Wyrmrider
Well-Known Member
I do not know what cam that is but no vehicle need that much extra exhaust duration
Blower?
nitrus?
what is the seat timing at .006?
Blower?
nitrus?
what is the seat timing at .006?
318 Port match heads to Performer RPM Intake
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PRH
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That's funny my experience was different. The 360 heads had a bigger valve too as well as more port volume.
PRH
Well-Known Member
I’ve come to the conclusion that arguing about the merits(or lack thereof) of 302 heads is going to get put into the same category as arguing about brands/weight of motor oil, who makes the best cam, and what brand of sparks plugs to run.
You can argue back and forth about it all you want....... but no one is changing anyone else’s mind about any of it.
You can argue back and forth about it all you want....... but no one is changing anyone else’s mind about any of it.
MOPAROFFICIAL
Oogliboogli
Okay you keep coming with the same thing...
That's because you spent money on having them Ported heavily by who was it.. hughes?
Glad you like what you have. We all have different experiences when taking different paths. You heads won't support a stroker like a 360 head will. .. but what's that matter to you since you don't have one with those head on it.
AJ/FormS
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I think that's a bit of a stretch.
The specs on that cam are 213/[email protected]/109LSA in at 104
If I gross that up, by a typical acceleration ramp for Hughes, of 46*, I get an advertised of ~260/272. Don't worry about the accuracy of this. Just watch what happens as I go thru this exercise.
Ok so; in at 104* per the card, the Ica becomes 54*. Lets install this into a TRUE 7.8 Scr, 318 at sealevel. I get
Static compression ratio of 7.8:1.
Ica of 54*, elevation 0
Effective stroke is 2.78 inches.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 6.70:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 129.38 PSI.
V/P (Volume to Pressure Index) is 104
The Wallace Calculator predicts a cylinder pressure of just 129psi and a VP of really lousy 104.
I gotta tell you this is a catastrophic situation.
I processed the number 3 times to verify these numbers, the numbers are right.
Read about VP here; V/P Index Calculation
What does it mean? A box-stock Non-Magnum 318LA posts a VP of 115, see below
Static compression ratio of 7.8:1.
Ica of 48*/ sealevel
Effective stroke is 2.95 inches.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 6.94:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 135.60 PSI.
V/P (Volume to Pressure Index) is 115
As you can see; you are giving up 6psi and 11points of VP. 11 may not sound like much but in this case that represents almost 5% performance loss at the lower rpms, where you will be doing the vast amount of your driving, namely below 3000 rpm.
What that 318Whiplash cam wants is
Static compression ratio of 9.2:1.
Ica still 54*/@sealevel
Effective stroke is 2.83 inches.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 7.88:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 160.34 PSI.( to burn 91gas at WOT)
V/P (Volume to Pressure Index) is 131
131VP is 14% better than a stock low-compression 318LA
Now yur talking!
IDK; maybe you already have a pre 72 Hi-Compression 318, in which case you'd be right in sticking with less than 9.2 Scr
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The only money spent was on guides, valve job and the rocker shaft stands milled down to correct the rocker geometry. Everything else i have done myself so very little money in these heads. Not much different to what i have in my 587's
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C2ndLTpigeon
Mopar or no Car!
This is all new to me and to be honest Im not at all familiar how things are calculated. What I know is 72 and newer engines became low compression due to emissions coming around. After hearing this I looked into this cam that says its a simple drop in with increased benefits based on their claims noted below from there web page. Again this is a 318, if I really wanted power id go with a 360. Like I mentioned I want to see If this might give a little more response than stock and sound nice even if it does not make up for it with the power. Not looking for something to launch at green lights or take to a track. All my components seem to match up except the intake ports being bigger on the manifold than the head.
Here is the info from Hughes engines:
"Whiplash cams are designed for the very low compression Mopar O.E.M. engines such as all the 318's, 360, 400 and all 383 & 440's built after 1971.
The factory built these engines with a combination of low compression and cams that produced very low cylinder pressure and low power (see this tech article CLICK HERE). Normally, to increase the cylinder pressure in these engines you would have to disassemble the engine, buy new pistons & rings (at a minimum), rebore & hone, rebalance and reassemble. And then you would still need cam & lifters. The cost of this build-up could easily be $2,000.00 or more and take 2-3 weeks.
