360 block limits

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frosty_the_punk said:
can you please elaborate on this? I'm not sure how you could've come to this conclusion.

EFI can be a comprehensive fuel metering system which can be setup do adjust fuel flow in the tiniest of increments.
we're talking variable pressure, variable flow and variable duration down to the 4th decimal of a millisecond, and injector valve lift measured in microns.

And it can all be calibrated based on almost unlimited number of specific individual variables in atmospheric conditions compared to the engine's operating conditions.
From memory my haltech unit runs at 50 mhz.
That's 50 million calculated processes per second.

In comparison, Carbs have 3 venturi circuits, air bleeds and an accelerator pump. maybe a choke, too.

So yes, i think there is a pretty wide disparity in complexity between the two systems.

sometimes, sure. This does happen.
But you're making it seem as if "blowing **** up" is predominantly an EFI issue when I don't think that's accurate.

The idea that a blown up engine would have stayed alive if only the owner had stuck with his trusty carburettor is something I don't really get behind.
Calibration error is calibrator error.

We don't get to blame EFI for a "bad tune" any more than we get to blame carbs for a "bad tune"

The only difference is, EFI can be tuned in ways which carbs can't.
When a carb is presenting a limitation in accurate fuel metering, such as when facing a fuel distribution issue.. switching to EFI is an excellent way to overcome that limitation.

I'm guessing that might be because nearly all power adder cars are EFI. And for good reason.

blow through carbs are something I wouldn't personally recommend to anyone who values their sanity or their engine.

This makes sense to me.
My personal preference is forced induction over nitrous, but if I was hell-bent on keeping a carburettor on my engine it would be wayyyy easier to get it to be happy around town, and survive on the strip by adding on nitrous instead of boost.

Boost has all those air pressure and temp fluctuations, nitrous has fewer variables to account for.
again... blow through carbs are just a big compromise to me.

But other people run them and love them, I do see a lot of them lunch motors though.
So it's not just an EFI thing.
Click to expand...
The biggest "learning curve" with efi is the technology- IF you fully understand fuel curves/tuning. That's why I said if you understand how to tune and can work a smart phone it's not really that complicated. You and your buddy's already said it can be "tuned in minutes with the push of a button" and now you are trying to tell me it's super complex lol. There are as many guys running efi that don't really know how to tune than carbs BUT the majority are doing it on what is considered average hp by today's standards.

The tuning window gets a lot smaller on something making more than average hp with a power adder and that's where they get into trouble. My question to you is what have you tuned efi on that makes big power with boost?, and subarus, hondas etc. do not count lol.

If you have never done it yet try monitoring the fuel pressure spread between injectors and see how much difference there is between them and then get back to me on fuel distribution problems. Things that seem minor and don't hurt the average street/strip engine will destroy a race engine with a power adder at the track very fast.

One of the fastest street cars we have around here (and the guy drives the wheels off it on the street) is a 7 second camaro with a 540, turbo and a throttle body. He sent the specs to a place out to a tuner in some other state and they spec'd a tune for him and that's what he uses. I will not change any of your minds and I really don't care to, I like efi a lot but I also don't sugarcoat it into being gods gift to the performance world. Like this thread I'm burned out, back to the regular program.
 
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lead69 said:
One of the fastest street cars we have around here (and the guy drives the wheels off it on the street) is a 7 second camaro with a 540, turbo and a throttle body. He sent the specs to a place out to a tuner in some other state and they spec'd a tune for him and that's what he uses. I will not change any of your minds and I really don't care to, I like efi a lot but I also don't sugarcoat it into being gods gift to the performance world. Like this thread I'm burned out, back to the regular program.
Click to expand...
Some guys tune their own and some don't. Just like some build their own engines and some don't. Some also rely on the engine builder or someone he trusts to modify the tune.
I know people who purchase tricked out carbs, and won't hardly change a thing till they run it past the carb builder.
 
