340 camshaft question, yea another one.

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My timing is set at 16* initial, mechanical is 18* at 3400 and the vac can is 14* at 14 inches. I have it connected to manifold vacuum so it had 21* total at idle.
I have been looking at the stock 340 cam for my car, I'd be fine with that.

I missed something here; Earlier you said the idle vacuum was 15inches at 850rpm.
Well if the Vcan is able to pull in 14* at 14inches, AND the initial is 16*, then, with the Vcan hooked to manifold vacuum,shouldn't the engine be idling on 16*initial plus 14*Vcan at 850 =30 degrees?
What did I miss?
the reason I ask for clarification is cuz;
If the Vcan is non-linear (and they mostly are), and the vacuum drops to say 10 when you put it into gear, then perhaps the can would lose it all, and the timing would revert to the 16 initial. And it would do it almost instantly. Dropping from 30* to 16* would sure kill the idle.

34* at 3400 works for me with aluminum heads and 10.9Scr, and 8.6Dcr. If you have a linear advance curve you are running about .75degrees of mechanical advance per 100 rpm . At a cruising speed of 2600rpm, that might translate to 42degrees of cruise timing. This is probably 10 degrees short of optimum. But with your combo that is sometimes the way things are. So if you spend a lot of time on the hiway, there are some tricks available.
 
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After installing the XE 274 I didn't have any idle control with the mixture screws.
I'd have to measure the hole size as I don't remember but it's .015 of the slot exposed. Yes I am running a pcv. The spark plugs are light tan.
I had FBO recurve the distributor to fit the cam and they recommend to use manifold vacuum. I have a sheet on how it was set up is where I got the numbers from Don.
With the magnum heads it has a 1.6 rocker ratio so the cam has a little more lift, it that makes any difference.
I have decided to replace the converter and freshen up the engine.
Would this be a case where a set of Rhoda's lifters would help?
 
After installing the XE 274 I didn't have any idle control with the mixture screws.
I'd have to measure the hole size as I don't remember but it's .015 of the slot exposed. Yes I am running a pcv. The spark plugs are light tan.
I had FBO recurve the distributor to fit the cam and they recommend to use manifold vacuum. I have a sheet on how it was set up is where I got the numbers from Don.
With the magnum heads it has a 1.6 rocker ratio so the cam has a little more lift, it that makes any difference.
I have decided to replace the converter and freshen up the engine.
Would this be a case where a set of Rhoda's lifters would help?

There it is again..... mixture control.
Are you saying you had no mixture control after the holes went in?
or before? I'm betting before. Your tuner was on the right track, it just never got finished.

I know replacing the TC with a higher stall will help. But the root cause is still there.
As to Rhoads, there is a fello here, that puts them in everything he owns, and loves them. I don't and I can't see a need for them in your combo.I have run 3 performance cams, including the 292/508/108 and never had an issue. I suppose that bad boy-292 could have taken advantage of the Rhoads, on account of the bottom was a little soggy; but I had a clutch and gears so it was not that awful.
I still believe you need more T-port exposure. .015 is waaay not enough. The slots should be a little taller than wide, the mixture screws should be out about 2 turns, the secondaries closed up tight,and the initial timing whatever it takes in the range of 14 to18 degrees to achieve an idle down around 700/750 in neutral and or 650ish in gear. I am not a fan of the holes in the throttle blades, preferring instead to crack the secondaries if the engine wants more air; as the 274cam will.
Some carbs (like your Edelbrock)don't like the secondaries cracked very far until they start producing a tiny hesitation. A little more pump-shot can cure that. But if not, then a combination of less secondary cracking and some thru-hole air is the answer. I prefer to maintain some idle speed adjustability with secondary cracking, cuz once the T-port sync is working really nicely, I don't like to mess with it. So then the only way to adjust the idle speed is with timing or bypass air; and taking off the carb everytime to adjust the hole size gets to be a PITA.
So to that end, I would still recommend to close up those holes and start over cuz I think they are too big right now; you need more Transfer exposure.
So to recap; T-port sync,idle timing, and idle air bypass.And in your case the TC. Getting these four optimized will cure your woes, and the 274 can stay; it's a great cam for a combo like yours, namely;high compression and tight-quench.A 2800TC will really wake it up. Some here on FABO have had great success with higher stalls in custom TCs.