The unique design of the Whiplash cam will accomplish all of the same results for as little as $340.00 (cam, springs & lifters) and take about one Saturday afternoon to complete. The Whiplash cams are designed, like all of our "real" Mopar cams to take advantage of the .904" lifter diameter which increases the area-under-the-curve, for more breathing time. However, with low lifts (yes we consider .520" low lift) so that you do not need to remove the heads and machine the valve guides.
These Whiplash cams have become one of our top selling items and we have customer that want to put them in engines that are not low compression. The problem is that the cam will still raise the cylinder pressure and your engine may then require race gasoline or a mix of pump and race gas. As a general rule of thumb engine with a true measured compression ratio more than 8.9:1 with iron heads or 10:1 with aluminum heads should not expect to be able to run on just premium gas. And, whatever you do, DO NOT retard the timing to "make it work". That will "work" and also reduce your power & torque considerably. You'll be sorry!"
Thanks, enjoyed the read on your tech article "Cylinder Pressure = Horsepower" well explained.
AJ/FormS
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The simple answer is this
After the cam is in, and the heads are on; but before the intake goes on, do a compression test. Here's my opinion;If you have
120psi and less, this is a nightmare
125 to 130psi is really doggy
130 to 140 is still soft and needs both a hi-stall AND gears
140 to 150 is getting somewhere, a 2400staLL is barely adequate at the 150 side, and 2800 at least on the 140side and she'll still want 3.23s or better.
150 to 160 is where you want to be. She still burns 87 on the 150 side and might want 91@WOT on the 160 side. 160psi will allow a 2400 and 3.23s
165 is about the limit for iron heads, but I wouldn't go there with open chamber heads.
The Wallace calculator is predicting, see above,
130psi in a true 7.8 Smoggerteen, and
about 160psi in a true 9.2 First-gen hi-compression pre 73 318LA.
As you can see, that cam can get you into trouble in a heartbeat.
It can make reasonably generous low-rpm power at hi pressure, but when it gets stuck with 7.8Scr, it takes a lotta lotta rpm to wake up, and then it's all over.
For example 3500 with 3.23s is about 32 mph, and good luck making both tires spin, with the factory TC.
3500 with 2.76s is about 38mph, and no chance at all to spin the tires with the factory TC.
The power of that cam peaks at maybe 4500/4600, and then drops off fairly rapidly so you might shift at 4800. That will give you a powerband of 1300rpm or so, with that low pressure combo, if you end up having that. ..... but your 1-2 split in the 904/727 is .59, so it will drop you Rs from 4800 to 2800, and there you are, with the poor 318LA stuck trying to claw itself out of a hole that starts at (with 3.23s)44mph and begins to wake up at 55, peaks at around 70 and the shift comes at 75 mph. Good for a passing gear, but not much else.
The factory 318 cam was a 240/248/112. And in at 108 the Ica would be 48*, and the 8.0 nominal 318LA (more like 7.8 it's been said) made about 136psi with that. That's your measuring stick.
The Whiplash, in at 104*, has an Ica of 54* (estimated by me) and is predicted to make just 129psi
That is about a 5% powerloss at low rpm, and all the way up to 3000 to maybe 3500 with that combo. To compensate for that, you would need 5% more rear gear AND 5% more torque at take off, Which means a higher than factory stall, to compare apples to apples.
If your teener, before the cam made 210 ftlbs at 1800 stall, it might now need a 2000TC just to make the same take-off.
Whereas a compression ratio boost from 7.8 to 8.1 gets your 136psi back, and now she is with the Whiplash cam taking off just like it used to, and using the same gears. But is that what you want, just to be the same?
Ima thinking you didn't just spend a wad of cash to go slower to 32mph, and not go the same either. And 32mph assumes 3.23s!
What Hughes is saying, is that cam has 48* of overlap, like a factory 340cam(44*),So you get the 340sound;
but it is about one cam size smaller than a 340 cam at advertised: 260*(estimated by me) versus 268*, so it won't be as doggy as a 340 cam tends to make a stock 318 be.