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lead69 said:
The biggest "learning curve" with efi is the technology- IF you fully understand fuel curves/tuning. That's why I said if you understand how to tune and can work a smart phone it's not really that complicated.
Click to expand...
Ok, i'm not exactly sure what you mean by the technology. but you also said a lot of guys are getting it wrong and lunching their engines, that's usually a tuner issue.

there are definite pitfalls when it comes to EFI tuning.
I'd estimate that 90% of them are caused either bad/missing flow rate injector data causing unexpected or unpredictable results from a pulsewidth alteration, or an issue with a fuel/ignition conpensation table where something is either put into the VE table instead of a conpensation, or compensations are stacked when they shouldnt be.
If it's hardware related it's usually inadequate grounding which is messing with a 5v sensor signal.

lead69 said:
You and your buddy's already said it can be "tuned in minutes with the push of a button" and now you are trying to tell me it's super complex lol.
Click to expand...
To input the data is quick and simple, literally the push of a button.

Knowing what to input, where to put it, and how to setup the correct parameters for it to take effect. That takes some learning to know what you're doing.

And it's not realistic to expect to just figure it out by browsing the menus and interface. Though so many peoole think they can do this.

If a person hasn't tuned EFI before and hasn't learned the process tries to "wing it" they're definitely going to **** it up.

They'll probably be able to get it to run though.

lead69 said:
There are as many guys running efi that don't really know how to tune than carbs BUT the majority are doing it on what is considered average hp by today's standards.
Click to expand...
I don't see a problem with this, you really don't need to be a carburettor guy to tune efi and vice versa.
lead69 said:
The tuning window gets a lot smaller on something making more than average hp with a power adder and that's where they get into trouble.
Click to expand...
Agreed 100%
lead69 said:
My question to you is what have you tuned efi on that makes big power with boost?, and subarus, hondas etc. do not count lol.
Click to expand...
What classifies as big power to you? And why wouldn't those brands count?
I'm not claiming to be an EFI guru, i'm not a professional. Far from it.
but I have dabbled with boosted cars as a hobby. Certainly nothing I'd describe as "big hp" though.
There are definitely guys on here who are more qualified than myself.
lead69 said:
If you have never done it yet try monitoring the fuel pressure spread between injectors and see how much difference there is between them and then get back to me on fuel distribution problems.
Click to expand...
I have done this, in a sense. When possible I like to design my fuel system so that I can install a fuel pressure gauge at either end of each injector rail as a diagnostic tool. It allows me to compare fuel pressure both bank to bank and end to end.

I tend to leave it upstream of the first injector so that I can monitor any disparity between what pressure my FPR (downstream of all injectors obviously) is set and what the gauge reads.

I haven't seen any significant fluctuations, but I also tend to run a fuel damper, provide substantial headroom on my pumps and more than adequate diameter on my lines. Perhaps I've been lucky so far?

lead69 said:
Things that seem minor and don't hurt the average street/strip engine will destroy a race engine with a power adder at the track very fast.
Click to expand...
Absolutely, the closer an engine is to the knock threshold the more critical it is to tune it correctly. And that's boosted engines in a nutshell.
lead69 said:
One of the fastest street cars we have around here (and the guy drives the wheels off it on the street) is a 7 second camaro with a 540, turbo and a throttle body. He sent the specs to a place out to a tuner in some other state and they spec'd a tune for him and that's what he uses. I will not change any of your minds and I really don't care to, I like efi a lot but I also don't sugarcoat it into being gods gift to the performance world. Like this thread I'm burned out, back to the regular program.
Click to expand...

That is interesting, I'd be extremely apprehensive about getting a canned tune for an engine of that performance level.
But if it's essentially the same combination as one that the remote tuner was intimately familiar with I can see how that would work.

I don't think anyone is saying that EFI is god's gift to the performance world, but rather that it can do a lot of things which carburettors can't.

