360 block limits

[frosty_the_punk]

I commend you, Frosty. Extremely well-worded and eloquent. Which is why this is all going to fly right over Rat's head and he will resume with the mindless name-calling. My favorite part is his signature, "tuning isn't magic, it is a science that can be learned" - yet he refuses to accept that science... or to even learn it. Please see his incoming offensive and hilarious bs post below.

Cheers man.

That quote sounded familiar, very, very familiar.

I pretty much immediately recognised it as the catch phrase for HP Academy.
The company i mentioned earlier in the thread who provide online EFI tuning courses (which are excellent in my opinion)

It's literally written all over their merchandise and website. I even have it on a coffee mug they sent me.Mug | HPA 'Tuning Isn't Magic' Slogan - White And Black

I didn't know rat was quoting them in his sig though. That's dripping in irony. Too funny. What an absolute potato.

 

[Mean416]

This dude joined in 2018 and has 60 messages. Hell he gone soon enough. And if not there's always ignore

 

[frosty_the_punk]

I've seen too many carb'd engines go down the track pig fat, slow but living to make another run, the flipside is I've seen just as many fast, high powered power adder cars with efi **** the bed half way down the track cause the dude don't know how to tune.

This is a valid point, a lot of people do make mistakes with EFI because they make assumptions or don't research properly before they get hands on with the laptop. This is a very optimistic approach.

But bad tuning isn't really the fault of the system.

EFI is more complex than carburettors, but the upside is it has capabilities far beyond that of a carburetor as long as the tuner is on top of his game.

You may see a lot of EFI cars **** the bed. But with EFI There are specific active systems that can be implemented to avoid having your engine **** the bed

Even though these systems are usually routine for professionals, unfortunately very few amateurs or DIY guys take the time to set these systems up correctly because they consider them unnecessary.

If your wideband O2 sensor detects an unexpected lean condition it can dial back ignition timing in milliseconds. The same can be done with thermocouples to keep an eye on EGT.

With the addition of a fly by wire throttle body you can even set it up your desired parameters for cutting any combination of air, fuel and spark to any degree you choose

A coolant pressure sensor can immediately detect a spike in coolant pressure caused by a head gasket failure. Or a lack of pressure caused by a water pump failure which limits circulation.
Same goes for your trans fluid.

The cooling systems can also have fans dialed to run your trans fluid or engine coolant within a narrow temperature range for optimum performance and reliability.

If any of these go beyond normal operating range, you can catch the problem and fix it *before* your engine/trans lunches itself.

There's just so many things you can do with EFI that can make your parts survive when something small inevitably goes wrong.

Carbs are great at what they do, but there is a whole world of things they don't do at all.

 

[Bakerlite]

This is a valid point, a lot of people do make mistakes with EFI because they make assumptions or don't research properly before they get hands on with the laptop. This is a very optimistic approach.

But bad tuning isn't really the fault of the system.

EFI is more complex than carburettors, but the upside is it has capabilities far beyond that of a carburetor as long as the tuner is on top of his game.

You may see a lot of EFI cars **** the bed. But with EFI There are specific active systems that can be implemented to avoid having your engine **** the bed

Even though these systems are usually routine for professionals, unfortunately very few amateurs or DIY guys take the time to set these systems up correctly because they consider them unnecessary.

If your wideband O2 sensor detects an unexpected lean condition it can dial back ignition timing in milliseconds. The same can be done with thermocouples to keep an eye on EGT.

With the addition of a fly by wire throttle body you can even set it up your desired parameters for cutting any combination of air, fuel and spark to any degree you choose

A coolant pressure sensor can immediately detect a spike in coolant pressure caused by a head gasket failure. Or a lack of pressure caused by a water pump failure which limits circulation.
Same goes for your trans fluid.

The cooling systems can also have fans dialed to run your trans fluid or engine coolant within a narrow temperature range for optimum performance and reliability.

If any of these go beyond normal operating range, you can catch the problem and fix it *before* your engine/trans lunches itself.

