3G Hemi vs LSx vs Ford Mod Motor - which is the 'best'? And which to put in mopar?

[Uhcoog1]

Where you're at now is trying to argue that the hemi is not inferior, despite conceding everything other than the heads to the LS/coyote engine.

My stance has been the same from the very beginning. The hemi head is superior to the LSx head. It has not changed, so you saying 'where you're at now" doesn't apply - it's been the same stance the entire time.

which is a rather minimal difference.

I'll take that as a concession on your part that the hemi head is indeed superior to the LSx head, even if only minimally.

As for the cost of fitment, that's not a good argument either. The most costly aspect of that valiant are the headers and that oil pan. Otherwise its pretty straight forward. LS1's stuffed into miatas/240sx's are more complicated.

It's probably cheaper to put an LSx into a Miata or 240sx or rx7 than it is to put one in a mopar A body. Why? Because someone sells the parts to do it.

Here is exactly what I said:
"It's cheaper to put a Hemi in a Mopar body vs either of the other two. If you fabricate your own swap parts, or you find 'bolt in' shelf parts, that makes this a moot point. "

To spell it out further for you:
An LSx swap into an A body will need:
-engine mounts
-oil pan
-headers
Three options for these parts:
Fabricate them yourself (time intensive, low $$)
Pay someone to Fabricate them (minimal time, high $$$$)
Find something that fits off the shelf (potentially time intensive, medium $$$, probably still cheaper than shelf hemi swap parts)

Please explain to me how the cost of the swap parts is not a factor in the cost of putting an LSx in a Mopar A body? Until someone finds or produces shelf parts that put an LSx in a mopar A body, then the swap cost (time + money) will more often than not be higher than that of putting a hemi in.

Is this your best argument for why you think the 3G hemi is not inferior??

It's the only argument that is needed. A given engine's potential is limited by the heads. Thank you for conceding the hemi heads are superior to the LSx heads.

and still be under the price of a 5.7 3G.

I know you haven't bought a 3G hemi or an LSx motor, but have you truly priced them to see what you could get each for? I'd be curious to see what you can buy each for in your area.

 

[Uhcoog1]

you may as well be arguing with a brick. I gave up with comparisons.

wasn't the initial argument specific to street/strip cars and not unlimited budget builds?

No, the start of this wasn't specific to street/strip cars.


I first posted to contend against this statement:

The new hemi can't hold a candle to the LSX for anywhere near the same money, especially not the 5.7.​

I disagree with this statement.


The $$ savings with an LSx build come with running stock bottom ends and mating them with stock heads available for other LS family motors. I agree there are some builds you can do with an LSx that are cheaper, but to say a new hemi can't hold a candle to the LSx for anywhere near the same money just isn't the truth.

If you're forging a motor and porting heads, the hemi makes more hp/ci, and the cost difference is negligible.​

I made three statements here:​

1- the LSx is cheaper with stock bottom ends and stock heads​

2- to say a hemi 'can't hold a candle to the LSx for anywhere near the same money' just isn't the truth​

3- when forging motors and porting heads, the hemi makes more hp/ci, and the cost difference is negligible.​

Your first post in response is below. Keep in mind, I only made 3 statements in my previous post, and one of them was stating the LSx was superior with a 'budget build' mentality​

Oh yeah, i forgot about everyone doing those crazy budget build new hemi swaps into everything for peanuts and making massive amounts of power..../sarcasm

Face it, the hemi is a decent modern engine, a good first try considering Mopar chose to sit on their "LA" *** while ford/chevy evolved their engines. So while its decent, its sub-par to the LS and now the 5.0 coyote engines.​

So which of my statements were you arguing against? I only made two statements that were not pro-LSx:

a- to say a hemi 'can't hold a candle to the LSx for anywhere near the same money' just isn't the truth​

b- when forging motors and porting heads, the hemi makes more hp/ci, and the cost difference is negligible.​

​

So are you saying the hemi can't hold a candle to an LSx for anywhere near the same money? Or that forged hemi's with ported heads are sub-par to the LSx? Those are the only two statements I made, mind you. Your post was obviously directed at me, so I had to assume you were arguing against one of those two points.