Parting shot; When I was first learning about the T-port sync back in 99, I was on my own. And I happened to start with the 292/508/108 cam so I had a lot of learning to do. I had been a boat mechanic at one time, and I remembered how little 2-cycle outboards are tuned. The porting on those is set up to cruise around 3200 to 3600 on account of that's how fast the props need to turn. Well as you can imagine when you throttle them down, that porting idles pretty raunchy. You could never troll them like that. To tame the idle on those ,they start to retard the timing,a lot. And they always have idle by-pass holes thru the blades. So I remembered all that. And I thought, if it works for them, it should work for that 292.
But where to start?
Well I had been running this beast for a while so I sorta had a baseline. I would have to learn from empiracle data. I picked some arbitrary settings and dialed it in.But what bypass air should I select? Well, I tee'd into the PCV line and installed a restrictor orifice in that new Tee. Then I adjusted the orifice size until the idle speed seemed reasonable. Then the roadtest. There were a lot of roadtests . Eventually I got things dialed in pretty close. I kindof kept records and I could see the progression towards success. The adjustable bypass air helped me a lot. When I was finally happy, I translated that hole size to twin holes and punched them thru the blades. And got rid of that Tee. More roadtests. Eventually I figured out that I could crack the secondaries a bit and get rid of some hole size. But I also figured out that if the secondary cracking got to be too big, it gave me tip-in issues. So I pulled off that 750DP split it open and saw that with just a bit of modding I could deliver some idle fuel into the secondary holes. So I drilled some tiny holes and PRESTO! I had 4 corner idle . Of course it was back to the drawing board on the primary side :( Eventually, I had a set-up that took throttle without tip in sags, idled rumpidy-rumpidy. Idled slow enough that with 4.30s people could walk alongside the car, with me perhaps slipping the clutch now and then. My goal had been accomplished!
So what did I learn?
Well, the T-port sync is job #1, followed very closely with initial timing, and idle air bypass. These three set the stage for a make or break idle. And with an automatic, the stall can be big factor too. With my Holley,it took transfers a little taller than wide, and the 292 liked an awful lot of initial timing. and an awful lot of bypass air.I was uncomfortable giving it the timing that it wanted, and so was the starter. The mini-starter seemed to cure that, but I was still uncomfortable. See; an automatic with a 2800 stall doesn't have this issue. You can crank in a ton of timing and make the engine happy, cuz it is never loaded very hard bellow it's stall. But A stick car is often asked to pull down low. And if I gave it the idle-timing it wanted then it got to be real jumpy down there. It took me a long time to figure out that the jumpiness was not fuel, but rather timing. I finally bought and installed a dash-mounted dial-back timing gizmo, and that is how I figured it out. What I discovered was that at 4 miles per hour, the engine pulled pretty smoothly with timing down to 5* advance. It just didn't have enough torque down at 650 rpm to pull itself on anything but level pavement, and even then it might take a bit of slippage to continue. But I had discovered the secret. First, the jumpiness was not fuel. And secondly; idle-timing and pulling-timing are not the same. Or rather the timing that the engine wants at idle in neutral, is not the same timing that it wants when it's in gear! So My unwillingness to give her 25* in neutral at 750 had been well founded.
So it was back to the drawing board. The T-port sync was established, so I just had bypass air and timing. Back into the PCV line went the Tee. So I cranked the timing back, and adjusted the bypass, and more roadtests. Now I had the adjustable Timing control so I could try timings on the fly! Soon I had an idle timing worked out, and that just left the bypass air.Which by now was not a big deal, cuz I had the 4-corner idle. Soon she was running like a top.
Now I gotta tell you, During this period, I also had to keep adjusting the Power-timing, as the initial was jumping around. And the rate of advance also had to keep up. And of course the idle vacuum was changing so I was swapping PVs, and MJs too. So there was a lot of learning going on and a lot of tuning. And not every change I made was in the right direction. So there were times I was backtracking to the last known-to-be-good setting, and off I went in a new direction.So the point I am getting to, is that zeroing in on the tune, was, for me , a real time consuming passion.Dozens of hours and thousands of miles and months in duration.
Bottom line was, a little taller than wide, 14 to 18 degrees, and whatever bypass required, and make sure all the air going in has at least some fuel in it, so that the overall AFR is a tad rich. Every cam after that followed the same guidline, with minor changes.
Automatics can run a little more idle-timing and; the higher the stall, the more idle-timing it can take. There is a point of too much idle timing. The trick is not to force the engine to take timing but rather,to meet it's needs.
Yeah I know, another flipping novel from AJ...............:)
 