There's just so many things you can do with EFI that can make your parts survive when something small inevitably goes wrong.

Carbs are great at what they do, but there is a whole world of things they don't do at all.

When I'm at Drag Week, and I cast my eye over the Unlimited cars, I'm not seeing many carbs .
Yep, take an EFI car from sea level to a mountain top and then from winter in Alaska to summer in White Sands . Then do the same with a finely tuned carb and see the diifference.

 

[Arthur Sperotto]

This is a valid point, a lot of people do make mistakes with EFI because they make assumptions or don't research properly before they get hands on with the laptop. This is a very optimistic approach.

But bad tuning isn't really the fault of the system.

EFI is more complex than carburettors, but the upside is it has capabilities far beyond that of a carburetor as long as the tuner is on top of his game.

You may see a lot of EFI cars **** the bed. But with EFI There are specific active systems that can be implemented to avoid having your engine **** the bed

Even though these systems are usually routine for professionals, unfortunately very few amateurs or DIY guys take the time to set these systems up correctly because they consider them unnecessary.

If your wideband O2 sensor detects an unexpected lean condition it can dial back ignition timing in milliseconds. The same can be done with thermocouples to keep an eye on EGT.

With the addition of a fly by wire throttle body you can even set it up your desired parameters for cutting any combination of air, fuel and spark to any degree you choose

A coolant pressure sensor can immediately detect a spike in coolant pressure caused by a head gasket failure. Or a lack of pressure caused by a water pump failure which limits circulation.
Same goes for your trans fluid.

The cooling systems can also have fans dialed to run your trans fluid or engine coolant within a narrow temperature range for optimum performance and reliability.

If any of these go beyond normal operating range, you can catch the problem and fix it *before* your engine/trans lunches itself.

There's just so many things you can do with EFI that can make your parts survive when something small inevitably goes wrong.

Carbs are great at what they do, but there is a whole world of things they don't do at all.

All great points. I didn't wanna skew from the main topic of this thread (which is obviously to make fun of the rodent), but since you put effort into making good points, I feel like I can add to them.

I do have a Holley/Quick Fuel 850 "race" Brawler on my '71 Swinger, and I like having it there. That car is all old-school, and the carb helps paint the picture. Bench seat, big factory steering wheel, you know the deal. It's a ~500hp 360, nothing crazy, just nice. I've put hours into that carb, it has all screw-in restrictors and bleeds so it's "easy" to tune (easy in quotes because it's still a pain in the ***). I have a micro drill bit set, blanks, mic, and I drill my own restrictors. It idles clean and crisp, and behaves well under all scenarios... until the weather goes up or down 30 degrees lol.

However... I also have another vehicle that has 12:1 compression, AND receives up to about 40psi of boost, depending on what the track surface will take. Makes over twice the hp of the Dart. It runs well in any scenario, from hot to cold, low to high altitude, and can run on any mixture of alcohol and gasoline, thanks to the flex fuel sensor I added. Also gets decent mpg, and I run it primarily on E85, so it's cheap to run. I use most of the safety features Frosty mentioned. Completely tuned by me from day 1. If any part of the maps is not right, it takes seconds to fix it with the push of a couple buttons, no need to pull over, shut it off, open hood, get tools out, remove fuel bowl, blah blah blah. Oh, and did I mention it's my daily? THAT, is the beauty of EFI.

 

[Bakerlite]

I took a couple of these and fitted them as well as the rest of an EFI system to a V12 for a customer.

 

[TT5.9mag]

All great points. I didn't wanna skew from the main topic of this thread (which is obviously to make fun of the rodent), but since you put effort into making good points, I feel like I can add to them.

I do have a Holley/Quick Fuel 850 "race" Brawler on my '71 Swinger, and I like having it there. That car is all old-school, and the carb helps paint the picture. Bench seat, big factory steering wheel, you know the deal. It's a ~500hp 360, nothing crazy, just nice. I've put hours into that carb, it has all screw-in restrictors and bleeds so it's "easy" to tune (easy in quotes because it's still a pain in the ***). I have a micro drill bit set, blanks, mic, and I drill my own restrictors. It idles clean and crisp, and behaves well under all scenarios... until the weather goes up or down 30 degrees lol.