That "sub par" hemi won the engine masters 2011 with a 03-08 5.7 block and 03-08 5.7 heads. The platform they won with was mopar's first go at it, and it's still enough to build an engine masters winner. So tell me how that is sub-par? It beat the "evolved" ford/chevy offerings. And didn't even use the newer hemi head offerings. (I have to say I am very impressed with the coyote- talk about a game changer! I would not be surprised if a coyote won this year).

If you will re-read my earlier posts, I think the LSx is a great motor and a great platform. But, the hemi has a superior head, and has more potential because of it. I also had no problem stating that certain build levels can be done cheaper with an LSx vs a Hemi, but I can't say that LSx builds are cheaper across the board, because that's just not true. Forged motor builds will be about the same price.

As stated before, the advantage the LSx has in the budget build category is stock short blocks and stock heads. That's cheaper than a hemi, and Arguably has a stronger bottom end.

The failure of the new hemi is Mopar's inability to put it in anything under 4500 pounds.
​

​

All these posts were made in 2012. This was the 'start' of it.


​

 

[Uhcoog1]

if i had the cash i would buy this set up in a heartbeat.

http://www.jegs.com/p/Chevrolet-Per...-System/2853351/10002/-1?itemPerPage=90&pno=1


new engine/trans. computers and harnesses and a warranty .

That's an impressive package to say the least. I can't believe they're offering a 50k mile warranty on it. And to think- the swap parts given you already own an alterktion would be quite cheap.

I was actually pricing out a 5.0 coyote swap the other day after riding in my instructors '97 cobra bondourant car with a 5.0 coyote swap. 450 rwhp give or take. That sucker flew around Texas World Speedway with R compound tires. Course, he's been racing for a few dozen years as well.


For what I do, (Road Racing), These are my top motor choices from each of the three:
6.1 hemi built to 392 (3.795 stroke, 4.055" bore)
5.0 coyote motor - (3.63"x3.65")
LS7 motor - 4.125" bore, 4.00" stroke

 

[mikedevore]

I'm a purist myself & prefer the correct mfg engine to go in the correct mfg car/truck.

The Gen3 HEMI suffers from a lack of aftermarket support & popularity.
To say it doesn't have potential is a broad statement.
There are examples of fast Gen3's, though limited.

The GM & Ford OEM has given great support to the aftermarket.
Chrysler has not. It's that simple.

The Gen 3 in it's OEM form, seems to outperform all other makes, the Challenger being the exception.
The SRT Challenger has been like bringing a very sharp knife to a gun fight.
That should be fixed when the "Hell Cat" HEMI is released.

I'll put my Wife's 300C up against a SS Impala or Eco-Boost Taurus any day.
I'll put my kids HEMI RAM 1500 up against a Silverado 5.3 or F150 5.0 any day.

I still can't understand why the GM guys are so happy that when their LS engine blows up, that they brag about going to the salvage to get a replacement for cheap.
It would seem to me, that after the 3rd or 4th time, the price advantage wears off.

I agree with a previous post, it depends on the build. You have to compare apples to apple.
Everytime that has been done before by various magazines, the MoPar seems to come out on top.

This friend of mine is a diehard Chevy guy. He also owns a machine shop.
He builds small block dirt track engines from all 3 brands.
No matter what, the MoPar is always 25-30 horsepower better when dynoed than the Chev or Ford.

MoPar or No Car!

 

[abodyjoe]

And with the alter-k I could use a cheap off the shelf header.

That's an impressive package to say the least. I can't believe they're offering a 50k mile warranty on it. And to think- the swap parts given you already own an alterktion would be quite cheap.