What is not mentioned is that the 260 cam is about 260less 240=20 degrees, and 20/7 = 3 cam sizes bigger than a factory 318 cam
Typically one cam size drops your cylinder pressure about 3psi in this range so, with 3 sizes, I'd expect 9psi ; whereas the Wallace predicts only 6, which is due to the switch from 112LSA to 109. Good deal.
So the bottom line is,
With no other changes, the Whiplash will not turn your 318 into as lazy a dog as a 340 cam would, but it WILL be lazy all the same.
So then they tell you to change the stall and gears so you won't notice the doginess so much.
In other words, this cam will cost you a TC and gears in addition to the cam purchase. I'll guess close to or over $1000 additional costs, installed.
For a G-note, you could put the proper pistons in there, and maybe have enough left over for some decking, and end up smoking both tires (with a SG of course), commensurate with what the idle-sound is saying, assuming 3.23s and a 2000TC to start with.
But with 2.76s and a 1700, you's still have to wait a bit to find some power.
So ,IDK it all depends on where you are starting from. If you have to buy a a TC AND gears then just make sure they will work with the lazy pressure, after all is said and done.
After the cam is in, and the heads are on; but before the intake goes on, do a compression test. Here's my opinion;If you have
120psi and less, this is a nightmare
125 to 130psi is really doggy
130 to 140 is still soft and needs both a hi-stall AND gears
140 to 150 is getting somewhere, a 2400staLL is barely adequate at the 150 side, and 2800 at least on the 140side and she'll still want 3.23s or better.
150 to 160 is where you want to be. She still burns 87 on the 150 side and might want 91@WOT on the 160 side. 160psi will allow a 2400 and 3.23s
165 is about the limit for iron heads, but I wouldn't go there with open chamber heads.
The Wallace calculator is predicting, see above,
130psi in a true 7.8 Smoggerteen, and
about 160psi in a true 9.2 First-gen hi-compression pre 73 318LA.
As you can see, that cam can get you into trouble in a heartbeat.
It can make reasonably generous low-rpm power at hi pressure, but when it gets stuck with 7.8Scr, it takes a lotta lotta rpm to wake up, and then it's all over.
For example 3500 with 3.23s is about 32 mph, and good luck making both tires spin, with the factory TC.
3500 with 2.76s is about 38mph, and no chance at all to spin the tires with the factory TC.
The power of that cam peaks at maybe 4500/4600, and then drops off fairly rapidly so you might shift at 4800. That will give you a powerband of 1300rpm or so, with that low pressure combo, if you end up having that. ..... but your 1-2 split in the 904/727 is .59, so it will drop you Rs from 4800 to 2800, and there you are, with the poor 318LA stuck trying to claw itself out of a hole that starts at (with 3.23s)44mph and begins to wake up at 55, peaks at around 70 and the shift comes at 75 mph. Good for a passing gear, but not much else.
The factory 318 cam was a 240/248/112. And in at 108 the Ica would be 48*, and the 8.0 nominal 318LA (more like 7.8 it's been said) made about 136psi with that. That's your measuring stick.
The Whiplash, in at 104*, has an Ica of 54* (estimated by me) and is predicted to make just 129psi
That is about a 5% powerloss at low rpm, and all the way up to 3000 to maybe 3500 with that combo. To compensate for that, you would need 5% more rear gear AND 5% more torque at take off, Which means a higher than factory stall, to compare apples to apples.
If your teener, before the cam made 210 ftlbs at 1800 stall, it might now need a 2000TC just to make the same take-off.
Whereas a compression ratio boost from 7.8 to 8.1 gets your 136psi back, and now she is with the Whiplash cam taking off just like it used to, and using the same gears. But is that what you want, just to be the same?
Ima thinking you didn't just spend a wad of cash to go slower to 32mph, and not go the same either. And 32mph assumes 3.23s!
What Hughes is saying, is that cam has 48* of overlap, like a factory 340cam(44*),So you get the 340sound;
but it is about one cam size smaller than a 340 cam at advertised: 260*(estimated by me) versus 268*, so it won't be as doggy as a 340 cam tends to make a stock 318 be.