However... I also have another vehicle that has 12:1 compression, AND receives up to about 40psi of boost, depending on what the track surface will take. Makes over twice the hp of the Dart. It runs well in any scenario, from hot to cold, low to high altitude, and can run on any mixture of alcohol and gasoline, thanks to the flex fuel sensor I added. Also gets decent mpg, and I run it primarily on E85, so it's cheap to run. I use most of the safety features Frosty mentioned. Completely tuned by me from day 1. If any part of the maps is not right, it takes seconds to fix it with the push of a couple buttons, no need to pull over, shut it off, open hood, get tools out, remove fuel bowl, blah blah blah. Oh, and did I mention it's my daily? THAT, is the beauty of EFI.

What car is your daily?

 

[lead69]

s is a valid point, a lot of people do make mistakes with EFI because they make assumptions or don't research properly before they get hands on with the laptop. This is a very optimistic approach.

But bad tuning isn't really the fault of the system.

EFI is more complex than carburettors, but the upside is it has capabilities far beyond that of a carburetor as long as the tuner is on top of his game.

You may see a lot of EFI cars **** the bed. But with EFI There are specific active systems that can be implemented to avoid having your engine **** the bed

Even though these systems are usually routine for professionals, unfortunately very few amateurs or DIY guys take the time to set these systems up correctly because they consider them unnecessary.

If your wideband O2 sensor detects an unexpected lean condition it can dial back ignition timing in milliseconds. The same can be done with thermocouples to keep an eye on EGT.

With the addition of a fly by wire throttle body you can even set it up your desired parameters for cutting any combination of air, fuel and spark to any degree you choose

A coolant pressure sensor can immediately detect a spike in coolant pressure caused by a head gasket failure. Or a lack of pressure caused by a water pump failure which limits circulation.
Same goes for your trans fluid.

The cooling systems can also have fans dialed to run your trans fluid or engine coolant within a narrow temperature range for optimum performance and reliability.

If any of these go beyond normal operating range, you can catch the problem and fix it *before* your engine/trans lunches itself.

There's just so many things you can do with EFI that can make your parts survive when something small inevitably goes wrong.

Carbs are great at what they do, but there is a whole world of things they don't do at all.

Only problem efi is not more complex than a carb IF you know how to tune. Too many guys who don't know how to tune carbs slap efi on because they are told about all the benefits and reliability/tune capabilities. those same guys start to make power and blow **** up. Every single car I've seen at any local drag strip (we are spoiled and have 5 close to me) that have blown an engine were power adder cars with efi period. Around here there are not that many fast guys still running nitrous but all of the ones I know have a carb under the hood.

 

[lead69]

When I'm at Drag Week, and I cast my eye over the Unlimited cars, I'm not seeing many carbs .
Yep, take an EFI car from sea level to a mountain top and then from winter in Alaska to summer in White Sands . Then do the same with a finely tuned carb and see the diifference.

Do you have a drag week car?, or anything close to that that requires that level of performance?, or costs even close to what those guys spend?. Comparing drag week cars to this conversation is apples and oranges.

 

[Bakerlite]

Do you have a drag week car?, or anything close to that that requires that level of performance?, or costs even close to what those guys spend?. Comparing drag week cars to this conversation is apples and oranges.

Who says I'm comparing anything? Just making an observation.

 

[Bakerlite]

Only problem efi is not more complex than a carb IF you know how to tune. Too many guys who don't know how to tune carbs slap efi on because they are told about all the benefits and reliability/tune capabilities. those same guys start to make power and blow **** up. Every single car I've seen at any local drag strip (we are spoiled and have 5 close to me) that have blown an engine were power adder cars with efi period. Around here there are not that many fast guys still running nitrous but all of the ones I know have a carb under the hood.