I was actually pricing out a 5.0 coyote swap the other day after riding in my instructors '97 cobra bondourant car with a 5.0 coyote swap. 450 rwhp give or take. That sucker flew around Texas World Speedway with R compound tires. Course, he's been racing for a few dozen years as well.


For what I do, (Road Racing), These are my top motor choices from each of the three:
6.1 hemi built to 392 (3.795 stroke, 4.055" bore)
5.0 coyote motor - (3.63"x3.65")
LS7 motor - 4.125" bore, 4.00" stroke

 

[magnumdust]

My stance has been the same from the very beginning. The hemi head is superior to the LSx head. It has not changed, so you saying 'where you're at now" doesn't apply - it's been the same stance the entire time.



I'll take that as a concession on your part that the hemi head is indeed superior to the LSx head, even if only minimally.



It's probably cheaper to put an LSx into a Miata or 240sx or rx7 than it is to put one in a mopar A body. Why? Because someone sells the parts to do it.

Here is exactly what I said:
"It's cheaper to put a Hemi in a Mopar body vs either of the other two. If you fabricate your own swap parts, or you find 'bolt in' shelf parts, that makes this a moot point. "

To spell it out further for you:
An LSx swap into an A body will need:
-engine mounts
-oil pan
-headers
Three options for these parts:
Fabricate them yourself (time intensive, low $$)
Pay someone to Fabricate them (minimal time, high $$$$)
Find something that fits off the shelf (potentially time intensive, medium $$$, probably still cheaper than shelf hemi swap parts)

Please explain to me how the cost of the swap parts is not a factor in the cost of putting an LSx in a Mopar A body? Until someone finds or produces shelf parts that put an LSx in a mopar A body, then the swap cost (time + money) will more often than not be higher than that of putting a hemi in.



It's the only argument that is needed. A given engine's potential is limited by the heads. Thank you for conceding the hemi heads are superior to the LSx heads.





I know you haven't bought a 3G hemi or an LSx motor, but have you truly priced them to see what you could get each for? I'd be curious to see what you can buy each for in your area.

Ugh this is just taxing now. You're delusional, deflecting, and uninterested in learning anything.

First off, i'll address the post directly above this one: Go find LXguy and spew your nonsense. You know as well as i do that i made it very clear that my view was specifically about street/strip cars without built engines. Bringing up LXguy just shows you're being intellectually dishonest to avoid facing the fact that you're wrong.

NOT useless engine master's dyno queen engines that if ever put into a car, would have such crap drivability that you would trailer the car everywhere. That is as pointless as the guy who brought up NHRA using hemis. Who cares? Not anyone who wants their car to work on a daily basis.

Arguing built engines is a waste of time. For example, the pos honda D16 series engine. Best case scenario they made 165hp(maybe?), and here is one making 700hp. http://dsportmag.com/browse/featured-article/single-cam-slammer-700hp-civic


For fabrication: Did you look at the build here?? I studied those pictures pretty close. The oil pan is not terribly difficult. Spend time with a measuring tape and rotating the steering and then you'd have a shop spend an hour or two moving the sump. Not an insane task.

Engine mounts? Again, they arent excessively complex pieces. Time mocking up and you could get away with tack welding some mock up engine mounts and have a welding shop either fully weld them or make strong ones(depending upon your ability)

We're talking about 1-2k worth of labor. Did YOU price miata/240sx swap parts? I'm gonna bet no. So here you go:
NB miata(99-04?) is $3,850.00 for a full swap kit.
1st gen 240sx: $2,850.00 for a swap kit

So what we're left as is headers. Which price wise is still up in the air. The OP of that thread may find something that will work or he may have to break the bank on custom headers.

However given the extremely cheap starting price of the hemi, there is a very good chance that he would come out around the same price as someone doing a new hemi, but with a much much much better engine. After all, headers are no joy with a new hemi either. If you want power steering you have to spend 600 bucks on TTi's and hope they fit your car.


And i'll humor you on engine prices. I have priced both engines. Once for my duster before i did the 5.9 magnum swap, and once for an LS when i was thinking of dumping the 5cyl out of my truck.

