3G Hemi vs LSx vs Ford Mod Motor - which is the 'best'? And which to put in mopar?

[DionR]

The hemi loses on all fronts here. The 5.7 is a dog. For all you claim, it makes anywhere from 280-300whp. For all your boasting about displacement and headsize, thats pretty much stuck power for the vastly superior 5.3 LSx

Why? A 5.3 without a cam isn't going to make 280-300rwhp. And while I know you can put a cam in it and maybe save money over the Hemi, why does that make it a superior motor? Because everyone has one?

Cheap doesn't necessarily mean better, just means easier (if you only have to do it once).

You have to make all these considerations because the internals on the hemi are crap and can't handle any real power without a fully built engine.

What are the issues? Sorry, I know I'm asking you to regurgitate stuff from earlier posts, but they aren't here to read.

 

[Uhcoog1]

Well spoken DionR. Very knowledgable posts

 

[Uhcoog1]

FWIW my opinion is, the Coyote is probably the most advanced of the three. Hard to beat multiple cams and the advantages that cam phasing adds to that, on top of 4 valves per cylinder (funny, it's about the heads again). Heck, as I understand it, Ford even engineered the oil system for horsepower. At the same time, the physical size of the motor is a real detractor, and the high rpm nature plus the lack of cubic inches makes it feel a little "mundane" around town (at least in my experience while riding in a buddy's '13 GT). Just didn't seem like it had much low end torque. My brother just got done building a trick '55 Vicki with a crate Coyote for a guy and will be taking to all kinds of shows this summer, and he doesn't drive anything softly, so I should have another comparison by the end of the summer.

I think the 3G Hemi heads give that motor a technical advantage over the LS, but it loses out on the size.

Only advantage the LS has (if you ignore costs) is it is smaller and easier to fit. If I were to move over to an E36 BMW, I would probably look really hard at putting an LS motor in it.

Last weekend of March I ran the Texas world speedway mustang HPDE. My instructors car was a 97 bondourant cobra with a 5.0 coyote motor (the orange latemodelrestoration.com car). That 5.0 is a fantastic road race motor! 440+ rwhp and 7500+ rpm all day. Wow.

My January instructor drives an ls7 BMW. Will definitely get a ride with him next time out. Love that LSx/BMW combo. He is one of the fastest on the track, period (barely behind a well sorted ACR viper)

 

[67autocross]

Alright, so correct me if I'm wrong here:

LSx swap, by your numbers:
$1000-$2000 in labor for mounts and oil pan modifications
$250 shelf headers or ~$1500 custom headers (fair estimate?)
Guesstimate: $1250 to $2250 for manual steering and shelf headers
$2750-$3750 with power steering and custom headers
add in cost of motor ($770-$1400)
GRAND TOTAL: $2020-$3650 with manual steering, $3520-$4150 with power steering

Hemi swap, with shelf parts:
$150-$250 engine mounts, depending on k member
~$50 engine oil block off plate
~$100 remote oil cooler set-up
$750 headers for manual steering or borgeson box
optional: $850 borgeson box
Total: $1050 with manual steering, or $1900 with borgeson power steering
add in cost of motor ($1600-$2250)
GRAND TOTAL: $2650-$3300 with manual steering, or $3500-$4150 with power steering



Fixed it for you.

Yes, you are right, they're almost the same price to swap using those prices from carpart.com. Also, TTI's don't fit with factory power steering. To my knowledge, I'm the only one who's made a set to fit with the factory power steering. Those headers are now sitting on my shelf (swapped to TTI's and a borgeson PS box when I put in the current 6.1).

The 'much much better engine' statement- my answer is still the same - it depends on what you're going to do with it. Since you only want to discuss stock short block motors, I'll keep it to that.
Stock short block:
NA? Advantage hemi (5.7 vs 5.3/4.8 - tough to make up for the displacement and head difference)
Boost? Hemi for under 8 psi, LSx past 8 psi
Nitrous? Hemi for under 150 shot, LSx past that.

Dou you disagree with the last 3 lines?

