick questions (I hate asking these but i would rather learn from others mistakes before i do it myself).. was going to go with PRW Stainless then this morning i do a quick search and see posts about the bushings basically wearing through on them. I have seen posts of galling on ductile iron rockers (otherwise i would get the mancini set) And i just don't trust aluminum long term on a driver. Soo.. without spending a crazy amount of money what are the options? I tend to overthink stuff which leads to stress which is what i seem to live on at this point
Second.. Since i plan to use OEM magnum lifters couldn't i do pushrod+shaft oiling or would that drop pressure and flood the top end? (this was just a thought)

And third thing... Is there an advantage to 1.6 ratio over 1.5 other than a little more lift? I don't get why people go 1.6 when doing a build if you are just going to order a cam anyway, why not get the cam with the lift you want to start with? This is just more of a curiosity that i might be missing something with 1.6.

I see some guys sending out rockers to get redone at $300+ a set, at which point you are spending HS type money..

P.S. Sorry bout the questions but i have never used aftermarket rockers on a mopar.. last one i did was a ford which was just.. buy whatever and bolt on and they worked well forever it seemed.

Also.. since someone will ask, if i did the math correctly my spring pressure at max lift should be 305#

Looking at the mancini aluminums $579 for HS actually doesn't sound bad and i wont be putting a ton of miles on.. might be my choice. My brain sucks

 

[George Jets]

I see your 318 has the 3 spider bosses and the taller lifter bores for the roller cam.

Good deal now all you need to find is a long snout roller cam (stock 360 roller cam is an option too, with a little more lift and duration than stock if the aftermarket supply is hard to acquire) the spider and dog bones.

Here is what the mopar dog bones and lifters look like.

Oh yeah, and the shorter stock pushrods for the roller cam, as they are shorter than what you have now.

 

[Icetech]

I see your 318 has the 3 spider bosses and the taller lifter bores for the roller cam.

Good deal now all you need to find is a long snout roller cam (stock 360 roller cam is an option too, with a little more lift and duration than stock if the aftermarket supply is hard to acquire) the spider and dog bones.

Here is what the mopar dog bones and lifters look like.

View attachment 1716036973


Oh yeah, and the shorter stock pushrods for the roller cam, as they are shorter than what you have now.

Yeah, looking for a spider and dogbones now... being an LA with spider bosses/magnum roller lifter bores, i should be able to use pretty much any LA roller cam shouldn't i? The motor already has the LA timing cover/mechanical fuel pump..

P.S. for cam i was looking at this.. for this year i just want a nice driver but would still like a good runner, Mainly why i am wanting good heads and such which can be used on a bigger build. I'm still using a highway gear and stock converter for this year also.. don't want to find a pig and pay for new axles just yet
Lunati cam choice..

 

[rumblefish360]

Hadn't read that anywhere.. will be sure to give it a better look now when i pull the heads.

Trust the machinist……

62 belvedere with a Poly it was 3050# so i figure with a alum headed LA i should stay under 3000..

Excellent!
Aluminum heads, intake, headers, it keeps adding up.
Roughly…. 50 lbs for the heads, 25 for the intake, 5-10 for the header exhaust manifolds but this is a catch 22 since the exhaust piping is double but the power increase is a great off set most of the time. Aftermarket aluminum wheels etc…. Keep more weight off. It’ll be good.

K.. so few quick questions (I hate asking these but i would rather learn from others mistakes before i do it myself)..

Smart man! No sense falling in the same traps and pits.

was going to go with PRW Stainless then this morning i do a quick search and see posts about the bushings basically wearing through on them. I have seen posts of galling on ductile iron rockers (otherwise i would get the mancini set) And i just don't trust aluminum long term on a driver. Soo.. without spending a crazy amount of money what are the options? I tend to overthink stuff which leads to stress which is what i seem to live on at this point

I get that overthinking thing. The best for longevity would be Ductile iron. Aluminum has a long life. Galling is a lack of oil. Galling happens with any rocker (or other part) that doesn’t get enough oil.