Sounds like they can't tune a carb or EFI.. Bummer for them I guess.
Also when I'm talking about EFI, I'm talking about multi point, not throttle body.

 

[justinp61]

Current motor is a 1978 360 bored .030 over, eq magnum heads slightly ported, edelbrock rpm airgap slightly ported, 10.7:1 compression .
Scat cast crank and rods and srp forged pistons. Arp rod and head bolts, possibly main cap bolts too. Internally balanced.
Cam: 109 lsa
Duration @.050 239 242
Lift .562 .559
Currently makes 440 hp 490ftlbs

With proper ring gap, fuel and ignition how big of a shot would a motor like this handle? Thinking of a 100 shot. Would something like this require the water jackets to be half filled?

Also thinking of getting a 90s magnum 318 engine and putting a cam in and slight head work and hope for 375-400hp. Then mess with nitrous on that motor. Just so I don't scatter my expensive motor. Would the cast pistons in those handle significantly less?

I hope the OP got what he was looking for in the first two pages, because the rest of them have turned into a pissing match. Sadly, it's the new norm here.

 

[pittsburghracer]

Hey I did hear about another 360 with cracked cylinder bores this week. Another one of those guys that put cement in his block instead of his swimming pool.

 

[Rat Bastid]

I hope the OP got what he was looking for in the first two pages, because the rest of them have turned into a pissing match. Sadly, it's the new norm here.

Of course he didn’t get what he was looking for. There is no definitive answer to his question.

He wants someone to tell him that what he wants to do will survive. Maybe it will, maybe it won’t.

A big factor in if it will live is the quality of the machine work that went into it. If it was set up with clearances on the tight side (bearing clearances) and he starts hammering on it then the block flexes and the crank starts bending then the clearance goes to less than zero and **** starts leaving the block.

Who knows what’s on it for a crank damper. He may run into a frequency issue when **** starts moving around and the damper can’t handle that because it’s a frequency it can’t dampen and it just happens to occur in an RPM/load range where it spends too much time and **** starts coming out.

Or, maybe he can hit it with a 250 shot and it lives forever.

Way too many variables to give a definitive answer. But I’ll say it again. I don’t ever build a performance engine with a cast crank. You never know what you may want to do down the road and a cast crank and cast pistons will not take as much stress as forged stuff.

And, I forgot to mention the bending loads on the snout end of the crank are far greater is it’s externally balanced. So there is that to figure in as well.

I‘m not trying to discourage the OP. Just pointing out what the answer SHOULD be to his question.

Maybe, maybe not.

And now we will have another **** show because the trolls will chime in with their builds where they make 1200 HP on the hose with stock everything and did it for years and never so much as cleaned the tip off a plug.

Thats Walt Disney type fantasy right there.

 

[polyjohn]

So the answer is?

Blocks always last the distance, if you don't rev the crap outta it and you use a good crank that is balanced properly...
Bad harmonics will knock down houses, tower blocks and 360 truck blocks too.

Just look at Turkey, some houses stayed up some fell down.
Very sad for them poor folks indeed.

 

[lead69]

I hope the OP got what he was looking for in the first two pages, because the rest of them have turned into a pissing match. Sadly, it's the new norm here.

Honestly I'm not sure what more there is to learn about the limits of a stock block, it's kind of been beat to death on here before. But you know someone has to chime in and say they prefer this to that for the block to live and then someone else has to make snide comments just to stir the pot without adding a dam thing and then on and on it goes. I've said it before and it fit's, this place is like watching the classroom scenes at the beginning of kindergarten cop most of the time.

 

[justinp61]

A 100 shot won’t hurt the block with the OP’s build.

 

[crackedback]

Honestly I'm not sure what more there is to learn about the limits of a stock block, it's kind of been beat to death on here before. But you know someone has to chime in and say they prefer this to that for the block to live and then someone else has to make snide comments just to stir the pot without adding a dam thing and then on and on it goes. I've said it before and it fit's, this place is like watching the classroom scenes at the beginning of kindergarten cop most of the time.