Prices from this morning on car-part.com(You're more than welcome to double check this if you don't believe me. Put in Ca, zip of 95687)

All prices are based on "A" class engines. However for the chevies i stopped at the A prices just above the broken engine prices. As there are a few A's below broken engine prices which sets off my BS meter. This was not an issue with the hemi.
2003 4.8:
Cheapest 4.8: $770.24 with 105k.

Highest price: $1650 with 88k on the clock

2003 5.3:
Cheapest: $900 with 106k

Most expensive: 1400 with 110k

2003 5.7 hemi:
Cheapest hemi $1600 with 101k on the clock.

Most expensive: $2250 with 106k.

A core hemi would be 750-900 bucks. Possibily 400 if "engine block" is a long block. That's not terribly clear on the site.

 

[magnumdust]

I'm a purist myself & prefer the correct mfg engine to go in the correct mfg car/truck.

The Gen3 HEMI suffers from a lack of aftermarket support & popularity.
To say it doesn't have potential is a broad statement.
There are examples of fast Gen3's, though limited.

The GM & Ford OEM has given great support to the aftermarket.
Chrysler has not. It's that simple.

The Gen 3 in it's OEM form, seems to outperform all other makes, the Challenger being the exception.
The SRT Challenger has been like bringing a very sharp knife to a gun fight.
That should be fixed when the "Hell Cat" HEMI is released.

I'll put my Wife's 300C up against a SS Impala or Eco-Boost Taurus any day.
I'll put my kids HEMI RAM 1500 up against a Silverado 5.3 or F150 5.0 any day.

I still can't understand why the GM guys are so happy that when their LS engine blows up, that they brag about going to the salvage to get a replacement for cheap.
It would seem to me, that after the 3rd or 4th time, the price advantage wears off.

I agree with a previous post, it depends on the build. You have to compare apples to apple.
Everytime that has been done before by various magazines, the MoPar seems to come out on top.

This friend of mine is a diehard Chevy guy. He also owns a machine shop.
He builds small block dirt track engines from all 3 brands.
No matter what, the MoPar is always 25-30 horsepower better when dynoed than the Chev or Ford.

MoPar or No Car!

Who says the LS engines "blow up"? The reason people brag about the cheap salvage yard is because chevy made so many of them that they are abundant in the yards. If Dodge could ever crack the sales numbers of ford or chevy, a lot of this argument would be moot.(aside from the hemi needing everything other than heads to be competitive in a street/strip build)

Think of how many chevy service trucks there are? When my job used chevy's, they would trade a few thousand service trucks every two years. And typically those work trucks have their interiors beat so bad in two years that the trucks go right to the recycler.(80k in two years is remarkably hard on a vehicle)

 

[Uhcoog1]

Ugh this is just taxing now. You're delusional, deflecting, and uninterested in learning anything.

You asked a question, and I answered it. I went back to the beginning of the disagreement and posted the exact things said, by you and me. Your statements were never conditional to 'only street/strip budget builds that are restricted to stock long blocks'. If you had made conditional statements as such, then I would have left it alone.

There's nothing delusional or deflecting in that.

 

[Michaeluser]

I have had them all and hands down the Ford coyote, revs fast and high and can pull 30mpg on the highway.
LS and Hemi seem to have similar performance but the Hemi always seems to use way more fuel.

2nd that statement.