Second.. Since i plan to use OEM magnum lifters couldn't i do pushrod+shaft oiling or would that drop pressure and flood the top end? (this was just a thought)

I haven’t had an issue with the duel oiling myself but some have. The thing here is, when you’re oiling an engine, the oil that is protecting the moving parts from each other is a controlled bleeding point. If you’re going to build a relatively powerful engine (this is an opinion point of where that power level is, but let’s just say, “Not your average Hop Up.” RPM is a factor here.)
The engine is going to need a certain amount of pressure to keep oil thickness between parts in order for the parts not to rub on each other.

I have had no issue with a standard oil pump while turning 6500 rpm. This was also done with the dual, oil shaft and pushrod oiling methods working at the same time. It’s also not a sustained rpm but just a short visit and not often repeated.

And third thing... Is there an advantage to 1.6 ratio over 1.5 other than a little more lift?

Yes and no. Making a move to a 1.6 from a 1.5 often leads to increased performance. Sometimes, it doesn’t. If the ratio increase doesn’t lead to more performance, consider your cam right for the job and go back to the 1.5 rocker.

The thing with increasing the rocker no one ever really considers much even though it’s widely mentioned is the increased duration. Often you’ll hear, “OH! That’s a free 2*’s more at .050!”

Well my friend, believe it or not, not everything that is free is good. The extra lift is almost always useable even when the head stalls at the new lift. But it’s more of the cams timing events that are ever so slightly altered that can back fire.

And that’s why, every once in a while if you ears are open, you’ll hear someone say, “I added a ratio to the rocker and I went slower/there was no change.” Sometimes an extra ratio up on one side works well. Like a 1.6 on the intake and an1.5 on the exhaust.

I don't get why people go 1.6 when doing a build if you are just going to order a cam anyway, why not get the cam with the lift you want to start with? This is just more of a curiosity that i might be missing something with 1.6.

Generally speaking you are correct BUT 99.5% of the hot rodders, enthusiasts and most engine shops do not know what the best cam is. The last .5% do. While most really smart people that cam pick the right cam, won’t because there customer has an idea of what they want even though it isn’t the best for what there doing.

Cam company recommendations can be horrible or even worse than a new guy trying to figure this out. The solution would cost more money than anyone is willing to spend paying the man who actually knows.

I see some guys sending out rockers to get redone at $300+ a set, at which point you are spending HS type money..

There’s better than HS but that’s even more money.
Normally when people send their rockers out it is to correct OE or very old HP/race units. This is worth the expense.

P.S. Sorry bout the questions but i have never used aftermarket rockers on a mopar.. last one i did was a ford which was just.. buy whatever and bolt on and they worked well forever it seemed.

MoPars can be tricky. Let’s just say you can’t frisbee throw parts on and expect greatness much less properly working items. One of the things about a MoPar (and other) shaft rocker systems is proper placement of the rocker. All rockers are not created equal for perfect operation.

Also.. since someone will ask, if i did the math correctly my spring pressure at max lift should be 305#

Looking at the mancini aluminums $579 for HS actually doesn't sound bad and i wont be putting a ton of miles on.. might be my choice. My brain sucks

Find and ask a pro shop that actually knows MoPars.
Ask a racer what worked best with the least problems and modifications.

Yeah, looking for a spider and dogbones now... being an LA with spider bosses/magnum roller lifter bores, i should be able to use pretty much any LA roller cam shouldn't i? The motor already has the LA timing cover/mechanical fuel pump..

Correct. An LA engine that is roller cam equipped can use any LA roller cam (long snout) with roller lifters (OEM or not) though the OEM lifters will require the dog bones and spider. I just took apart of roller V6. I have 6 cylinders worth of dog bones. Would you like them?

P.S. for cam i was looking at this.. for this year i just want a nice driver but would still like a good runner, Mainly why i am wanting good heads and such which can be used on a bigger build. I'm still using a highway gear and stock converter for this year also.. don't want to find a pig and pay for new axles just yet
Lunati cam choice..