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If you didn't have control over the idle mixture screws the tune up is off.

That camshaft is not the issue, It's only230ish at .050, not big by any means. it's the tune up around the engine. IMO, 16 initial is not enough for what you have. Should be 20-24. That will allow you to close up the primaries and likely get control over the idle mix screws. Crank as much initial in as the starter can handle and see where it lands.
 
If you didn't have control over the idle mixture screws the tune up is off.

That camshaft is not the issue, It's only230ish at .050, not big by any means. it's the tune up around the engine. IMO, 16 initial is not enough for what you have. Should be 20-24. That will allow you to close up the primaries and likely get control over the idle mix screws. Crank as much initial in as the starter can handle and see where it lands.

When I first installed the cam I had no mixture screw control. That's why I drilled the throttle plates.
Now the mixture screws are at 1 1/2 turns out from seated at the max vacuum, 15 inches vacuum in park. The transfer slots are square in shape.
The timing is set at 16*and with manifold vacuum it goes to 21*. You'd think if the v can is 14* at 14 inches the idle timing would be higher. If I set the initial to 18* the starter kicks back, so it's set at 16*
 
Have you verified the TDC mark on your balancer?
Have you verified the action of your Vcan?

I know what you are trying to do, and I believe you are on the right track, but that cam should not need any help from the Vcan, nor much if any holes in the plates.

My current cam (276/286/110) is just a tiny bit bigger than yours, and it has been running on 14* idle-timing for years. With no help from the Vcan and very little bypass air. It idles at 750 easy, and pulls down a lot further.
If your port exposure is square, and your mixture screws are 1.5 turns out, and your float level is correctly set,and your idle-timing is 21*with the Vcan, then the high idle speed is caused by a combination of the bypass-air and excessive timing.
The tight TC is loading up the crank on engagement, and causing a sudden drop in airspeed and the T-ports cannot deliver the correct amount of fuel, at the reduced air speed.And so the engine falters.
When it falters the Vcan drops out and you have a downward spiral to a stall.
I only see one cure; eliminate the Vcan, increase the transfer exposure, and begin reducing bypass air, until the idle speed comes in smooth at 750ish.
Now a looser TC will get you through this tuff spot, and you might think it's cured. And I suppose in a way, it will be. But the loose TC is an added expense, and it will affect your fuel mileage, and I wouldn't be able to stand it that the underlying problem is still there.Besides I dislike an 850 idle where it doesn't need to be that way.
But first you gotta know where TDC is. Exactly.
 
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There it is again..... mixture control.
Are you saying you had no mixture control after the holes went in?
or before? I'm betting before. Your tuner was on the right track, it just never got finished.