 

[Uhcoog1]

Alright, so correct me if I'm wrong here:

LSx swap, by your numbers:
$1000-$2000 in labor for mounts and oil pan modifications
$250 shelf headers or ~$1500 custom headers (fair estimate?)
Guesstimate: $1250 to $2250 for manual steering and shelf headers
$2750-$3750 with power steering and custom headers
add in cost of motor ($770-$1400)
GRAND TOTAL: $2020-$3650 with manual steering, $3520-$4150 with power steering

Hemi swap, with shelf parts:
$150-$250 engine mounts, depending on k member
~$50 engine oil block off plate
~$100 remote oil cooler set-up
$750 headers for manual steering or borgeson box
optional: $850 borgeson box
Total: $1050 with manual steering, or $1900 with borgeson power steering
add in cost of motor ($1600-$2250)
GRAND TOTAL: $2650-$3300 with manual steering, or $3500-$4150 with power steering

However given the extremely cheap starting price of the LSx, there is a very good chance that he would come out around the same price as someone doing a new hemi, but with a much much much better engine. After all, headers are no joy with a new hemi either. If you want power steering you have to spend 600 bucks on TTi's and hope they fit your car.

Fixed it for you.

Yes, you are right, they're almost the same price to swap using those prices from carpart.com. Also, TTI's don't fit with factory power steering. To my knowledge, I'm the only one who's made a set to fit with the factory power steering. Those headers are now sitting on my shelf (swapped to TTI's and a borgeson PS box when I put in the current 6.1).

The 'much much better engine' statement- my answer is still the same - it depends on what you're going to do with it. Since you only want to discuss stock short block motors, I'll keep it to that.
Stock short block:
NA? Advantage hemi (5.7 vs 5.3/4.8 - tough to make up for the displacement and head difference)
Boost? Hemi for under 8 psi, LSx past 8 psi
Nitrous? Hemi for under 150 shot, LSx past that.

Dou you disagree with the last 3 lines?

 

[Uhcoog1]

Forgot Hemi pan and pickup. $400

 

[mikedevore]

Who says the LS engines "blow up"? The reason people brag about the cheap salvage yard is because chevy made so many of them that they are abundant in the yards. If Dodge could ever crack the sales numbers of ford or chevy, a lot of this argument would be moot.(aside from the hemi needing everything other than heads to be competitive in a street/strip build)

Think of how many chevy service trucks there are? When my job used chevy's, they would trade a few thousand service trucks every two years. And typically those work trucks have their interiors beat so bad in two years that the trucks go right to the recycler.(80k in two years is remarkably hard on a vehicle)

Sales numbers? RAM outsold Silverado last month by almost 600 units.
This is against a total new Silverado.
So I guess Dodge has cracked the sales number barrier.

 

[wardy]

Am I the only one here who doesn't build a car based on fuel economy? If I was worries about that I'd be throwing a hybrid engine in mine!

I'm going hemi in my valiant, for a few reasons

1. LSX engines still pull big money down here in aus, even a crappy alloy block LS1 and gearbox will run you up to $2k plus

1. The hemi's are pulling around $7500 for a complete long block here (so your $1500 is looking pretty cheap right?) so I have sourced one from the US for under $2k shipped.

3. Modular ford would be cool, but are way to big and way too expensive.
You guys don't know how good you have it with second hand engines! I'm considering bringing another 10 or so in to sell on!

4. I want to keep mine all mopar, a new gen swap is very rare here, let alone a 1000hp turbocharged one I like to stand out from the crowd and I think I'll achieve that


I'm all for engine conversions of any kinds, I've cross bred a heap of previous cars I've built, it would be a boring old world if everyone just did the same thing

 

[Cowboy]

The LS is a good engine, as is the Ford Modular. The Hemi? Well in my opinion it can go drop a valve seat.

It's all up to whoever is building the car, what they think is the best, and which brand they trust more.

The DOHC Ford is simply to wide to fit into a stock A body, I looked into it originally before settling on a 5.0 efi for my Duster.

I just don't see what's so bad about a different brand engine in Chrysler car? It's a double standard here anyway. If it was a Hemi in a '57 Bel Air or a T Bucket I bet no one here would criticize it.

I put my 5.0 and 4 speed in for less money than a 318 swap minus a transmission. Haven't had any issues with the engine or drivetrain since. Unlike the slant 6 that needed attention almost every weekend. I'm getting great mileage and it's as reliable as can be. The only trouble I have comes from Mopar guys who just want to argue about it.