Give me a minute to look at the cam…

 

[rumblefish360]

I don’t like the cam but it will provide a smooth idle and be a minor upgrade in performance. It’ll work with a stock converter be OK at best with Hwy gears. Tire size has a roll in this. What tire size is being used?

What are the intended “Final specs” of the engine.
Let’s start with CID & cylinder head.

 

[Icetech]

Trust the machinist……

Excellent!
Aluminum heads, intake, headers, it keeps adding up.
Roughly…. 50 lbs for the heads, 25 for the intake, 5-10 for the header exhaust manifolds but this is a catch 22 since the exhaust piping is double but the power increase is a great off set most of the time. Aftermarket aluminum wheels etc…. Keep more weight off. It’ll be good.

Smart man! No sense falling in the same traps and pits.

I get that overthinking thing. The best for longevity would be Ductile iron. Aluminum has a long life. Galling is a lack of oil. Galling happens with any rocker (or other part) that doesn’t get enough oil.

I haven’t had an issue with the duel oiling myself but some have. The thing here is, when you’re oiling an engine, the oil that is protecting the moving parts from each other is a controlled bleeding point. If you’re going to build a relatively powerful engine (this is an opinion point of where that power level is, but let’s just say, “Not your average Hop Up.” RPM is a factor here.)
The engine is going to need a certain amount of pressure to keep oil thickness between parts in order for the parts not to rub on each other.

I have had no issue with a standard oil pump while turning 6500 rpm. This was also done with the dual, oil shaft and pushrod oiling methods working at the same time. It’s also not a sustained rpm but just a short visit and not often repeated.

Yes and no. Making a move to a 1.6 from a 1.5 often leads to increased performance. Sometimes, it doesn’t. If the ratio increase doesn’t lead to more performance, consider your cam right for the job and go back to the 1.5 rocker.

The thing with increasing the rocker no one ever really considers much even though it’s widely mentioned is the increased duration. Often you’ll hear, “OH! That’s a free 2*’s more at .050!”

Well my friend, believe it or not, not everything that is free is good. The extra lift is almost always useable even when the head stalls at the new lift. But it’s more of the cams timing events that are ever so slightly altered that can back fire.

And that’s why, every once in a while if you ears are open, you’ll hear someone say, “I added a ratio to the rocker and I went slower/there was no change.” Sometimes an extra ratio up on one side works well. Like a 1.6 on the intake and an1.5 on the exhaust.

Generally speaking you are correct BUT 99.5% of the hot rodders, enthusiasts and most engine shops do not know what the best cam is. The last .5% do. While most really smart people that cam pick the right cam, won’t because there customer has an idea of what they want even though it isn’t the best for what there doing.

Cam company recommendations can be horrible or even worse than a new guy trying to figure this out. The solution would cost more money than anyone is willing to spend paying the man who actually knows.

There’s better than HS but that’s even more money.
Normally when people send their rockers out it is to correct OE or very old HP/race units. This is worth the expense.


MoPars can be tricky. Let’s just say you can’t frisbee throw parts on and expect greatness much less properly working items. One of the things about a MoPar (and other) shaft rocker systems is proper placement of the rocker. All rockers are not created equal for perfect operation.

Find and ask a pro shop that actually knows MoPars.
Ask a racer what worked best with the least problems and modifications.

Correct. An LA engine that is roller cam equipped can use any LA roller cam (long snout) with roller lifters (OEM or not) though the OEM lifters will require the dog bones and spider. I just took apart of roller V6. I have 6 cylinders worth of dog bones. Would you like them?

Give me a minute to look at the cam…

Wow Rumble.. thank you for taking the time to reply and damn good answers I will be 100% honest about this years plan.. just a stock bottom end but next year probably a 390, so.. i plan to order TFS heads now, rpm intake and a mild cam to have a fun driver for the year. Also spreading the cost out some and wanting to pay for the big parts once and not twice I will rarely go over 5500rpm (when engine spin high i just see dollars burning).. so no need for a massive cam with long duration. Not worried about a nasty idle and all that.. rather have a good choice for the application and not the sound.

