360 hydraulic lifter valve lash

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i have been fighting valve train noise for some time and i decided to get some input. i have put together a number of small and big blocks, but i have never ran into this before. engine is a 77 360. came out of 33,000 mile cordoba. this engine is super clean and ran great when i bought it. it had a slight ticking, but great oil pressure, that i contributed to weak lifters/exhaust leak. before i put this in my charger, i did the following:

pushrods were all checked and are at spec
new oil pump
new 284/480 cam kit with new lifters:

Hydraulic flat tappetBasic Operating RPM Range2,500-6,000
Intake Duration at 050 inch Lift228
Exhaust Duration at 050 inch Lift228
Advertised Intake Duration284
Advertised Exhaust Duration284.
Intake Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio0.480 in.
Exhaust Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio0.480 in.
Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio0.480 int./0.480 exh

although the summit cam card recommends new springs, i talked to several techs and they ALL agree that my factory valve springs are more than adequate for this cam, and with it being such a low mileage engine, i did not change the springs.

new stamped factory rockers and shafts
i pre-pumped the lifters and primed the pump before installing
new double roller chain and sprockets

i then bolted the shafts down and while triple checked everything by spinning it around by hand , i noticed that when the rockers/valves are in between opening and closing the given pushrods were loose, so much so, that i could get .060 feeler gauge in between the valve tip and the rocker . the valve train should be tight all across the board no matter what position the rockers and valves are at. i was stumped. so i went and ordered a set of .060 valve lash caps and put them on and that tightened everything up. but why in the world would i need a .060 lash cap in the first place? . got it in, fired it up, broke in the cam. and no noise what-so-ever, purred like a kitten with a slight lump. i love this cam, fairly mild, with a great idle.

this engine has excellent oil pressure and runs great. i have about 30 hours of run time on it and it is a very healthy engine.

there is no metal in the oil and the oil pressure is 70 at start up and after about an hour of running it has 40 at idle.

it has slowing started to develop a tick. and the other day it was pretty loud and it is only over the #6 and #8 pistons. it almost sounds like a solid lifter motor with the valve lash out of wack. these lifters are brand new and i would hate to think a few already collapsed plus the thought of tearing into it is just disappointing.

i have played with the timing which is at about 12in/32total but has no effect on the valve train noise. im trying to be as clear as i can . any thoughts on this would be great. as usual, thanks a million guys
 
I had the same problem and had a set of bad lifters. A good set of hyd lifter are hard to find. I can't recommend because I put in Rhoads variable duration lifters with adustabler rockers.
 
What brand of cam? Were there springs recommended for the cam? I put a Comp cam (very similar in lift) in my engine and they recommended the 901-16 (I think) springs with damper. I have a slight tick with my Comp cam and after some research discovered that some of the Comp cams with their fast ramp drop allow the valves to close quicker giving a clicking sound. My car still does it, but have not noticed and problems as of yet.

Is it possible your springs don't have enough pressure?
 
Badsport said:
What brand of cam? Were there springs recommended for the cam? I put a Comp cam (very similar in lift) in my engine and they recommended the 901-16 (I think) springs with damper. I have a slight tick with my Comp cam and after some research discovered that some of the Comp cams with their fast ramp drop allow the valves to close quicker giving a clicking sound. My car still does it, but have not noticed and problems as of yet.

Is it possible your springs don't have enough pressure?
Click to expand...

this is a summit racing cam
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-1798

i spent the good part of an hour on the phone and swapping emails with the techs before i bought this cam substantiating that my stock springs would support this cam. we felt confident that factory springs are good up to a .509 lift , though i have only used a .509 in a big block with 906 heads and factory springs and it ran great for a long time. at any rate, they were definitely interested in giving me info and not trying to sell me parts so i took this advice as good. it would seem to me that with engine off, having a hydraulic valve lash just shouldnt exist.
 
Your techs should stick to things besides performance engines because they are far from correct.
First - most 360s (not all...but most) had a special spring retainer used on the exh valves that rotated the valve more during operation. They are heavy, and are not designed for performance use.
Second, there is no way factory springs will correctly control the valve motion with that cam. There's a big difference between "working" and working properly and your techs missed the boat. If you stick a peice of styrofoam in place of a block of wood on a floor jack, it will take up the same sapce and visually look the same. However if you jack up under anything it will fail as it's not designed for the job you gave it. Stock springs are no different.
You must replace the springs, and you should replace the rotators. That is so you don't break anything and so the cam provides the performance it's designed to. My impression is that if you do, you may not have a tick anymore. Although you mention it ticked in factory form in teh 'Doba so you might just have a very worn lifter bore. In which case there's not much you can do unless you want to get into buying pushrods and rockers and even then it may not go away totally.
 
Just makes me wonder why Comp and other cam manufacturers suggest using springs with a higher seat pressure, other than selling something extra, not that it would change the issue you're having though.

I would think you're gonna want to change the springs and the rotators like Moper suggested, I didn't even think about those.
 
moper said:
Your techs should stick to things besides performance engines because they are far from correct.