I know replacing the TC with a higher stall will help. But the root cause is still there.
As to Rhoads, there is a fello here, that puts them in everything he owns, and loves them. I don't and I can't see a need for them in your combo.I have run 3 performance cams, including the 292/508/108 and never had an issue. I suppose that bad boy-292 could have taken advantage of the Rhoads, on account of the bottom was a little soggy; but I had a clutch and gears so it was not that awful.
I still believe you need more T-port exposure. .015 is waaay not enough. The slots should be a little taller than wide, the mixture screws should be out about 2 turns, the secondaries closed up tight,and the initial timing whatever it takes in the range of 14 to18 degrees to achieve an idle down around 700/750 in neutral and or 650ish in gear. I am not a fan of the holes in the throttle blades, preferring instead to crack the secondaries if the engine wants more air; as the 274cam will.
Some carbs (like your Edelbrock)don't like the secondaries cracked very far until they start producing a tiny hesitation. A little more pump-shot can cure that. But if not, then a combination of less secondary cracking and some thru-hole air is the answer. I prefer to maintain some idle speed adjustability with secondary cracking, cuz once the T-port sync is working really nicely, I don't like to mess with it. So then the only way to adjust the idle speed is with timing or bypass air; and taking off the carb everytime to adjust the hole size gets to be a PITA.
So to that end, I would still recommend to close up those holes and start over cuz I think they are too big right now; you need more Transfer exposure.
So to recap; T-port sync,idle timing, and idle air bypass.And in your case the TC. Getting these four optimized will cure your woes, and the 274 can stay; it's a great cam for a combo like yours, namely;high compression and tight-quench.A 2800TC will really wake it up. Some here on FABO have had great success with higher stalls in custom TCs.

Parting shot; When I was first learning about the T-port sync back in 99, I was on my own. And I happened to start with the 292/508/108 cam so I had a lot of learning to do. I had been a boat mechanic at one time, and I remembered how little 2-cycle outboards are tuned. The porting on those is set up to cruise around 3200 to 3600 on account of that's how fast the props need to turn. Well as you can imagine when you throttle them down, that porting idles pretty raunchy. You could never troll them like that. To tame the idle on those ,they start to retard the timing,a lot. And they always have idle by-pass holes thru the blades. So I remembered all that. And I thought, if it works for them, it should work for that 292.
But where to start?
Well I had been running this beast for a while so I sorta had a baseline. I would have to learn from empiracle data. I picked some arbitrary settings and dialed it in.But what bypass air should I select? Well, I tee'd into the PCV line and installed a restrictor orifice in that new Tee. Then I adjusted the orifice size until the idle speed seemed reasonable. Then the roadtest. There were a lot of roadtests . Eventually I got things dialed in pretty close. I kindof kept records and I could see the progression towards success. The adjustable bypass air helped me a lot. When I was finally happy, I translated that hole size to twin holes and punched them thru the blades. And got rid of that Tee. More roadtests. Eventually I figured out that I could crack the secondaries a bit and get rid of some hole size. But I also figured out that if the secondary cracking got to be too big, it gave me tip-in issues. So I pulled off that 750DP split it open and saw that with just a bit of modding I could deliver some idle fuel into the secondary holes. So I drilled some tiny holes and PRESTO! I had 4 corner idle . Of course it was back to the drawing board on the primary side :( Eventually, I had a set-up that took throttle without tip in sags, idled rumpidy-rumpidy. Idled slow enough that with 4.30s people could walk alongside the car, with me perhaps slipping the clutch now and then. My goal had been accomplished!
So what did I learn?
Well, the T-port sync is job #1, followed very closely with initial timing, and idle air bypass. These three set the stage for a make or break idle. And with an automatic, the stall can be big factor too. With my Holley,it took transfers a little taller than wide, and the 292 liked an awful lot of initial timing. and an awful lot of bypass air.I was uncomfortable giving it the timing that it wanted, and so was the starter. The mini-starter seemed to cure that, but I was still uncomfortable. See; an automatic with a 2800 stall doesn't have this issue. You can crank in a ton of timing and make the engine happy, cuz it is never loaded very hard bellow it's stall. But A stick car is often asked to pull down low. And if I gave it the idle-timing it wanted then it got to be real jumpy down there. It took me a long time to figure out that the jumpiness was not fuel, but rather timing. I finally bought and installed a dash-mounted dial-back timing gizmo, and that is how I figured it out. What I discovered was that at 4 miles per hour, the engine pulled pretty smoothly with timing down to 5* advance. It just didn't have enough torque down at 650 rpm to pull itself on anything but level pavement, and even then it might take a bit of slippage to continue. But I had discovered the secret. First, the jumpiness was not fuel. And secondly; idle-timing and pulling-timing are not the same. Or rather the timing that the engine wants at idle in neutral, is not the same timing that it wants when it's in gear! So My unwillingness to give her 25* in neutral at 750 had been well founded.
So it was back to the drawing board. The T-port sync was established, so I just had bypass air and timing. Back into the PCV line went the Tee. So I cranked the timing back, and adjusted the bypass, and more roadtests. Now I had the adjustable Timing control so I could try timings on the fly! Soon I had an idle timing worked out, and that just left the bypass air.Which by now was not a big deal, cuz I had the 4-corner idle. Soon she was running like a top.
Now I gotta tell you, During this period, I also had to keep adjusting the Power-timing, as the initial was jumping around. And the rate of advance also had to keep up. And of course the idle vacuum was changing so I was swapping PVs, and MJs too. So there was a lot of learning going on and a lot of tuning. And not every change I made was in the right direction. So there were times I was backtracking to the last known-to-be-good setting, and off I went in a new direction.So the point I am getting to, is that zeroing in on the tune, was, for me , a real time consuming passion.Dozens of hours and thousands of miles and months in duration.
Bottom line was, a little taller than wide, 14 to 18 degrees, and whatever bypass required, and make sure all the air going in has at least some fuel in it, so that the overall AFR is a tad rich. Every cam after that followed the same guidline, with minor changes.
Automatics can run a little more idle-timing and; the higher the stall, the more idle-timing it can take. There is a point of too much idle timing. The trick is not to force the engine to take timing but rather,to meet it's needs.
Yeah I know, another flipping novel from AJ...............:)