P.S. just reading about cams and looking at them can become an obsession honestly...

 

[Icetech]

I don’t like the cam but it will provide a smooth idle and be a minor upgrade in performance. It’ll work with a stock converter be OK at best with Hwy gears. Tire size has a roll in this. What tire size is being used?

What are the intended “Final specs” of the engine.
Let’s start with CID & cylinder head.

oops.. replied while you were replying.. just 318 for now, 390 next year. as i said in the first reply. I haven't decided on tires yet. And i will be upgrading the rear end if i find a deal on a pig.. guys wanting 800+ for a rebuilding center section just burns my ***.. This is the first car i have done in 20 years and back then it seemed like parts were every where for next to nothing Eventually probably just 3.55's though. i have run 3.91's and 4.56's in the past and it just gets old after awhile on the street

 

[rumblefish360]

Wow Rumble.. thank you for taking the time to reply and damn good answers I will be 100% honest about this years plan.. just a stock bottom end but next year probably a 390, so.. i plan to order TFS heads now, rpm intake and a mild cam to have a fun driver for the year. Also spreading the cost out some and wanting to pay for the big parts once and not twice I will rarely go over 5500rpm (when engine spin high i just see dollars burning).. so no need for a massive cam with long duration. Not worried about a nasty idle and all that.. rather have a good choice for the application and not the sound.

P.S. just reading about cams and looking at them can become an obsession honestly...

Your welcome. I read heavily on camshafts (obsessive is a good description for myself as well) from many different sources. The long departed and the currently active all have interesting thoughts on camshafts. Take in as much as possible.

Never worry about what the cam idle is like. The narrower the centerline and the larger the over lap leads to that nasty racer idle but in truth, it’s dishing out A LOT MORE TORQUE than that smooth idling cam is.

In the end, what ever makes you happy. But I’d hate to see you use a cam that could throw away an easy 40 ft. lbs. on the low end just for the sake of a smooth idle.

 

[Icetech]

Your welcome. I read heavily on camshafts (obsessive is a good description for myself as well) from many different sources. The long departed and the currently active all have interesting thoughts on camshafts. Take in as much as possible.

Never worry about what the cam idle is like. The narrower the centerline and the larger the over lap leads to that nasty racer idle but in truth, it’s dishing out A LOT MORE TORQUE than that smooth idling cam is.

In the end, what ever makes you happy. But I’d hate to see you use a cam that could throw away an easy 40 ft. lbs. on the low end just for the sake of a smooth idle.

Thanks, and yeah.. torque and midrange is what i want for now.. If you have thoughts on a specific cam please let me know thanks for all the information. I'm also not married to having a roller.. but i mean... if you can go roller easy why not? Mainly.. i keep seeing horror stories in forums and from youtubers about wiping cams constantly in the last few years.. rather just not worry bout any of that.

P.S. I see hughes has spider and dogbones pretty cheap.. gonna look for a stock set+ lifters as there is no rush.. no one will have heads for a few more months and i will need a few months to get the car to the point of getting the engine ready anyway.

 

[rumblefish360]

oops.. replied while you were replying.. just 318 for now, 390 next year. as i said in the first reply. I haven't decided on tires yet. And i will be upgrading the rear end if i find a deal on a pig.. guys wanting 800+ for a rebuilding center section just burns my ***.. This is the first car i have done in 20 years and back then it seemed like parts were every where for next to nothing Eventually probably just 3.55's though. i have run 3.91's and 4.56's in the past and it just gets old after awhile on the street

The new prices are due to the global times that is loaded with BS.
Doctor Diff gets approximately $1500 for a new, that’s everything new, housing included 8-3/4 third member.