People get so worked up over a hunk of metal. It's just a car, and usually someone else's for that matter. There are thousands of cookie cutter Darts, Dusters, Valiants, and Barracudas out there it doesn't hurt to cut one up and make it different. I put mine under the torch because it was nothing special, no one was going to really miss a non numbers matching slant six auto '74 Gold Duster. Now its no longer a Plymouth, nor a Ford, or Chevy. It is simply my car.

It's all in what you like. Just build what you want and don't bash other people for doing the same.

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks, Rusty

 

[MuuMuu101]

The LS is a good engine, as is the Ford Modular. The Hemi? Well in my opinion it can go drop a valve seat.

It's all up to whoever is building the car, what they think is the best, and which brand they trust more.

The DOHC Ford is simply to wide to fit into a stock A body, I looked into it originally before settling on a 5.0 efi for my Duster.

I just don't see what's so bad about a different brand engine in Chrysler car? It's a double standard here anyway. If it was a Hemi in a '57 Bel Air or a T Bucket I bet no one here would criticize it.

I put my 5.0 and 4 speed in for less money than a 318 swap minus a transmission. Haven't had any issues with the engine or drivetrain since. Unlike the slant 6 that needed attention almost every weekend. I'm getting great mileage and it's as reliable as can be. The only trouble I have comes from Mopar guys who just want to argue about it.

People get so worked up over a hunk of metal. It's just a car, and usually someone else's for that matter. There are thousands of cookie cutter Darts, Dusters, Valiants, and Barracudas out there it doesn't hurt to cut one up and make it different. I put mine under the torch because it was nothing special, no one was going to really miss a non numbers matching slant six auto '74 Gold Duster. Now its no longer a Plymouth, nor a Ford, or Chevy. It is simply my car.



People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks, Rusty

You see, I have weird tastes. Seeing a Gen 1 or 2 Hemi in another brand car does interest me. There's a '56 T-bird with one at our local cruises. But for some reason if I saw a Gen 3 Hemi in another car (primarily in the big 3) I'd wonder why... It wouldn't fit right with me. And that would be the same if the LS and the Ford engine were in a different brand car. However, if someone does have one of those "odd" swaps, I wouldn't stone him/her for it. It is their car at the end of the day and if that's what they want, that's what they get. I'm not going to throw money at them.

 

[/6 Matt]

The LS is a good engine, as is the Ford Modular. The Hemi? Well in my opinion it can go drop a valve seat.

It's all up to whoever is building the car, what they think is the best, and which brand they trust more.

The DOHC Ford is simply to wide to fit into a stock A body, I looked into it originally before settling on a 5.0 efi for my Duster.

I just don't see what's so bad about a different brand engine in Chrysler car? It's a double standard here anyway. If it was a Hemi in a '57 Bel Air or a T Bucket I bet no one here would criticize it.

I put my 5.0 and 4 speed in for less money than a 318 swap minus a transmission. Haven't had any issues with the engine or drivetrain since. Unlike the slant 6 that needed attention almost every weekend. I'm getting great mileage and it's as reliable as can be. The only trouble I have comes from Mopar guys who just want to argue about it.

People get so worked up over a hunk of metal. It's just a car, and usually someone else's for that matter. There are thousands of cookie cutter Darts, Dusters, Valiants, and Barracudas out there it doesn't hurt to cut one up and make it different. I put mine under the torch because it was nothing special, no one was going to really miss a non numbers matching slant six auto '74 Gold Duster. Now its no longer a Plymouth, nor a Ford, or Chevy. It is simply my car.



People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks, Rusty

Trust me, your engine choice has little to do with why folks here don't like you.

And now I'm going back to simply ignoring things you post since you love to stir trouble.

 

[/6 Matt]

My opinion, Ls is superior. Would I put it in a mopar no. Do I care if anyone else does? No.