And like any tool, it can only be as good as the operator.
 
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frosty_the_punk said:
Ok, i'm not exactly sure what you mean by the technology. but you also said a lot of guys are getting it wrong and lunching their engines, that's usually a tuner issue.

there are definite pitfalls when it comes to EFI tuning.
I'd estimate that 90% of them are caused either bad/missing flow rate injector data causing unexpected or unpredictable results from a pulsewidth alteration, or an issue with a fuel/ignition conpensation table where something is either put into the VE table instead of a conpensation, or compensations are stacked when they shouldnt be.
If it's hardware related it's usually inadequate grounding which is messing with a 5v sensor signal.


To input the data is quick and simple, literally the push of a button.

Knowing what to input, where to put it, and how to setup the correct parameters for it to take effect. That takes some learning to know what you're doing.

And it's not realistic to expect to just figure it out by browsing the menus and interface. Though so many peoole think they can do this.

If a person hasn't tuned EFI before and hasn't learned the process tries to "wing it" they're definitely going to **** it up.

They'll probably be able to get it to run though.


I don't see a problem with this, you really don't need to be a carburettor guy to tune efi and vice versa.

Agreed 100%

What classifies as big power to you? And why wouldn't those brands count?
I'm not claiming to be an EFI guru, i'm not a professional. Far from it.
but I have dabbled with boosted cars as a hobby. Certainly nothing I'd describe as "big hp" though.
There are definitely guys on here who are more qualified than myself.

I have done this, in a sense. When possible I like to design my fuel system so that I can install a fuel pressure gauge at either end of each injector rail as a diagnostic tool. It allows me to compare fuel pressure both bank to bank and end to end.

I tend to leave it upstream of the first injector so that I can monitor any disparity between what pressure my FPR (downstream of all injectors obviously) is set and what the gauge reads.

I haven't seen any significant fluctuations, but I also tend to run a fuel damper, provide substantial headroom on my pumps and more than adequate diameter on my lines. Perhaps I've been lucky so far?


Absolutely, the closer an engine is to the knock threshold the more critical it is to tune it correctly. And that's boosted engines in a nutshell.


That is interesting, I'd be extremely apprehensive about getting a canned tune for an engine of that performance level.
But if it's essentially the same combination as one that the remote tuner was intimately familiar with I can see how that would work.

I don't think anyone is saying that EFI is god's gift to the performance world, but rather that it can do a lot of things which carburettors can't.

And like any tool, it can only be as good as the operator.
Click to expand...


LOFingL.
 
frosty_the_punk said:
Cheers for your valuable contribution.
Appreciate you keeping it short. The less you say, the more peaceful these forums tend to be.
Take care now :thankyou:
Click to expand...
Didn't you know?
Now if you engage with Tweedledee, you're going to get a response from Tweedledum.
They are...how should I say this.....'partners'. ;)
 
Rat Bastid said:
I didn’t say any of that. What I said was a fact and you’re sniveling. GTF over it.

If you want I can post a link to a video where Anderson prefers carbs. Line too. And some circle track guy who’s name I can’t think of.

Stop acting like a cry baby. Go start your own shop.

EDIT: just to be clear, your post blamed carburation for distribution issues. I said it’s not the carb’s fault. And that’s a FACT because the carb gives each cylinder what IT wants.

Thats my point. Had nothing to do with carb verses EFI or what was better in what situation. You did that. And one of the wankers from down under.

Don‘t blame a carb for distribution issues.
Click to expand...
Just to elaborate...
The only FI used in oval track racing are mechanical systems used in open wheel cars. Carbs are used in every other class. The super late model dirt cars can make 900hp with a single 4 bbl.
 
frosty_the_punk said:
Cheers for your valuable contribution.
Appreciate you keeping it short. The less you say, the more peaceful these forums tend to be.
Take care now :thankyou:
Click to expand...

You‘re own words prove you are just an inexperienced internet mouthy punk.