It is what it is and if you have been out of the game for 20 years since your last rebuild, you’re gonna hate the new pricing. Get over it quick! Otherwise you might start thinking twice and/or change your plans. That could lead to very unhappy results. Don’t settle, stay the course and just accept that this is the way it is now. That’s all there is to it. You can never go back.

The days when I would get cars for the asking or pay $50-$100 are gone gone gone and will never return.

 

[Icetech]

The new prices are due to the global times that is loaded with BS.
Doctor Diff gets approximately $1500 for a new, that’s everything new, housing included 8-3/4 third member.

It is what it is and if you have been out of the game for 20 years since your last rebuild, you’re gonna hate the new pricing. Get over it quick! Otherwise you might start thinking twice and/or change your plans. That could lead to very unhappy results. Don’t settle, stay the course and just accept that this is the way it is now. That’s all there is to it. You can never go back.

The days when I would get cars for the asking or pay $50-$100 are gone gone gone and will never return.

I accept the new pricing.. doens't mean i won't spend a bit of time bitching bout it while i get used to it

 

[rumblefish360]

Thanks, and yeah.. torque and midrange is what i want for now.. If you have thoughts on a specific cam please let me know thanks for all the information. I'm also not married to having a roller.. but i mean... if you can go roller easy why not? Mainly.. i keep seeing horror stories in forums and from youtubers about wiping cams constantly in the last few years.. rather just not worry bout any of that.

P.S. I see hughes has spider and dogbones pretty cheap.. gonna look for a stock set+ lifters as there is no rush.. no one will have heads for a few more months and i will need a few months to get the car to the point of getting the engine ready anyway.

I can make a cam recommendation but I need a bunch of information that is not given or in stone. Am I looking at a cam for a 318 or a 390 or both.

Bad news, you really can’t have your cake and eat it with a camshaft for two different engines.

I gotta run and start the day.

Give me and us all the details of the engine & car being used now or the one for the future.

 

[Icetech]

I can make a cam recommendation but I need a bunch of information that is not given or in stone. Am I looking at a cam for a 318 or a 390 or both.

Bad news, you really can’t have your cake and eat it with a camshaft for two different engines.

I gotta run and start the day.

Give me and us all the details of the engine & car being used now or the one for the future.

Already knew i would need 2 cams.. massive difference in 318>390.. This year will just be stock bottom end 318 with heads/intake/headers, 3000# car with stock converter and for now and 2.76s (gonna be granny cruisin for a bit) That's why the very mild cam... reason to go big and not have any bottom end when it's not usable. Next year will be a 390 and cam change at that time.
thanks for all the help.. have a good day!

Car hasn't moved in 45 years, i want to use this year to just get everything sorted and working and still enjoy it a bit though.

 

[Jadaharabi]

Yeah.. one thing i wanted was a mechanical pump which luckily this motor has.. i just need to find a spider and get some lifters and i assume any LA roller cam will work (for now probably a mild voodoo)
I'm just happy the motor is pretty clean inside, i ran a scope in the bores and mild carbon on the pistons and crosshatches on the cylinders..
View attachment 1716036923
Compared to my poly... Now this is a dirty motor


View attachment 1716036924

Build the poly.
Where are you located at?

 

[toolmanmike]

Yeah.. one thing i wanted was a mechanical pump which luckily this motor has.. i just need to find a spider and get some lifters and i assume any LA roller cam will work (for now probably a mild voodoo)
I'm just happy the motor is pretty clean inside, i ran a scope in the bores and mild carbon on the pistons and crosshatches on the cylinders..
View attachment 1716036923
Compared to my poly... Now this is a dirty motor


View attachment 1716036924

That Poly had Pennzoil ran in it.

 

[Icetech]

Build the poly.
Where are you located at?

bout 10 miles north of Detroit...

I absolutely LOVE polys... i got this car from the original owner who parked it in 1978 and it sat in a garage ever since (no mice in it... amazing) but for some reason he pulled the plugs, i scoped the cyls and just surface rust.. was almost gonna do a quick re-ring/bearing and run it til i pulled the intake and that sludge from sitting so long is now like cement. Soo.. i could put a ton of money into building a motor you can barely get gaskets for or have fun with something i can modify a lot easier. not a hard choice I think off the poly i will end up using the oil pan and that's bout it.