 

[95teetee]

if i had the cash i would buy this set up in a heartbeat.

http://www.jegs.com/p/Chevrolet-Per...-System/2853351/10002/-1?itemPerPage=90&pno=1


new engine/trans. computers and harnesses and a warranty .

good choice.

probably better than the engine that's in your 'stang now

:angel9:

I put my 5.0 and 4 speed in for less money than a 318 swap minus a transmission. Haven't had any issues with the engine or drivetrain since. Unlike the slant 6 that needed attention almost every weekend. I'm getting great mileage and it's as reliable as can be. The only trouble I have comes from Mopar guys who just want to argue about it.

I have no problem with it (but then, you're not a complete dillhole about it like guys who want to put chevy motors in their mopars seem to be. Also, I have no problem with mustangs lol)

 

[abodyjoe]

good choice.

probably better than the engine that's in your 'stang now

:angel9:

27 years of technology i hope its better..

 

[magnumdust]

Alright, so correct me if I'm wrong here:

LSx swap, by your numbers:
$1000-$2000 in labor for mounts and oil pan modifications
$250 shelf headers or ~$1500 custom headers (fair estimate?)
Guesstimate: $1250 to $2250 for manual steering and shelf headers
$2750-$3750 with power steering and custom headers
add in cost of motor ($770-$1400)
GRAND TOTAL: $2020-$3650 with manual steering, $3520-$4150 with power steering

Hemi swap, with shelf parts:
$150-$250 engine mounts, depending on k member
~$50 engine oil block off plate
~$100 remote oil cooler set-up
$750 headers for manual steering or borgeson box
optional: $850 borgeson box
Total: $1050 with manual steering, or $1900 with borgeson power steering
add in cost of motor ($1600-$2250)
GRAND TOTAL: $2650-$3300 with manual steering, or $3500-$4150 with power steering



Fixed it for you.

Yes, you are right, they're almost the same price to swap using those prices from carpart.com. Also, TTI's don't fit with factory power steering. To my knowledge, I'm the only one who's made a set to fit with the factory power steering. Those headers are now sitting on my shelf (swapped to TTI's and a borgeson PS box when I put in the current 6.1).

The 'much much better engine' statement- my answer is still the same - it depends on what you're going to do with it. Since you only want to discuss stock short block motors, I'll keep it to that.
Stock short block:
NA? Advantage hemi (5.7 vs 5.3/4.8 - tough to make up for the displacement and head difference)
Boost? Hemi for under 8 psi, LSx past 8 psi
Nitrous? Hemi for under 150 shot, LSx past that.

Dou you disagree with the last 3 lines?

The hemi loses on all fronts here. The 5.7 is a dog. For all you claim, it makes anywhere from 280-300whp. For all your boasting about displacement and headsize, thats pretty much stuck power for the vastly superior 5.3 LSx

You have to make all these considerations because the internals on the hemi are crap and can't handle any real power without a fully built engine.

But hey its certainly your choice keep living in denial and point to those undrivable engine masters dyno engines while spending a fortune to build inferior engines simply to stay all mopar, or half mercedes, or half fiat, whoever may own dodge next.

 

[magnumdust]

Sales numbers? RAM outsold Silverado last month by almost 600 units.
This is against a total new Silverado.
So I guess Dodge has cracked the sales number barrier.

is that a shock though? Have you seen the new silverado. wtf were they thinking.

That said, prior to the recent ugly sticked silverado, dodge could not compete with ford/chevy in the truck world.

 

[Uhcoog1]

The 'much much better engine' statement- my answer is still the same - it depends on what you're going to do with it. Since you only want to discuss stock short block motors, I'll keep it to that.
Stock short block:
NA? Advantage hemi (5.7 vs 5.3/4.8 - tough to make up for the displacement and head difference)
Boost? Hemi for under 8 psi, LSx past 8 psi
Nitrous? Hemi for under 150 shot, LSx past that.

Do you disagree with the last 3 lines?

The hemi loses on all fronts here.