I will jump in here on the cost question,a few years ago I was building a pro-touring car, I priced out the build with a 6.1 Hemi 425hp or the LS3 hot cam with I think 420hp. By the time it was priced I think it was around $5000 more to put the Hemi in the car. The engine management system and aftermarket bell housing needed to adapt the transmission, TTI headers cost a lot more than the ones for the LS, the front accessory package was more, the motor mounts cost more ect.
This shop had also done both engines swaps in other cars a few months before I priced mine out so they had a good idea what it took to do either install.

 

[Uhcoog1]

I will jump in here on the cost question,a few years ago I was building a pro-touring car, I priced out the build with a 6.1 Hemi 425hp or the LS3 hot cam with I think 420hp. By the time it was priced I think it was around $5000 more to put the Hemi in the car. The engine management system and aftermarket bell housing needed to adapt the transmission, TTI headers cost a lot more than the ones for the LS, the front accessory package was more, the motor mounts cost more ect.
This shop had also done both engines swaps in other cars a few months before I priced mine out so they had a good idea what it took to do either install.

What kind of car?

 

[67autocross]

What kind of car?

Don't try to get me ridiculed....

 

[Uhcoog1]

Don't try to get me ridiculed....

Lol not my intention.

If you're saying it's cheaper to put an LSx in a Chevy than to put a Hemi into a Mopar, I agree (not $5000 worth in my experience, though). If you're saying LSx in a Mopar vs Hemi in mopar- I'm surprised. Which is it? Or was this a different chassis entirely?

EDIT:

did you go with shelf headers? Make your own mounts? Found a post from other thread that answered the above questions.

 

[67autocross]

Here is a look at how well it fits.

This is not a photo of my car so there is no need for the forum members to send me hate mail.

 

[magnumdust]

Why? A 5.3 without a cam isn't going to make 280-300rwhp. And while I know you can put a cam in it and maybe save money over the Hemi, why does that make it a superior motor? Because everyone has one?

Cheap doesn't necessarily mean better, just means easier (if you only have to do it once).



What are the issues? Sorry, I know I'm asking you to regurgitate stuff from earlier posts, but they aren't here to read.

Yes it does make it a superior swap engine. The reason everyone does them is because the stock internals can handle an absurd amount of power for the price you pay. The stock hemis start to break up around 500ish hp before you have to spend a good bit of money for a forged engine.

As i've said earlier, full out engine builds really mean nothing. Anything can be made into a fire breathing monster with enough coin applied.

As for the dyno numbers:
http://www.truckinweb.com/tech/1208tr_5_3l_bow_tie_builds_mild_to_wild/

Just adjust for a 20% substraction. The base puts that around 290hp.(yes it has headers, but so would most any swapped LS or hemi.

 

[DionR]

Yes it does make it a superior swap engine.

It only makes it superior in a cost sense. I know cost is a huge factor, but from a purely technical stand point, it kind of like comparing the color of the block.

As for the dyno numbers:
http://www.truckinweb.com/tech/1208tr_5_3l_bow_tie_builds_mild_to_wild/

Just adjust for a 20% substraction. The base puts that around 290hp.(yes it has headers, but so would most any swapped LS or hemi.

Funny, I saw that same article today. It also has an aftermarket TB, Fast management and no accessories. Not really a very good example.

I did find a guy that was complaining that his 5.3 only made 230-240 rwhp on a dyno, though. That seems more like a real world example. And the example I was thinking of was a factory rating which meant no headers.

And I think your 500 hp rating is a little low for the factory hemi shortblock.

 

[magnumdust]

It only makes it superior in a cost sense. I know cost is a huge factor, but from a purely technical stand point, it kind of like comparing the color of the block.



Funny, I saw that same article today. It also has an aftermarket TB, Fast management and no accessories. Not really a very good example.

I did find a guy that was complaining that his 5.3 only made 230-240 rwhp on a dyno, though. That seems more like a real world example. And the example I was thinking of was a factory rating which meant no headers.

And I think your 500 hp rating is a little low for the factory hemi shortblock.

well in the real world cost vs. performance has to be considered. Thats why its funny in this argument people want to bring up engine masters where money is no object.

Why build a hemi if an LS can do it for a lot less?

 

[wardy]

Intensions for the car come into play massively in this subject..

Plan to keep it unopened, use the oem ecu and re use as many factory components as possible.. LS wins hands down.