You don’t have a clue.

Just to clarify, a carb gives the engine what IT WANTS.

It’s THAT simple. If you have lean or fat cylinders, fix your shitty intake.

Its not a carb issue.

You can’t grasp that because your agenda is your 36 year old experience isn’t nowhere close to what you think it is.

You don’t know what you don’t know. Junk **** jap cars with fart cans are a joke. That’s your area of expertise.

And for ALL the word salad you have thrown out in this thread, you didn’t answer the OP’s question. You didn’t because you can’t.

Stay in your lane.
 
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Arthur Sperotto said:
Whoa. Is that the rodent "jumping in a thread and adding nothing", to quote himself? Doesn't that make him... a punk wanker?? Or was it a troll? :icon_fU:
Click to expand...

Still waiting for you to post your badassed junk you claim is all that.

Or how about you post your theory on why big power adder engines don’t use carbs (although some do) and go into detail?

Thats where this thread went. I guy asked a simple question. Then a few derelicts jumped into the deep pool and say nothing but bullshit.

You troll and get away with it.

So post up your theory.

Or do what you always do and post some snarky, 30 something bullshit because you can’t do anything else.
 
Let me grab my laptop and get out of this Mario screen.
 
Rat Bastid said:
Still waiting for you to post your badassed junk you claim is all that.

Or how about you post your theory on why big power adder engines don’t use carbs (although some do) and go into detail?

Thats where this thread went. I guy asked a simple question. Then a few derelicts jumped into the deep pool and say nothing but bullshit.

You troll and get away with it.

So post up your theory.

Or do what you always do and post some snarky, 30 something bullshit because you can’t do anything else.
Click to expand...
LOFingL.
 
Arthur Sperotto said:
LOFingL.
Click to expand...


That’s exactly as I expected.

You can’t have a reasonable, adult discussion of the topic because YOU are incapable of doing it.

About six DECADES of dealing with clowns like you has made my tolerance for bullshitters and bullshitting nonexistent.

So clown all you want. The joke is on you, u less you want to try and have a reasonable discussion on the topic. That will be you and YOU only. I will ignore all the down under wankers just for GP.

Its up to you. You can run, but you can’t hide.
 
Rat Bastid said:
That’s exactly as I expected.

You can’t have a reasonable, adult discussion of the topic because YOU are incapable of doing it.

About six DECADES of dealing with clowns like you has made my tolerance for bullshitters and bullshitting nonexistent.

So clown all you want. The joke is on you, u less you want to try and have a reasonable discussion on the topic. That will be you and YOU only. I will ignore all the down under wankers just for GP.

Its up to you. You can run, but you can’t hide.
Click to expand...
Yuppers!
 
Rat Bastid said:
You‘re own words prove you are just an inexperienced internet mouthy punk.

You don’t have a clue.

Just to clarify, a carb gives the engine what IT WANTS.

It’s THAT simple. If you have lean or fat cylinders, fix your shitty intake.

Its not a carb issue.

You can’t grasp that because your agenda is your 36 year old experience isn’t nowhere close to what you think it is.

You don’t know what you don’t know. Junk **** jap cars with fart cans are a joke. That’s your area of expertise.

And for ALL the word salad you have thrown out in this thread, you didn’t answer the OP’s question. You didn’t because you can’t.

Stay in your lane.
Click to expand...
That certainly is an opinion.
thanks for sharing a post dedicated to letting us all know what you think of me.
I'm truly flattered you care this much.

What's it like living inside such an angry head?

You don't have to answer that, I can pretty easily tell by your sunny disposition.
Again. You take care now. :thankyou:
 
Rat Bastid said:
That’s exactly as I expected.

You can’t have a reasonable, adult discussion of the topic because YOU are incapable of doing it.

About six DECADES of dealing with clowns like you has made my tolerance for bullshitters and bullshitting nonexistent.