What is not mentioned is that the 260 cam is about 260less 240=20 degrees, and 20/7 = 3 cam sizes bigger than a factory 318 cam
Typically one cam size drops your cylinder pressure about 3psi in this range so, with 3 sizes, I'd expect 9psi ; whereas the Wallace predicts only 6, which is due to the switch from 112LSA to 109. Good deal.
So the bottom line is,
With no other changes, the Whiplash will not turn your 318 into as lazy a dog as a 340 cam would, but it WILL be lazy all the same.
So then they tell you to change the stall and gears so you won't notice the doginess so much.
In other words, this cam will cost you a TC and gears in addition to the cam purchase. I'll guess close to or over $1000 additional costs, installed.
For a G-note, you could put the proper pistons in there, and maybe have enough left over for some decking, and end up smoking both tires (with a SG of course), commensurate with what the idle-sound is saying, assuming 3.23s and a 2000TC to start with.
But with 2.76s and a 1700, you's still have to wait a bit to find some power.
So ,IDK it all depends on where you are starting from. If you have to buy a a TC AND gears then just make sure they will work with the lazy pressure, after all is said and done.
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That sounds pretty good. I have my 70 318 with the rated 9 to 1 compression and The 318 Whiplash cam. I also have a pair of Speedmaster heads which have closed chambers vs the stock open chambered heads. Of course they flow better than the stock 675 heads. That combo with a LD4B and a 650 AVS2 should work ok.
Wyrmrider
Well-Known Member
just ok
the Whiplash is the best of those kind of cams, Comps thumper second, everyone else SOL
but the long exhaust on the good Whiplash intake lobe
WTF
too much overlap and your expansion ration goes all to hell
Why?
AJ knows
the Whiplash is the best of those kind of cams, Comps thumper second, everyone else SOL
but the long exhaust on the good Whiplash intake lobe
WTF
too much overlap and your expansion ration goes all to hell
Why?
AJ knows
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I have to disagree. I'm currently running 185+ at the moment on pump gas and plan to go higher. I'd like to get it up to around 200 ultimately.
Not a bad cam but I'm sure there are better grinds.
C2ndLTpigeon
Mopar or no Car!
Well I don't think there is any going back with parts that have been assembled. Looks like I will have to make what I have work.
Gears will be a 8 1/4 with 3.55 gears.
AJ/FormS
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With open-chamber iron heads and full timing, with 3.55s and 3600 pounds?
You and YellowRose then, look to be the only ones here able to make that work. Kudus to you
AJ/FormS
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Hyup, that design has only one purpose, and I suppose if that's what you want,..... it delivers. But the part about it being for a low compression engine, needs to be clarified. There is no way I would run it in a smogger-teen.
But in zero-deck, closed chamber, tight-Q design at, 9.2Scr, with headers; I think it could be a lotta fun. It might burn87 and it still has 110* of power extraction, so maybe it wouldn't be that horrible on fuel-consumption, with the 9.2Scr. I mean I got over 30mpgs out of 110* exhaust duration and 53* overlap, so I know it could be possible, with 110 and 48* overlap.
Hang on OP, I had double overdrive to do that, lol. It will never happen with 3.55s and an automatic,lol.
Now, if you put that cam into a near zero-deck 360, with closed chamber aluminum heads, that combo will fall together at near 10.2 Scr, and make ~185psi cranking cylinder pressure, and that could make a great combo! At 179VP it could be an awesome tow-truck engine. I might stick that into an FMJ car with 2.45s, lol, and still smoke the tires..
But for me,a 213/226/109cam is not gonna stay in there for long, at least not with a 3-gear automatic. On second thought, that 179VP sounds killer.........
AJ/FormS
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Here's what Hughes has to say;
Whiplash Flat tappet hydraulic small block "LA" camshaft.
Hughes "real" Chrysler cam
WARNING: Our Whiplash cam is designed for basically stock, low compression engines. This cam will run on pump gas in a 318 with 8.6:1 or less compression and iron heads. If your compression is higher than this you may need to use a higher octane race fuel. Your vacuum should be in the 9"-11" range using this cam.
(Figures calculated using stock stroke & compression at 750' altitude.)