Indeed. What about a girdle? LOL FFS please don't anyone answer that one!

A 100 shot won’t hurt the block with the OP’s build.

I can put a 100 shot on a 360 and blow stuff sky high with a garbage tune up. Put a 200 on the same engine and have it run smooth as butter.

This place is a shitshow many times which is unfortunate. More on the ignore list from this gem of a thread.

 

[justinp61]

Indeed. What about a girdle? LOL FFS please don't anyone answer that one!



I can put a 100 shot on a 360 and blow stuff sky high with a garbage tune up. Put a 200 on the same engine and have it run smooth as butter.

This place is a shitshow many times which is unfortunate. More on the ignore list from this gem of a thread.

Hell, I’ve seen people blow 360’s n/a. You have enough sense to tune it. Do stupid stuff, win stupid prizes.

 

[TT5.9mag]

Do stupid stuff, win stupid prizes

Quote of 2023 so far.

 

[pittsburghracer]

Hell, I’ve seen people blow 360’s n/a. You have enough sense to tune it. Do stupid stuff, win stupid prizes.

Kinda like 727 transmissions. They could last years or just one wrong burn-out.

 

[fishmens67]

Kinda like 727 transmissions. They could last years or just one wrong burn-out.

Yep, one never knows, all things mechanical can break. Quality machine work, blocks and parts put's you ahead of the game, but no guarantee.
One man's limit, is another man's failure.

 

[frosty_the_punk]

Only problem efi is not more complex than a carb IF you know how to tune.

can you please elaborate on this? I'm not sure how you could've come to this conclusion.

EFI can be a comprehensive fuel metering system which can be setup do adjust fuel flow in the tiniest of increments.
we're talking variable pressure, variable flow and variable duration down to the 4th decimal of a millisecond, and injector valve lift measured in microns.

And it can all be calibrated based on almost unlimited number of specific individual variables in atmospheric conditions compared to the engine's operating conditions.
From memory my haltech unit runs at 50 mhz.
That's 50 million calculated processes per second.

In comparison, Carbs have 3 venturi circuits, air bleeds and an accelerator pump. maybe a choke, too.

So yes, i think there is a pretty wide disparity in complexity between the two systems.

Too many guys who don't know how to tune carbs slap efi on because they are told about all the benefits and reliability/tune capabilities. those same guys start to make power and blow **** up.

sometimes, sure. This does happen.
But you're making it seem as if "blowing **** up" is predominantly an EFI issue when I don't think that's accurate.

The idea that a blown up engine would have stayed alive if only the owner had stuck with his trusty carburettor is something I don't really get behind.
Calibration error is calibrator error.

We don't get to blame EFI for a "bad tune" any more than we get to blame carbs for a "bad tune"

The only difference is, EFI can be tuned in ways which carbs can't.
When a carb is presenting a limitation in accurate fuel metering, such as when facing a fuel distribution issue.. switching to EFI is an excellent way to overcome that limitation.

Every single car I've seen at any local drag strip (we are spoiled and have 5 close to me) that have blown an engine were power adder cars with efi period.

I'm guessing that might be because nearly all power adder cars are EFI. And for good reason.

blow through carbs are something I wouldn't personally recommend to anyone who values their sanity or their engine.

Around here there are not that many fast guys still running nitrous but all of the ones I know have a carb under the hood.

This makes sense to me.
My personal preference is forced induction over nitrous, but if I was hell-bent on keeping a carburettor on my engine it would be wayyyy easier to get it to be happy around town, and survive on the strip by adding on nitrous instead of boost.

Boost has all those air pressure and temp fluctuations, nitrous has fewer variables to account for.
again... blow through carbs are just a big compromise to me.

But other people run them and love them, I do see a lot of them lunch motors though.
So it's not just an EFI thing.

 

[frosty_the_punk]

All great points. I didn't wanna skew from the main topic of this thread (which is obviously to make fun of the rodent), but since you put effort into making good points, I feel like I can add to them.