To clarify, in your opinion, the 5.7 hemi is behind the 5.3/4.8 in all categories listed above? Yes or no.

 

[DionR]

I know that price is always an issue, but seems to me the question was more of a technical question and I read it as more of a "regardless of price" kind of a question, i.e. which motor is the best design.

FWIW my opinion is, the Coyote is probably the most advanced of the three. Hard to beat multiple cams and the advantages that cam phasing adds to that, on top of 4 valves per cylinder (funny, it's about the heads again). Heck, as I understand it, Ford even engineered the oil system for horsepower. At the same time, the physical size of the motor is a real detractor, and the high rpm nature plus the lack of cubic inches makes it feel a little "mundane" around town (at least in my experience while riding in a buddy's '13 GT). Just didn't seem like it had much low end torque. My brother just got done building a trick '55 Vicki with a crate Coyote for a guy and will be taking to all kinds of shows this summer, and he doesn't drive anything softly, so I should have another comparison by the end of the summer.

I think the 3G Hemi heads give that motor a technical advantage over the LS, but it loses out on the size.

Only advantage the LS has (if you ignore costs) is it is smaller and easier to fit. If I were to move over to an E36 BMW, I would probably look really hard at putting an LS motor in it.

I wouldn't put an LS in a Mopar. Call me a purist if you will, but I don't have issues with other parts (R154 transmission, Supra rear brakes, BMW E30 Sport Seats, etc.), but the motor is a non-negotiable.

On a side note, I don't believe Mopar sat on their LA laurels for years while GM developed the LS. The Viper V10 is a direct evolution of the LA and now makes 640 hp and 600 ft/lbs, I just wish Mopar had split the line and built a V8 version, too. A 6.7L V8 version would have made over 512 hp and 480 ft/lbs, right in line with the LS7 (505/470). But they didn't and it makes a certain amount of sense since Mopar didn't have a car to put it in, and it would have been a competitor to the Viper if they had.

Biggest problem the 3G Hemi has is in the ECU. Chrysler has always been too tight with their code, so everything has taken so much longer to develop from the aftermarket.

 

[DionR]

If a high mileage 5.7 hemi didn't run you $1500+, make 280-300rwhp N/A...

I don't pretend to be any kind of an expert on the LS motors, and maybe I am just late to the game, but I'm not clear on why this is an issue.

I've got a copy of a 1998 magazine article where they tested several cars on a chassis dyno and only got 293 hp for the '98 Trans Am and 286 for '98 Corvette ("Who's Jivin' Who", Hot Rod Magazine, May 1998 issue). The Corvette was rated at 345 hp but made 285 rwhp, so it doesn't seem unreasonable that a 3G 5.7 rated at 345 hp making 280-300 rwhp is fine, and I don't see how that makes it a dog.

And the LS1's look to be running $3500-$4500 on car-part.com. Considerably more than a $1500 Hemi.

I know you can buy a 5.3 and cam it up to make 400 hp for cheap, but a stock 5.3 wont make the same power as a stock 5.7 Hemi. But just because you can buy a motor with enough money left over to put a cam in it doesn't make it the best motor, it just means that GM did a better job of glutting the market so the parts are cheap.

 

[DionR]

Where you're at now is trying to argue that the hemi is not inferior, despite conceding everything other than the heads to the LS/coyote engine.

The hemi head is superior to the LSx head.

Technically, the Hemi head is superior to a wedge head, and a 4 valve head is really a hemi head, too. A hemi style head has the shortest path in and out of the cylinder and isn't hampered by having the valves shrouded by the cylinder wall. Typically a wedge head has twist to the port, and even when it doesn't, it is always going to be close to the cylinder bore.

Doesn't mean that a wedge head can't be made to perform but you have to work against some laws of physics to do it. Kind of like drag racing a FWD car, it can be done, but it requires extra effort to overcome some inherent disadvantages.

BTW, the traditional hemispherical combustion chamber is much less efficient than a wedge combustion chamber. So they both have their pluses and minuses.