 

[Icetech]

That Poly had Pennzoil ran in it.

Yeah.. i wish he had taken slightly better care of it.. i bought it from the original owner who i think was 88 now, super nice guy told me all the history and where he was when it hit 100k miles and such.. had reciepts from oil changes even but i think it had over heating problems (soldering on the radiator that i saw) and cooked the oil.. the SOS (DMV) was shocked when i brought in the 1962 title to transfer Also have the original receipt from a hardware store/dodge dealer..

P.S. i WAY overpayed i just love old b-bodies... It was this or a '69 barracuda from cali with a locked 273... i WISH i had bought that car now.. but it is what it is, the 62's have great styling.. i would have got the 69 if it weren't a notch back

 

[Brooks James]

Hello guys.. I'm technically a B-body owner but this forum is amazing so here i am Just a quick question or 2

I just picked up a 318 of FB (have never run a small block before though it would be fun to play with) What i ended up with was a '85 LA with the spider mounts in the valley but a flat tappet cam in it. It was a truck motor, i did some research and couldn't find much other than this is possible to find now and then.

I was mainly wondering if there is any reason to avoid using this before i start dumping money into parts? Plan is to get heads/cam/intake setup for this year to get the car working and sorted (hasn't moved since 1978, going through every bolt) Then hopefully a 390 next year.
P.S. I don't plan on a massive cam as it will be a street car to have fun in and beat on, not heading to the strip.. Any issues using factory roller lifters upto around .525? thanks guys.

On my stock Magnum (stock head gaskets )Which I installed a cam in, I have a .512 lift cam hyd lifter roller, which has about 20 thousandths clearance between the retainer and valve guide.
2 choices, cut the guide down or get Hughes retainers which will allow more lift

 

[Icetech]

On my stock Magnum (stock head gaskets )Which I installed a cam in, I have a .512 lift cam hyd lifter roller, which has about 20 thousandths clearance between the retainer and valve guide.
2 choices, cut the guide down or get Hughes retainers which will allow more lift

Mine is a magnum type block with LA heads.. (weird thing that happened for a few years) different setup, replacing the heads anyway... just hoping to catch a sale at summit or somewhere else that has TFS stuff..

 

[rumblefish360]

Build the poly.
Where are you located at?

The cylinder head is the hardest part to get what you need out of the poly 318. A fella on the B body forum, FBBO, did some amazing work on the poly head so worth taking notes on and asking for his help.

The head design itself is very good and IMO, something that could have been worthy to look into for further performance. It’s a bummer that there were no performance Poly heads ever built. What amazing things could have been done in aluminum?

 

[Bakerlite]

Already knew i would need 2 cams.. massive difference in 318>390.. This year will just be stock bottom end 318 with heads/intake/headers, 3000# car with stock converter and for now and 2.76s (gonna be granny cruisin for a bit) That's why the very mild cam...

May as well, just go for a generic brown box Hydraulic flat tappet cam.

 

[Icetech]

May as well, just go for a generic brown box Hydraulic flat tappet cam.

I'm gonna end up roller eventually anyway.. and i swear everywhere i read it's people talking about wiped cams non stop.. or that new lifters are made of bubblegum... too much reading is bad for me

 

[rumblefish360]

I just had my first cam/lifter failure and I’ll say it was my mistake even though I e done crappier work and had the set up survive and live long life’s, it was disappointing to have this failure. But as far as I’m concerned, that’s the price of sloppy.

The replacement cam was a Comp Thumper and there’s no issue with it running the last month or two.

 

[Icetech]

BTW.. thanks for all the advice in this thread guys, you have all be more than helpful Going to start ordering parts today.. and one thing i haven't really thought bout was intake.. i was going to pick up a performer RPM unless someone has a reason not to? And the mancini HS rockers..