Basic guidelines (These are not absolutes, just guidelines to help you get close on a cam choice)
Use: Street and some strip
Idle: Like it wants to bite your head off! Very aggressive
Vacuum: Low
Converter: Stock or a mild stall
Rear gear: Stock or up to 3.55
Benefits: Tons of low end torque and a super aggressive idle that scares Mustangs, Camaros and rice burners from even thinking about messing with you.
The OEM Distributors have terrible advance curves. Many go as far as 50+° advance which will cause major damage and have very poor acceleration. When you order a Whiplash cam ask for the special whiplash advance curve specs or we can supply you with a new Pertronix distributor (P/N PRT 7141700) and we will custom curve it for no extra charge.
Lets talk about this;
First;(Figures calculated using stock stroke & compression at 750' altitude.).
You are not at 750 ft, but Wiki says; in places below sealevel! That's 5psi right there.
Second; " Like it wants to bite your head off!
"Come on!, it has just 48* of overlap, just 4* more than a 340. Nobody ever said that about a 340. If you want "bite your head off, you'll need a 484cam or more, and 11/1 compression. So this is strike one against the advertising hype.
Third;
"Many go as far as 50+° advance which will cause major damage and have very poor acceleration". I have never seen even ONE ,50* PLUS in centrifugal timing, never ever. Yur lucky to get 30* plus 5 idle =35*. So where is the "many"
So strike two
Fourth;
Vacuum: Low/ Your vacuum should be in the 9"-11" range using this cam. This is true, and is partly why you need a looser than stock, TC. Yet they say; "Converter: Stock or a mild stall. Strike three.
Fifth/Sixth
pump gas in a 318 with 8.6:1 or less compression and iron heads. If your compression is higher than this you may need to use a higher octane race fuel
Here they are protecting their butts. There never was an 8.6Scr 318 from the factory, so this is like saying ice-is cold. Empty words and useless information. to get to 8.6, you will have to get your total chamber volume down to ~86cc. With pistons down at .057, that's 11.2cc; add 8.6 for the gasket,add 1cc for the crevice volume, and you are up to 20.8; leaving 65.2 for the heads. So your factory open chambers heads are what? about 72cc and that makes your total chamber volume ~92.8 and the Scr comes to 8.0 on a good day, cuz in some in 318s the pistons are down even further than .057.
Bottom line is the only way to get to 8.6 is spend the money to get there. To their credit, they do say 8.6 or less.
But as I have previously shown; with an estimated Ica of 54*, even at 8.6Scr,your pressure will still be in the basement;
Static compression ratio of 8.6:1.
Ica of 54*, sealevel
Effective stroke is 2.78 inches.
Your dynamic compression ratio is 7.37:1 .
Your dynamic cranking pressure is 146.84 PSI.
V/P (Volume to Pressure Index) is 118
So; two strikes on this point.
Seventh;
Converter: Stock or a mild stall
Rear gear: Stock or up to 3.55
You gotta take these two together.
Lets say the factory stall is 1700 and
the factory gears were 2.76s , and
say the factory teener makes 190 ftlbs at 1700.
So to the road with 27" tires this comes to;
190 x 1.8 in the TC, x2.45Trans x2.76 rear =2310 ftlbs at zero mph. A couple to a few carlengths out, the TC ratio has fallen to say 1.4, and the Rs have climbed to 2000, so the crank ftlbs might be 195; so the to the road ftlbs is looking like 195 x1.4x2.45x2.76=1856..
So what we have here is a few feet of rubber and not enough power to sustain the tirespin. This is exactly how the smoggerteen performs. Am I wrong?
Now, lets install that Whiplash and see what happens.
Right away we see a reduction in VP from 115 to 104 IIRC, lemmee go check; Hyup. that is down to 90.4% so lets say your torque is now 172ftlbs, so 172x1.4x2.45x2.76= 1610 to the road...... compared to 1856 with the stocker. You see what happened here? The bottom end took a dump, this new combo cannot even chirp the tires never mind spin them.
Ok so lets install your 3.55s. Now you numbers are;
172x1.8x2.45x3.55=2900 at zero mph, diminishing to say 2100 a couple to a few car lengths out. Again, no sustain. Oh wait, lets see if the 4bbl can help. Nope looks like not enough rpm is generated to make a difference. How about the headers? Nope, not enough rpm.