Very informative! I'm sure I'm not the only person that can benefit
 
Yes the balancer has been checked and has a timing tape on it.
I got a lot out of your novel AJ. Read it three times and I'll rethink changing the cam.
 
I'm just here to help.

It is my opinion that you cannot cure this issue with a smaller cam.
Every combo needs it's own tune. So if you replace the cam with a significantly smaller one, then you just have to start the tune all over. And the bottom line is at your compression ratio (was it 10/1?), there is not much room for a smaller cam. You are already running on the edge for pumpgas. My math works out to Scr10/1, Dcr8.1@163psi. You can go bigger,but smaller not so much. A 262*/110cam would put the ICA around 57*, and that would make 8.3Dcr@168psi, about as high as one might try with iron heads.
Edit
I went back to post#1, and saw 9.9Scr. That makes 8/1@159psi
 
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Isn't 159 psi low? I was thinking I could advance the cam 2* and still ok for pump gas.
I've read where pump gas is ok at 8.5 DCR with iron heads.
 
159 is just right, I wouldn't spend the time it takes, to change it. Your butt-dyno will never feel it. But if it pushes the engine over the limit into 93 gas, you will sure notice that. A year from now after you have solved all your issues, and if you need something to do, then maybe you could think about it.
Besides it's just a calculator.Your results may vary,lol

Very few guys here push over 8.5 with aluminum heads. I run 8.6 on 87E10,fulltime with aluminum heads. So I know I left some on the table. But even a full point, they say translates to just a 4% power increase or maybe less. 4% of 400 is 16 hp.And I have heard only one fello here state that he runs close to 9.5Dcr with aluminum. I don't recall the exact number, but Ima thinking I would max out at a half a point more at 9.1Dcr, which might translate to 2% x 400=8hp
Now the truth is 400 hp in a streeter can spin the tires, big tires, the biggest tires you can fit into the stock wheelhouses to waaaay past the hiway speedlimit. Am I missing those 8 hp? Not even one tiny bit.
Advancing your cam 2*, IMO,and not to be a dick, is a total waste of time,been there/done that.
So lets say I could run a half point more on 91, or 9.0-Dcr. They say aluminum can run a half point more than iron. That, then would agree with what your research says, namely that iron heads can top out at 8.5. It doesn't mean you gotta run there. What's the price difference in your neighborhood between 87 and 91, and how many more dollars are you gonna burn through in a year. Only you can justify the cost. And what if the price of gas doubles overnight?
Your 274* can make a lot of power in your combo. With the right gears and TC, you too can spin the tires all the way to shift-rpm in first and maybe in second too. In a few weeks or by spring time, these days will be but a fading memory.
And I guarantee that a 2800TC or better will put the biggest smile on your face. With a 340, Ima thinking, maybe a lil more,even.lol
 
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If you didn't have control over the idle mixture screws the tune up is off.