First - most 360s (not all...but most) had a special spring retainer used on the exh valves that rotated the valve more during operation. They are heavy, and are not designed for performance use.
Second, there is no way factory springs will correctly control the valve Although you mention it ticked in factory form in teh 'Doba so you might just have a very worn lifter bore. In which case there's not much you can do unless you want to get into buying pushrods and rockers and even then it may not go away totally.
Click to expand...

i agree that "phone techs" and those that dont have exclusive mopar small block experience can give bad info.

if a valve is fully closed, and the rockers and shafts are new, the lifters are pumped up , and the push rods are the correct length, what is creating a lash? i find it hard to believe that a 33,000 mile engine could have that much lifter bore wear. but i could be wrong.

its almost as though the base circle of the cam is too small, but this would be an issue with everyone running this cam, and i would think it would have been addressed by summit
 
Are you sure its not a header leak? mine sounded like a ticking and i just pulled the motor and the center flange on the drivers side was leaking, the gasket was all black on the bottom but it would come and go with engine temp and movement like throwing the steering wheel back and forth while driving would make the motor move and it would stop ticking
 
............U absolutely need the recommended springs....[those factory springs were only designed for a granny 2 bbl cam, regardless of milage on them]...i would guess now u will be needing a cam as the lobes will be wearing off as well as another set of lifters...with that much play in the valve train i would think u have a set of big block lifters in there.....the plunger sits .075 thou lower in them than a sb set....measure them to what u took out.............kim.....
 
oldkimmer said:
........... i would think u have a set of big block lifters in there.....the plunger sits .075 thou lower in them than a sb set....measure them to what u took out.............kim.....
Click to expand...

X2 and......................



)))check the valve installed heights(((
 
these are the lifters, they show for small and big block applications
Engine Size
5.9L/360
6.6L/400
5.6L/340
5.2L/318
4.5L/273
7.2L/440
6.3L/383

Brand
Summit Racing
Manufacturer's Part Number
SUM-HT2011
Part Type
Lifters
Product Line
Summit Racing® Hydraulic Lifters
Summit Racing Part Number
SUM-HT2011

and wouldnt there be evidence of a worn cam in the oil?

Is there truly a difference in SB and BB hydraulic lifters?????? and if so, why are they selling them as a universal lifter?
 
what is really confusing is there are no recommended springs for this cam. that was my reasoning for calling them and talking to those guys. and they said that my stocks springs work just fine (not that they really know) and what would be a good spring compatable for this cam?
 
.....It's easier to have a 1 size fits all in this mass produced world....I would still measure the plunger depth as i had that problem b4.......i measured a sb lifter against a bb lifter, both mopar performance........the lifters are the exact same in height but the plunger was way deeper in the bb set......mopar performance always had a recommended spring...kim........
 
thank you Kim.....but i am so lost~~~ Mopar performance only lists a part number for SB lifters and dont even show a PN for BB lifters. Summit shows one part number for all BB and SB engines. i have also read elsewhere that MP BB and SB lifters 70-77 are different part numbers . WTF is the deal? are they different or the same , any one know? i am about to blow a gasket. this confusion in lifters may account for the .060 lash in my valve train, but i dont want to go spend 150 bucks on new lifters if this isnt the problem. i dont have the intake off just yet
 
now o riellys shows two different part number for BB lifters, ONE of the part numbers is the same as the one for the SB
auto zone shows two different PN for each SB and BB
 
............I know they are different #s and different lifters, i did most of my purple shaft installs in the 80s and 90s........i know for sure the lifters were different back then........can u measure the old lifter u took out........kim........
 
oldkimmer said:
............I know they are different #s and different lifters, i did most of my purple shaft installs in the 80s and 90s........i know for sure the lifters were different back then........can u measure the old lifter u took out........kim........
Click to expand...

i thoroughly believe what you are saying and i thank you for your help. i just cant believe a place like summit would sell the same lifter for all SB and BB if they are different. in fact, so far, i am finding that summit is the ONLY place showing BB and SB lifters as the same part. i havent pulled my intake off yet to check them , but its looking like i may have to. i just hope the cam isnt hurt, or i will be really upset. im close to giving summit a piece of my mind but i want to be sure i know what i am talking about.
 
I just looked on Comps site and they show a different seat height for smallblock and bigblock. The difference isn't much but it is more for the bigblock.
 
Badsport said:
I just looked on Comps site and they show a different seat height for smallblock and bigblock. The difference isn't much but it is more for the bigblock.
Click to expand...

is there a way to find out how much different they are Bruce? like maybe .050 or .060 ?
i should have addressed this when i had the motor apart but i assumed summits lifters were the right ones and didnt think to second guess their info
 
73AbodEE said:
hehe Rick, those definitely look like BB lifters to me. if they have a deeper plunge, how can they sell them as SB lifters as well ? is the difference really that minimal? i have never had two side by side to measure
Click to expand...

I googled to try to find something like blueprint specs for lifters and came up dry.

Hopefully someone will have a original of each to compare, hate to see you tear it apart for nothing...
 
oldkimmer said:
with that much play in the valve train i would think u have a set of big block lifters in there.....the plunger sits .075 thou lower in them than a sb set....measure them to what u took out.............kim.....
Click to expand...
im beginning to think this may be it. but again, with this much difference , how could a lifter be universal?
 
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