So what are you gonna do?
Hey I know, lets install a 2800TC.
So, say at 2800 your torque has climbed to 210 and lets add 20 more for the secondaries and headers which just came on line; so call it 230crank ftlbs. Your new numbers are
230 x1.8x2.45x3.55=3600 plenty of to-the-road torque,to smoke the tires and diminishing to say 2800 a couple to a few lengths out, that is plenty to sustain the spin. So now you can work the throttle, to spin about all the way thru first gear,at least.
And that is why you need a TC even with the 3.55s.
But Hughes says "stock to mild TC".
Yeah right..................
With 3.55s and 27" tires 65=2870rpm@zero-slip, so get you a 2800TC minimum.
With your predicted cylinder pressure, yur gonna need it.
Just trying to help.
Many of us at some point in our lives have slipped a 340 cam into a 318LA. This worked not too bad in the early 318s that had an advertised Scr of 9.0 or more.
But when I slid it into a smoggerteen, a '73, it was a total disaster. And 3.55s did nothing for it off the line. It took the 2800 to wake it up. And performance didn't start until the Rs were well past 3500. In the end it took 3.91s to wake it up for me.
This Whiplash is like a 340 cam, but traps a wee bit more pressure.
Happy HotRodding
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This 318 Whiplash sounds a little angry. The guy wanted to get more serious and built a 360 for it after a couple years. His 360 runs 12.40's @ 108. The "poser cams" sound great at idle and just above when idling around the pits or the car show but at 2500 rpm they sound like Grandma's 318. LOL
C2ndLTpigeon
Mopar or no Car!
Well I'll find out. like I said if it doesn't work like I want it to, Ill get a 360 or build the 400 I have. Not looking for tons of HP but something that sounds good and is fun to work on. There seems to be to much opposing opinions on the Whiplash cams, a good amount of people like them and other people mention better ones out there. All depends what someone wants out of a car, I dont see what the problem is with someone buying a cam because the way it sounds, its their car so let them. Ill find out from trial and error. Other than the cam shaft all the other components can easily be inter changed on a 360 so most im out is a camshaft kit, no biggie to me.
AJ/FormS
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Yeah I've seen that video a few times.
There must be something wrong with my tunes...... not even my 292/292/108 sounded like that, at similar rpm.
My smallest cam was a Hughes HE2430AL with 223/230/110 @.050; 270/276 advertised, compared to 213/226 on the SMC1326AL Whiplash; and my Hughes had as good as zero lope. My current 276/286/110 has a bit of lope, but I got to retard the timing and lower the rpm to 600 to hear it, and it still don't idle like that. Maybe it just gets lost in my full-length dual 3" pipes and 3-pass Dynomaxers,IDK,lol. Don't care either, in fact the less lope the better, so I can sneak up on guys....
But I gotta admit, that Duster sounds pretty good, and 108 makes a nice streeter..
Yep. A great lope to it.
Wyrmrider
Well-Known Member
If it's together just post up your compression
what cam hysteriic?
YR pulls off high compression too
I think YR has a distributor machine- the kind all the gas stations used to have
in a low compression 318 with stock gears and converter
some like the 340 cam or 340 cam advanced 4 degrees
some like the 268 comp or 268 comp advanced another 4 degrees
some don't know **** from shinola
and then they add 360 heads
AJ nails the logic
what cam hysteriic?
YR pulls off high compression too
I think YR has a distributor machine- the kind all the gas stations used to have
in a low compression 318 with stock gears and converter
some like the 340 cam or 340 cam advanced 4 degrees
some like the 268 comp or 268 comp advanced another 4 degrees
some don't know **** from shinola
and then they add 360 heads
AJ nails the logic
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Crower 271 HDP @ 0.050 its 222/234 112
Wyrmrider
Well-Known Member
good cam hysteric
we used it 440s 10:1
less or 383 the 267hdp
lift is not pushing limits
but fat where it needs to be
what did you say your cmpression was?
we used it 440s 10:1
less or 383 the 267hdp
lift is not pushing limits
but fat where it needs to be
what did you say your cmpression was?
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