Full blown build, internals, camshaft/springs, aftermarket electrics etc etc I'd use a hemi personally.

Initial cost of the engine doesn't bother me, I'd happily pay the extra for the engine I WANT.

Alloy block LS engines still sell for $2k plus down here.. So my hemi for $1500 shipped isn't such a bad deal

 

[moparlover]

well in the real world cost vs. performance has to be considered. Thats why its funny in this argument people want to bring up engine masters where money is no object.

Why build a hemi if an LS can do it for a lot less?

more absurd lines of thinking. so if we stick with "this argument" no engine masters allowed, a stock rebuilt 360 with a cost of $800 and no special installation parts makes that the winner hands down. cost vs performance.

but that's not the real world, people want lots of performance. also in the real world if someone owns a mustang they will want to keep it ford. if they own a nova they would want to keep it chevy. if they own a duster they would want to keep it plymouth. ;)

so real world people want as much performance as possible and like to keep it in the family. that's why most don't spend extra $$$ to swap to a different brand engine.

most stick with an engine that fits right in, or if they do a swap they go for a swap that doesn't cost thousands. (Schumacher mods). Some will go for the thousands if they want big block / gen2 / newgen / lsx or whatever. but 99% don't want to spend thousands to swap brands of engines.

 

[Uhcoog1]

Here is a look at how well it fits.

This is not a photo of my car so there is no need for the forum members to send me hate mail.

She fits great! Way more spacious vs a Hemi. I would tend to agree with you that when starting with a tubular k member, the LSx swap will be cheaper. Let me know how yours progresses!

 

[Uhcoog1]

The 'much much better engine' statement- my answer is still the same - it depends on what you're going to do with it. Since you only want to discuss stock short block motors, I'll keep it to that.
Stock short block:
NA? Advantage hemi (5.7 vs 5.3/4.8 - tough to make up for the displacement and head difference)
Boost? Hemi for under 8 psi, LSx past 8 psi
Nitrous? Hemi for under 150 shot, LSx past that.

Do you disagree with the last 3 lines?

The hemi loses on all fronts here.

To clarify, in your opinion, the 5.7 hemi is behind the 5.3/4.8 in all categories listed above? Yes or no.

I'll take it from your lack of response that your stance hasn't changed, and you do in fact stand behind the 5.3/4.8 is superior to the 5.7 Hemi on all fronts.

That is 100% false

You have convinced me one of the four must be true based on your stance:
1. You've known from the beginning you were wrong, but just wanted to argue anyway.
2. You are unwilling to admit you were wrong
3. You lack the knowledge to understand what makes a motor 'better' for a particular application.
4. You don't know you shouldn't make all encompassing and unconditional statements in a debate, as hardly anything is truly black and white.

I'm going to assume its reason #1. Or are you going to keep arguing and prove up one of the others?

Admit the Hemi has some advantages over the LSx and I'll let you off the hook.

 

[boosted]

I say put the LS motor in it and enjoy a long enjoyable life driving the car. The last time i looked at the site name it said For A bodies only.. No where was a mention of the motor..

Oh and my Buick is considered a GM a body...

 

[67autocross]

She fits great! Way more spacious vs a Hemi. I would tend to agree with you that when starting with a tubular k member, the LSx swap will be cheaper. Let me know how yours progresses!

Bill at RMS even makes mounts for the LS, he doesn't show them on his site but if you call he has them. I think that any LS headers that you could get your hands on should fit and any oil pan should work as the front of the suspension is ahead of the engine.

 

[Frankie]

Ford's new Coyote is a screamer, but I'm still a diehard Hemi fan. I especially like the new after market valve covers that resemble the classic 426 covers, and hide the coil packs.

the Reality is I really can't find fault with the LS, or the Coyote, but for 50 years of my 64 years, "Hemi" has been the way to go.

 

[Uhcoog1]

Bill at RMS even makes mounts for the LS, he doesn't show them on his site but if you call he has them. I think that any LS headers that you could get your hands on should fit and any oil pan should work as the front of the suspension is ahead of the engine.

That's awesome that he's supporting the swap. You should start a build thread, though maybe on another site (less off topic banter, I would imagine). Shoot me a PM if you already have one or have pictures, etc.