That camshaft is not the issue, It's only230ish at .050, not big by any means. it's the tune up around the engine. IMO, 16 initial is not enough for what you have. Should be 20-24. That will allow you to close up the primaries and likely get control over the idle mix screws. Crank as much initial in as the starter can handle and see where it lands.
THIS..... I started with 12 inital,with my Mopar small blocks,OEM iron heads....Ended up closer to 16-18 intial,34 total @ 3000 with a mild Magnum 360,EQ heads....You need to try, and learn....what it likes...( keep a log book,it can help...One adjustment ,at a time.) Good Luck,and stay positive.
 
How do you figure 4 sizes?
20-224-4 - Xtreme Energy™ Hydraulic Flat Tappet Camshafts
I see XE274H,pn 20-224-4 is;..... 274/286/110, and 230/236 @050
The factory 340 cam P4452782... 268/276/114, and 220 @050 IIRC
The advertised affects the Dcr
The 050 sets the performance

I see about 1 size in advertised, 1.5 sizes in performance
Please don't tell me my memory is going............
 
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The XE 274 is four sizes bigger than a stock 340 cam.
Yes it is.... This situation can be solved with the basics...Timing,inital and total,then carb tuning..It takes time , frustion, and effort.Carbs don't adjust themselves,neither do distributors....Patience,is the key....
 
Thanks guys! I have been messing with this for two years so it's been a while.
I have to get the converter sorted out, that is 80% of the problem.
 
how do you figure

Considering a stock 340 auto cam is somewhere around 208/214 at .050 and .429/.444 and an XE274H is 230/236, it's a whole lot bigger.

The bogus sized 340 replacement cam that mopar was/is selling is not close to what these engines had originally.
 
Now I must be going crazy.
I am sure the original 69up 340 cam was a 268. How sloooow would the ramps be,for it to net 208 @050? Surely not (268-208)/2=30* per end. That's crazy slooooow, isn't it?
Most Mopar performance cams I have seen are in the low to mid 20s per end.
Shoot, I thought the 360 2bbl cam was bigger than that...............
 
Now I must be going crazy.
I am sure the original 69up 340 cam was a 268. How sloooow would the ramps be,for it to net 208 @050? Surely not (268-208)/2=30* per end. That's crazy slooooow, isn't it?
Most Mopar performance cams I have seen are in the low to mid 20s per end.
Shoot, I thought the 360 2bbl cam was bigger than that...............

@krazykuda posted this awhile back.

In 68 the auto cam was: .429/.444 268/276 44 O/L

the manual cam was: .444/.453 276/284 52 O/L


Then in 69 and later all 340's had the 68 auto cam.
 
@krazykuda posted this awhile back.

In 68 the auto cam was: .429/.444 268/276 44 O/L

the manual cam was: .444/.453 276/284 52 O/L


Then in 69 and later all 340's had the 68 auto cam.

Yes, those are the specs right out of the 68 Plymouth service manual...


@dibbons contacted me about the 68 340 4 speed cam. I had a custom ground cam that I bought here from another member. We sent it to Oregon Cam Grinders and Ken Heard made a master of it. It is so close to the stock 340 4 speed cam - just .006" less intake lift, but the center lines, duration, and exhaust lift are right on the stock spec. That is as close as we can come right now to a stock 68 340 4 speed cam...

If anyone wants to try it, call Ken Heard at Oregon Cam Grinders....
 
Now I must be going crazy.
I am sure the original 69up 340 cam was a 268. How sloooow would the ramps be,for it to net 208 @050? Surely not (268-208)/2=30* per end. That's crazy slooooow, isn't it?
Most Mopar performance cams I have seen are in the low to mid 20s per end.
Shoot, I thought the 360 2bbl cam was bigger than that...............


The mopar cam should be around 228° @ .050" on the 268 lobe....
 
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