So clown all you want. The joke is on you, u less you want to try and have a reasonable discussion on the topic. That will be you and YOU only. I will ignore all the down under wankers just for GP.

Its up to you. You can run, but you can’t hide.
Click to expand...
LOL. Hilarious, truly hilarious...
You must have the memory of a goldfish..
I've been down this road with you before, and it just ends up with you acting like a dick. The same way that you act like a dick towards anyone else here who you think may show you up.
No thanks, that window of opportunity closed a long time ago. You're not worth the effort.

You may think you're a big fish who has found his way into a small pond here at A bodies, but the reality is that your not. Google has more to offer than you, and it has a sunnier, friendlier disposition.

You've been carrying on in this forum like a jackass for ages, that's why you've been banned so many times. Not because anyone has it "in for you", and not because anyone is a "favorite" , it's because of your unreasonable piss poor attitude. And for someone who's quick to point out how others are stupid, you can't seem to get that simple fact through your thick head.
The fact is you're now getting treated with the disdain you truly deserve. No one is going to be "running" and "hiding" from that.
 
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Bakerlite said:
Didn't you know?
Now if you engage with Tweedledee, you're going to get a response from Tweedledum.
They are...how should I say this.....'partners'. ;)
Click to expand...
if you are referring to me than shockingly you would be wrong again. I appreciate the enthusiasm of frosty since he actually thinks and brought something to the table unlike you. If you look at your postings 90% are just drivel and snide comments stirring the pot. At least your other mates try to contribute but you are truly a waste of this sites time, period, as my wife would say you are a drongo.

@frosty_the_punk , I will respond out of respect to you but I don't want to debate on this thread anymore. It is clear we are coming at it from opposite ends of the spectrum.

A subaru or honda cannot be compared to say a 632 with a pro charger and efi.

To me "big" power now days (especially with a power adder) starts at 1k or better.

In todays world 500hp is the new 350hp, 600hp is the new 450hp and what used to be big power at 750hp is now 1k plus.

If a person has never tuned or hung out with someone who tunes a drag car with a v8, power adder and efi making 1khp plus at the track than they have no clue as to the parameters of doing such and should not make assumptions as to what it takes to make good power and make it live.
 
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lead69 said:
if you are referring to me than shockingly you would be wrong again.
Click to expand...
Well then, I should just say, in this case I am not wrong. I'm sure you can reverse engineer it from there. :)
 
Bakerlite said:
Well then, I should just say, in this case I am not wrong. I'm sure you can reverse engineer it from there. :)
Click to expand...
I guess you just proved my point as to the content and intentions of your posts, carry on as I concede, a drongo you are lol.
 
Bakerlite said:
LOL. Hilarious, truly hilarious...
You must have the memory of a goldfish..
I've been down this road with you before, and it just ends up with you acting like a dick. The same way that you act like a dick towards anyone else here who you think may show you up.
No thanks, that window of opportunity closed a long time ago. You're not worth the effort.

You may think you're a big fish who has found his way into a small pond here at A bodies, but the reality is that your not. Google has more to offer than you, and it has a sunnier, friendlier disposition.

You've been carrying on in this forum like a jackass for ages, that's why you've been banned so many times. Not because anyone has it "in for you", and not because anyone is a "favorite" , it's because of your unreasonable piss poor attitude. And for someone who's quick to point out how others are stupid, you can't seem to get that simple fact through your thick head.
The fact is you're now getting treated with the disdain you truly deserve. No one is going to be "running" and "hiding" from that.
Click to expand...


I didn’t invite you to a conversation. I don’t discuss things like this with lower forms of plant life, so piss off.


And don’t forget, I’m STILL here, in spite of the rules not being applied equally. Here you are, trolling AGAIN. Yet your mouthy punk *** gets to keep on trolling.

Must be nice to suck up to the moderators.
 
I don't know what a drongo is, but if a woman says it, it has to be bad to be called one. lol
 
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