I do have a Holley/Quick Fuel 850 "race" Brawler on my '71 Swinger, and I like having it there. That car is all old-school, and the carb helps paint the picture. Bench seat, big factory steering wheel, you know the deal. It's a ~500hp 360, nothing crazy, just nice. I've put hours into that carb, it has all screw-in restrictors and bleeds so it's "easy" to tune (easy in quotes because it's still a pain in the ***). I have a micro drill bit set, blanks, mic, and I drill my own restrictors. It idles clean and crisp, and behaves well under all scenarios... until the weather goes up or down 30 degrees lol.

However... I also have another vehicle that has 12:1 compression, AND receives up to about 40psi of boost, depending on what the track surface will take. Makes over twice the hp of the Dart. It runs well in any scenario, from hot to cold, low to high altitude, and can run on any mixture of alcohol and gasoline, thanks to the flex fuel sensor I added. Also gets decent mpg, and I run it primarily on E85, so it's cheap to run. I use most of the safety features Frosty mentioned. Completely tuned by me from day 1. If any part of the maps is not right, it takes seconds to fix it with the push of a couple buttons, no need to pull over, shut it off, open hood, get tools out, remove fuel bowl, blah blah blah. Oh, and did I mention it's my daily? THAT, is the beauty of EFI.

This is actually a great comparison between the two technologies.
It's not that carbs are bad, it's that EFI has the capability to do so much more, especially in forced induction applications where carburettors really show their limitations.

 

[340BABY]

Hi, I run 400hp Nitrous (Doul Plate Edelbrock system on a Tunnel Ram) on a 1972 360 LA, and have for three years in my son 1977 2600lb F Body, and all I do is Magnaflux it every year. Here is how we do it, use it if you want, I will just put it out there for you to think about. The first thing I will tell you will cause all kinds of comments, it is always funny when I bring this part up. I am a Mechanical Engineer, my father was one as well, but he was also part of the design team members that designed the 360. When they started 360 the did not have a dedicated mold for the 360 so they used the 340 and stamped it 360 until mid 1973. This is getting sidetracked so I will, “in complete disclosure.” We have changed to the R Siamese Bore Blocks, with 4 bolt mains and girdle.

But back on topic, I will tell you what we do and you can decide if we are lucky or good.

Block (2) 1971 blocks heat treated (Put in a kiln heated to 1500 degrees and cooled in 500 increments) and Magnaflux, Main studs and aligned honed, with girdle, the block was squared, with hard block. Heb McCandless oiling system (and yes it works great). 7qt oil pan

Now when it comes to the bottom end there are two thoughts “Strong or Soft” Aluminum Rod and caps or how we did it Strong Steel caps and H-Beam Rods, with free floating pistons, and a balanced rotating assembly.

Heads Edelbrock RPM with full Hughes Porting with needle bearing rockers with heavy walled cupped push rods and 1.6 rockers and 640 lift roller cam.

Gear drive cam gears

We like to use Ross piston at 0 deck, Flat Tops to allow for consist 360 pressure. 13.0 to 1 with Aluminum heads the engine thinks it is 1 CR less.

Modified or Nitrous Oxide - 0.005in x 4.00in bore = 0.020 inch ring gap. “we ran them at 0.024

Cams we run 112 to 114 center on the cams, 2 degrees of retard for every 100hp of NX, and a dedicated fuel pump and tank for the NX. 100 gph for every 100hp “so if you have a 400hp system you run 400 GPH fuel pump, with a 5 gal tank.

You can use Cometic TRI-Metal “0.040” gasket up to 250hp of NX after that its O-Ringing the Block and Copper Gaskets.

You can played with a time delay for activation, if you are running a 904 I would delay the activation until 0.002 after you shift to second gear. To comp for that you can run a 2.72 first gear and you will still have a good strong launch. The inherent weakness of the 904 is the 1 to 2 gear shift.

For 100 hp NX shot 2 degrees retard on timing, and run a bigger fuel pump, TM Head Gaskets and you will be fine. DO NOT RUN A DRY SYSTEM.